• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Featured The replacement of the heavens and earth occur at the second coming, not AD70

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by sovereigngrace, Feb 14, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Matthew 24 (and its parallel accounts Mark 13 and Luke 21) has confused many Christians over the years, and led to much debate. Bible students have rightly wondered: 'what is it speaking about?' and 'when was or will it be fulfilled?' They want to know: 'is Jesus speaking of one event, or is He speaking of two or more events?' 'Is He talking about the past, namely AD70, or is it speaking about the future, and return of Christ, or is He speaking about both?' 'If He is speaking of both, where does one description finish and another start?'

    If we approach this chapter without considering what the disciples actually asked Christ, if we interpret it in a theological vacuum, or if we try to understand it without a good understanding of other relevant Scripture, then we will likely arrive at all types of erroneous conclusions

    I’ve noticed a disturbing tendency of late how many Premillennialists and Preterists are increasingly trying to change the commonly accepted literal physical meaning of “heaven and earth” to spiritualize them away as opaque abstract occurrences in order to fit their innovative speculative theology. But the clear, plain, straightforward and consistent understanding of them over the years has been to view them the way they are described – literal and physical. There is no reason to understand them otherwise.

    The Greek words interpreted “heaven” and “earth” are ouranos and. Interestingly, any time they are coupled together in the same passage they exclusively refer to the literal physical natural cosmos. Of the 59 mentions in the New Testament, they all describe exactly what the outside of the box advertises, and what most ordinary unbiased students would understand, as “heaven” and “earth.” These two Greek words describe the heavenly realm and the globe of the earth.

    Philippians 2:10 is the only slight variation, although it is only a technical difference, where a literal reading of the text should read ‘earthly’ (epigeios) and ‘heavenly’ (epouranios). However, both significantly were derived from the same two repeated Greek words used elsewhere to describe “heaven” and “earth” – ouranos and gē. What is more, of the 6 references to “heavens” (plural) and “earth” all use these two same Greek words.

    Preterists spiritualize these physical realities that we enjoy with the human eye in order to justify their mistaken belief that Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are wholly historic records referring to AD70. They argue that these figuratively represent Christ’s judgment of Jerusalem because of its rejection of Him, in order to sustain their position. They reject the idea that they are describing the climactic coming of Christ, the end of the world, and the wholesale regeneration of creation. Many Futurists relate these chapters to the end of a future seven years tribulation. But they have to spiritualize the language because a literal reading of it would immediately forbid Premillennialism. After all, these same texts would strongly deny survivors populating a future millennial earth, as the whole natural realm that we see and live in would be totally removed. Both of these positions are therefore untenable.

    The detail described, and applied to Christ’s coming, relates to His one final future coming of the Lord. The detail is literal. It is climatic. It is cataclysmic. It sees the removal of the bondage of corruption (all the awful result of the fall) from this earth and the cosmic planets. It also sees the regeneration of this current earth and its replacement with a new perfect order. This beautifully correlates with other climatic Scripture that shows a cosmic conflagration when Jesus comes.

    Matthew 24:35-51: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

    The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

    Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

    Mark 13:31-37: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

    Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

    Men can impose whatever opinions they want on Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, but the only safe and trustworthy interpreter of these passages is Scripture itself. As you piece this whole subject together, it is crucial to bring as much relevant or corresponding sacred text to the table as possible for serious analysis. The informed Bible student will (or should) immediately turn to 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5. As you look at these two passages you are immediately struck by the fact that the writers use the same type of verbiage and similar climactic detail. It is interesting that other related words are attributed to the all-consummating event in view. Few could objectively question that we are looking at a literal event and at the magnificent coming of Jesus Christ in the future in all His climatic power and glory.

    Let us establish a few clear absolutes:
    • First of all, we are looking at a sudden, climactic and unexpected event for the wicked. It is also an expected and long-anticipated event for the righteous.
    • Secondly, all of these passages describe Jesus coming at the end of time in unparalleled historic power and glory.
    • Thirdly, reconciling all the relevant texts together shows that we are looking at the final and eternal removal of corruption and the final and eternal introduction of incorruption.
    • Fourthly, this is clearly not a localized event. (1) The very use of “heaven and earth,” without any attached qualification, allows us to understand this as a universal event. (2) The repeated literal meaning of the two Greek words when combined together supports this conclusion. (3) This is reinforced by the fact the recipients being warned are not merely the residents of the city of Jerusalem, as Preterists argue, but a global audience. As Luke 21:35 states: “For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” This could not be clearer! Only the partial observer would or could) argue otherwise.
    • Fifthly, when talking about the removal of the current “heaven and earth,” the 5 major similar texts, describing regeneration of both at the coming of the Lord, use the same Greek word parerchomai indicating the ‘passing away’ of the current corrupt natural arrangement we are experiencing now and its replacement with a brand new incorrupt creation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

    Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

    The new heavens and new earth are such a stark contrast to this current present evil age that is blighted by all the result of the fall, including the existence of Satan. The new arrangement is especially noted for “righteousness.”

    Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all deterioration. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the Coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed/regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

    Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth [Gr. ] and the heaven [Gr. ouranos] fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. ]: for the first heaven [Gr. ouranos] and the first earth [Gr. ] were passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

    Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

    The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

    Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

    · No more dying.
    · No more crying.
    · No more pain.
    · No more sorrow.
    · No more curse.

    While the elect of God finally enters into eternal bless, the wicked correspondingly experience eternal torment. They are shown to be banished into everlasting punishment.

    The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying. The final goal is the final creation of a new heavens and new earth characterized by justice, righteousness and perfection.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  3. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    The disciples asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words. Premils and Preterists only see one question. The record proves:

    Matthew 24:3 records:

    1.
    Tell us, when shall these things be?”
    2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

    Mark 13:4 records:

    1.
    Tell us, when shall these things be?”
    2. and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

    Luke 21:7 records:

    1.
    Master, but when shall these things be?”
    2. and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

    Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the Second Coming. Notwithstanding, there is much detail about the days that precede His return.

    The word telos, used in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and 15:24, is also found in the above passage being coupled to, and prefixed with, the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

    Premils and Preterists do not believe that “the end” refers to the actual end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It refers to the completion. It is the termination point of a thing.

    When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then theologians universally agree it is talking about “the beginning” of time/this age/creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this, many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason probably is because it cuts across a lot of end-time theology they have been taught. However, both should be treated similarly.

    Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).
     
  4. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Many Bible students (including Preterists and Premillennialists) dive into Matthew 24 without recognizing the intro to Christ's comments in Matthew 23. There He talks about 2 events - AD70 and His climactic return at the end of time.

    Jesus said in Matthew 23:37–39: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

    Jesus, first of all, speaks about the destruction of the temple in AD70, as a result of Israel's unbelief. He then talks about a future climactic day in the future when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Here were two key events that would happen in the then future. The disciples were obviously inquisitive as to when these would happen. They then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words. Matthew 24:3 records:

    Matthew 24:3 records:

    1. Tell us, when shall these things be?”
    2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (age)?”

    This proves that the disciples were enquiring about the realization of these two aforementioned days. They wanted to know about their fulfillment. Sadly, Preterists and Premillennialists each ignore the other's events relating to the past and the future. Both are therefore missing the context and meaning. The context proves that Israel will be forced to cry "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" at Christ's future "parousia," at "the end of the age.”
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  5. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The questions that Preterists carefully ignore are:

    In what way did “heaven and earth … pass away” in AD70? In what way did this notable cataclysmic event “come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth … as a snare”? Surely it is plain from the text and history that this is not a localized event but rather a global event at the end of time?
     
  6. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

    396
    +424
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    It surprises me that so many accept as literal, the flood of Noah, yet they rush to figurative commentary when it comes to the Olivet discourse. AD 70 is magnified and the end of the world is trivialised.

    I was having a discussion once concerning "the stars falling from heaven" (Mark 13:25) Some were holding forth about leaders getting the sack, and others, thought it was was referring to space junk landing on the ground. When I suggested multiple asteroids I got the same reaction as Noah got when he said "rain." Sigh, :sigh: I think we should join the 'Fellowship and Games' forum SG.
     
  7. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    You are absolutely spot on! Nothing is straightforward in its context and meaning. Nothing is literal. There are no clear or consistent interpretive rules in Preterism. They seem to make it up as they go. I have noticed that Preterists tend to avoid most of the difficult questions that forbid their doctrine.

