The replacement of the heavens and earth occur at the second coming, not AD70

[parousia70]

Anyway, there is a major difference between the world being enveloped by water and being purged by fire.

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Tell me, what do you suggest God meant when He said He would "NEVER AGAIN curse the ground for man's sake"?

When God says "never again", you don't think He can be trusted to keep that promise?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Tell me, what do you suggest God meant when He said He would "NEVER AGAIN curse the ground for man's sake"?

When God says "never again", you don't think He can be trusted to keep that promise?

God spoke to Noah immediately after disembarking from the ark, in Genesis 8:21, where all flesh had just been destroyed by a flood. God speaks to him about this, saying, "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

How was every thing living smitten? By a flood. Nothing could be clearer. He promised never to do this again. Reference the flood, he says, "neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." All the translations carry this important proviso.

Genesis 9:11-13 adds further support to this position, saying, "And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth."

 

[solid_core]

...at the second coming...

Did Jesus and apostles said the second coming and the end of the world will happen in their generation?

If they did, there is nothing to talk about and it obviously did not happen literally.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Did Jesus and apostles said the second coming and the end of the world will happen in their generation?

If they did, there is nothing to talk about and it obviously did not happen literally.

So,

1. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
2. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
3. Please list the Scriptures you believe support these?

 

[solid_core]

So,

1. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
2. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
3. Please list the Scriptures you believe support these?

"they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory…This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:30, 34

"…when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels....there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "
Mk 8:38

"... when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels…there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken…this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:24, 25, 30

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled… for the powers of heaven shall be shaken… This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:22, 26, 32

"...Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
Mt 26:64

"Then said he to the multitude..O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? And now also the axe is laid…every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Lk 3:7-9

-----

And many others. There is nothing in the Bible indicating that it should happen later than in their generation.

 

[sovereigngrace]

"they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory…This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:30, 34

"…when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels....there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "
Mk 8:38

"... when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels…there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken…this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:24, 25, 30

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled… for the powers of heaven shall be shaken… This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:22, 26, 32

"...Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
Mt 26:64

"Then said he to the multitude..O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? And now also the axe is laid…every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Lk 3:7-9

-----

And many others. There is nothing in the Bible indicating that it should happen later than in their generation.

So,

1. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
2. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?

 

[solid_core]

So,

1. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
2. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?

1. Past event
2. I do not know, kind of agnostic about this issue

 

[sovereigngrace]

1. Past event
2. I do not know, kind of agnostic about this issue

So you do not believe that Jesus, is coming again literally physically and visibly in the future, as He promised?

Also, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 states: “we which are alive and remain unto the Coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 states, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Paul says that those who are alive when Jesus comes will not die but be immediately changed and adorned with spiritual bodies. When did/do the living experience the change from a living physical into a spirit body of any kind? Must they die first, and their spirit be immediately translated into heaven?

 

[solid_core]

So you do not believe that Jesus, is coming again literally physically and visibly in the future, as He promised?

Also, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 states: “we which are alive and remain unto the Coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 states, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Paul says that those who are alive when Jesus comes will not die but be immediately changed and adorned with spiritual bodies. When did/do the living experience the change from a living physical into a spirit body of any kind? Must they die first, and their spirit be immediately translated into heaven?

I believe what Jesus and apostles said - that He will come in their generation, as He promised. Read the verses I quoted.

The letter 1 Thessalonians was written in the first century before the parousia. In about 50 AD.

You can notice in the first sentence that Paul includes himself to be alive in the time Christ will come for the second time.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I believe what Jesus and apostles said - that He will come in their generation, as He promised. Read the verses I quoted.

The letter 1 Thessalonians was written in the first century before the parousia. In about 50 AD.

When do the living today experience the change from a living physical body into a spiritual body?

 

[solid_core]

When do the living today experience the change from a living physical entity into a spiritual body?

Why should they experience it today? Paul was not talking to us.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Why should they experience it today?