    The most troubling thing for me is that they are fixated with the coming of Titus in AD70. This is the pivotal moment of history and all they want to talk about. This undermines the first and second advents and the centrality of our Lord in Scripture. Titus is constantly magnified, and Christ is constantly minimized.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  8. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +1,727
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Exactly as 2 Peter 3:1-7 tells us!
    But do not use the term 'end of the world', as it never ends, Eccl 1:4, it is just remade after the Millennium.
    Also note that Peter confirms all the 100+ prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the forthcoming world changer by fire from the sun. All prophesies that will literally be fulfilled. Isaiah 30:25-30, Malachi 4:1, Psalms 50:1-3, +
     
  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    But the new earth is pristine. It is devoid of the bondage of corruption. It is regenerated by fire and brought back to its Edenic form. This is the opposite to the Premil expectation. We have the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale submit to Christ in righteousness (as Premils portray) to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." Sadly, this is all done with Christ at the helm. The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”

    This has to be the greatest falling away in history. It is the biggest religious deception in history. It is the most pronounced religious circus in history. It makes Christ out to be deceived - believing He had mass allegiance when in fact he had a millennium full of phonies. His outreach to the nations is a complete bust. It makes His efforts out to be a failure. His attempt to reign in righteousness, glory and power is an unmitigated mess.

    So much for the perfect pristine paradise of unparalleled, historic and wholesale submission to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ Premil millennium!!!
     
  10. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Do you believe this earth will be regenerated by fire at Christ's return?
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +1,727
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    A rather peculiar question! Fire doesn't regenerate; it destroys.
    Jesus comes in glory, not fire. Fire will happen on His Day of wrath, as over 70 prophesies say.
    Which will be years before the Return. Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 15:1

    After that terrible world changing Day, the Lord will send rain to regenerate the holy Land; Isaiah 44:3, Zechariah 8:12
     
  12. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Does the fire obliterate the earth when Jesus comes as a thief in the night? If not, what does it do?
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +1,727
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Here are some prophesies about the Lord's Day of fiery wrath:

    Psalm 65:1-3 The Lord springs into action! His enemies scatter like smoke and the godless are destroyed before Him. The righteous are happy and praise God.

    Isaiah 66:15-16 The Lord will judge with fire...He will test mankind, many will be slain by Him.

    1 Peter 4:12-19 Do not be afraid of the fiery ordeal that comes to test everyone. Judgement is coming, continue in your faith, entrust your souls to Him, your Maker will not fail you.


    Jeremiah 30:7 How awful is that Day, it will be a time of anguish for Jacob, [His Israelite people, faithful Christians] yet they will come through it safely.

    Isaiah 24:6 A curse covers the earth, its people suffer – their numbers dwindle, only a few are left.

    Isaiah 10:19 ....forests and pastures will be suddenly devastated, only a few trees will remain.

    Isaiah 29:4 Judah will be brought low, the few survivors will hide underground.

    Isaiah 29:22-23 This will be no time for Israel to be shamed, they will regard the Lord with awe.
    Zephaniah 3:8-10 The whole earth will be burned by the fire of My anger....then I shall purify the speech of the peoples, that they may call upon the Name of the Lord. My worshippers, now far off, will bring offerings to Me.

    Ezekiel 34:12 I shall rescue My sheep from wherever they have been scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness. [His sheep- John 10:1-27]

    Isaiah 45:20 Gather together and come near, you survivors of the nations.

    Isaiah 58:11-12 The Lord will guide and satisfy you in the sun scorched Land. You will rebuild the ancient ruins and restore the houses and towns.

    Psalms 69:34-36 The Lord will deliver Zion and rebuild the towns of Judah. His [righteous] people will settle there and possess the holy Land.

    Ezekiel 36:36 The nations around that remain, will know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate.

    Ezekiel 6:8-14 As the slain fall around you, you will know that I am the Lord. But among the nations, there will be some of you that will survive. They will remember Me; those of My people, scattered in exile, when I remove their idolatrous hearts. They will loath themselves for the evils they committed and know My threats were not in vain. Ref: REB. NIV. Some verses abridged.

    And when it is understood what the Lord will use on that terrible Day, it becomes clear how all these prophesies will be literally fulfilled.
     
  14. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    We are all familiar with these passages. What I am asking is, what do they mean to you?
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +1,727
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    That Day; the Sixth Seal, will be the next prophesied event. It will change the world and set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

    Did you carefully read those verses? I doubt if they are familiar to you or any Christian, or if they are, then do you fully understand what they are saying?
     
  16. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    You are dumping a whole lot of non-related Scripture into your future millennium. Premils must do that because they have no scriptural corroboration for their future millennium. The thousand years are not mentioned anywhere else in the rest of the Bible. They fail to see the symbolic setting of Rev 20, the figurative sense of a thousand in the Bible and the several recaps in Revelation that describe the intra-Advent period.

    Just like the Preterists are obsessed with the coming of Titus and AD70, Premils are obsessed with a future millennium. Most of the Scripture you furnish has absolutely nothing to do with the second coming. I note that you do not even try to exegete the chapters mentioned.

    What about real clear unambiguous second coming passages? They are all climactic. They forbid survivors. Once the ark door is closed that is it. It is too late. Anyone left outside of the Ark (Christ) is destroyed. That is what happened in Noah's day, and that is what Jesus said will happen again.

    Joel 2:11 says, “And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

    His face manifests the shikinah of God. Whilst the Premillennialist accepts that the earth flees from His glory at the end of Satan’s little season it negates that reality at His Second Coming. Is His glory any different? Why didn't the heavens and the earth flee from His face then? After all, the brightness of His coming should hardly be diminished at any time. Scripture would see to locate the fulfilment of Revelation 20:11 at the second coming of the Lord Jesus.

    2 Peter 3:10-13 supports this, saying, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

    How can anyone survive this? They cannot! It's impossible! Well the second coming is the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

    I Thessalonians 5:2-7, which closely parallels 2 Peter 3, corroborate the idea of the immediate and total destruction of the world/wicked, saying, the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.”

    The Coming of Christ is here (as 2 Peter 3) likened to the appearance of “a thief in the night,” thus reinforcing the swift and unexpected nature of this climactic event and the attending judgment. Moreover, the narrative demonstrates that the devastation that accompanies this climactic event is instantaneous and that it involves “sudden destruction.” Its focus is directed fully and entirely upon the sum-total of the wicked, not merely a percentage of them. This group that is referred to as “they” who “shall not escape” relates to the aggregate Christ-rejecting community alive at His return. It is they alone that experience immediate and “sudden destruction” which “cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child”; and “they shall [assuredly] not escape.” This climactic event pulls down the curtain on time and concludes the affairs of this life.

    I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. Furthermore, we learn that the swiftness that the travail of childbirth comes upon a woman will be the way destruction suddenly hits the wicked. It is not saying that the whole child-birth experience is like the coming of the Lord, which would be needed to allow for the Premil understanding. That is not found in this text. In doing this they diminish the sudden nature of the destruction.

    II Thessalonians 1:4-10 any clearer: when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming firetaking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.”

    This is total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

    Revelation 6:13-17 records: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, andhide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

    This is total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

    Revelation 19:11-16 mirrors this passage, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

    This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

    If you take this out of the Premil armory there is nothing left. The whole Premil doctrine hangs upon a thin frayed thread. It enjoys no other support in Scripture. It solely and exclusively depends on the correlation and chronology of the Rev 19-20, which clearly doesn't exist.
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +1,727
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Firstly; I am not a pre-mil believer. This term applies to those who think the Lord will 'rapture' them to heaven before anything bad happens.
    My belief is that the world will be dramatically changed by the forthcoming Sixth Seal event, but many; maybe half of the population will survive.
    Nowhere does the many prophesies about that terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, say; total wipe out of humankind. You make that up. You also confuse the Return and Armageddon with the Sixth Seal.

    This truth is easily proved by how the world will establish a One World Government, soon to be ruled by a powerful and charismatic man. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12-13
    But we Christians, will live in all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26, +
     
  18. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +259
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    That is classic Premil. But the only way that Premil survives is by ignoring the multitude of texts that forbid the doctrine. Scripture repeatedly depicts the second coming as climactic, with zero survivors. Your avoidance of them above is an evidence of this. That is why so many people are abandoning Premil.
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +3,079
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Do you believe the Heavens and Earth that came into existence AFTER the Flood were the same Material Heavens and Earth Created in Genesis, or were they a Brand New Material Creation, that fully replaced the Pre-Flood heavens and earth that perished, as Peter States in 2 Peter 3:5-7 ?
     
  20. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

    396
    +424
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Of course I believe what came into existence after the flood were the same material! Don't treat me like a fool! However, St. Peter is using the flood as a precursive description of the end of the world. In that case I believe it will be a new earth.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...