So what physical hope is there for us today to possess a glorified perfect physical body like Jesus, as He promised?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I believe what Jesus and apostles said - that He will come in their generation, as He promised. Read the verses I quoted.

The letter 1 Thessalonians was written in the first century before the parousia. In about 50 AD.

You can notice in the first sentence that Paul includes himself to be alive in the time Christ will come for the second time.

So you do not believe that Jesus, is coming again literally physically and visibly in the future, as He promised?

 

[solid_core]

So what physical hope is there for us today to possess a glorified perfect physical body like Jesus, as He promised?

What promise given to us are you talking about?

 

[solid_core]

So you do not believe that Jesus, is coming again literally physically and visibly in the future, as He promised?

He did not promise that He will come after 21 centuries. He promised He will come in the generation He was talking to.

Can you quote His words that He will return in far far far away future?

 

[sovereigngrace]

What promise given to us are you talking about?

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is simply contrasting our current bodies which are “terrestrial” bodies with our new resurrection bodies which are “celestial.” He is showing the change that occurs at Christ’s Coming when one is traded for the other. He makes absolutely no suggestion that there are “terrestrial” resurrection bodies and “celestial” resurrection bodies. That is totally absent in the passage. The redeemed are one new man now and will be for all eternity. You cannot cut this body in two.

1 Corinthians 15:40-47 confirms, “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (perishable); it is raised in incorruption (imperishable): It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”

The “terrestrial” bodies are shown to be earthly and corruptible. The “celestial” ones are shown to be heavenly and incorruptible. In the resurrection the “terrestrial” is “sown in dishonour” and “in weakness” and is “raised in glory” and “in power.” The first body is Adamic and therefore sinful, the second is heavenly and perfect of the Lord.

 

[solid_core]

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is simply contrasting our current bodies which are “terrestrial” bodies with our new resurrection bodies which are “celestial.” He is showing the change that occurs at Christ’s Coming when one is traded for the other. He makes absolutely no suggestion that there are “terrestrial” resurrection bodies and “celestial” resurrection bodies. That is totally absent in the passage. The redeemed are one new man now and will be for all eternity. You cannot cut this body in two.

1 Corinthians 15:40-47 confirms, “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (perishable); it is raised in incorruption (imperishable): It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”

The “terrestrial” bodies are shown to be earthly and corruptible. The “celestial” ones are shown to be heavenly and incorruptible. In the resurrection the “terrestrial” is “sown in dishonour” and “in weakness” and is “raised in glory” and “in power.” The first body is Adamic and therefore sinful, the second is heavenly and perfect of the Lord.

What leads you to thinking that Paul is talking about our bodies or about us today?

 

[sovereigngrace]

He did not promise that He will come after 21 centuries. He promised He will come in the generation He was talking to.

Can you quote His words that He will return in far far far away future?

Acts 1:11: “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return.

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to Pretrib and Preterist beliefs, the second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70? Of course not! That is absurd!

Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him? Of course not! That is absurd! Equally, did the Gentiles also wail because of him? Of course not! That is absurd!

Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

The Scriptures talks much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.

Jesus explains in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid!. It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

This secret is only in regards the time of His coming, not the reality of it.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 26:64: “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

This is repeated in Mark 14:62: “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:26–27: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

 

[sovereigngrace]

What leads you to thinking that Paul is talking about our bodies or about us today?

So what hope is there for us today over the grave?

 

[solid_core]

Acts 1:11: “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return.

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to Pretrib and Preterist beliefs, the second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70? Of course not! That is absurd!

Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him? Of course not! That is absurd! Equally, did the Gentiles also wail because of him? Of course not! That is absurd!

Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

The Scriptures talks much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.

Jesus explains in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid!. It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

This secret is only in regards the time of His coming, not the reality of it.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 26:64: “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

This is repeated in Mark 14:62: “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:26–27: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Do you agree that Jesus and apostles said it will everything happen in their generation? We cannot move next, if you do not answer this.

If they did, then we must look for what really happen in their generation and explain their prophecies posteriori.