• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.
  7. There has been an addition to the announcement regarding unacceptable nick names. The phrase "Let's go Brandon" actually stands for a profanity and will be seen as a violation of the profanity rule in the future.

LDS The Reliability of the Bible

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Yodas_Prodigy1, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. Yodas_Prodigy1

    Yodas_Prodigy1 New Member

    67
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Why should we believe that the Bible is in any way in error or unreliable ("not translated correctly”)?

    There are tens of thousands of manuscripts of scripture dating back to the second century. Additionally, the Church Fathers quoted scripture liberally. Between these two very large sources of scripture, the Bible is found to be very reliable. Dr. Dan Wallace from Dallas Theological Seminary is a great resource on Textual Criticism. A person may learn Koine Greek easily with the numerous seminaries and on-line classes. The thought that the Bible was translated from its native languages to Latin then English, or into other languages before English is not representative of the facts.

    With the amount of data out there, textual critics are able to put together within about 0.5 % the actual autographs of the New Testament. Those scriptures that are questionable are documented as so within the Bibles, such as the woman caught in adultery and a significant portion of Mark 16.

    There are tens of thousands of manuscripts as well as a liberal amount of quoting of scripture by the Church Fathers.

    Regarding the Old Testament, we have the reliability of the Jewish copyists. And fortunately, copies were kept in various places. We also have the Septuagint, which was translated a 100 to 200 years before Christ.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

    +7,262
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Democrat
    We have pretty much, no autographs which is simply because papyrus is so perishable. The fact is that the copies have text variation in virtually all of them but they are meticulously accurate and the text variation isn't cumulative, it's just a mark of human handling. The Masoretic Text for a long time only went back as far as the 10th century, then they found the Dead Sea Scrolls. After years of the texts being with held for public consumption when they finally emerged you find normal text variation going back before the first century.

    The most important thing to remember about both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures is that they are living documents. That is, they have been a part of living communities their entire history. The tradition of faithfully preserving sacred text was inherited by Christians since so many early Christians were Jewish early on, and the practice of counting words and letters made the process extremely reliable.

    I did want to mention, that does not dismiss the problems with the later part of Mark 16. Even solid Calvinists and evangelicals don't believe it belongs there. The woman caught in adultery in John's gospel while problematic, doesn't really look like an addition. It does seem out of place but it still appears in the earliest manuscripts available.

    Taken together the Scriptures are the best preserved documents from antiquity, there is no close second. Reliability is in the eyes of the beholder I suppose but I really don't get much out of textual criticism, it has tunnel vision for problems and grossly neglects the meticulous way the Scriptures were preserved and the seriousness of Jewish and Christian scholarship in their preservation.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  3. Noxot

    Noxot Supporter

    +2,366
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    we also have the Holy Spirit who is better than the entire universe. in fact you can't understand the bible clearly without God because no one knows himself better than himself. you can see things in ways you would otherwise not thanks to God. so you can see spiritual influences in various things that people do.

    if what we have as the highest of highs is the bible then we have nothing. if what we have is God then we have all things. the bible is very reliable but it's a stumbling block just like many things can be when we are blind.
     
  4. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✞ Christian ✞ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

    +5,628
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    MOD HAT ON

    So, what is the debate with LDS/Mormons that you are proposing? Can you state a position you are taking? Remember, officially the LDS use the KJV of the Bible - albeit with typically rather different explanation on the verses and often with exposition or additional quotes from the JSV. Also, let us remember part of this forum's SOP:​

    • Debates are only between orthodox Christian members and members of the specific non-Christian religion or faith being challenged.
      MOD HAT OFF
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  5. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

    +7,262
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Democrat
    Such a puzzling question, I would be interested in the answer.
     
  6. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

    +7,262
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Democrat
    I'm still puzzled as to how this relates to LDS, but I think I know. The Scriptures were meticulously preserved and are identified with Christian history, going all the way back to the first century. The Book of Mormon on the other hand shows up during the frontier period of American history as the result of Joseph Smith having them transcribed at the direction of Joseph Smith looking into a hat at seer stones. The Book of Mormon lays claim to 2 and a half millennia at least, with the only source being Joseph Smith himself.

    I'm purposely going to avoid the Koran since it's a much different situation and not the subject of the thread. I've avoided these kind of questions since they are unlikely to gain much serious attention but since the subject came up and I choose to participate, I wanted to make clear my views of the comparison of BOM and the Scriptures.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  7. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    +355
    United States
    Mormon
    Married
    When a book is translated into another language there is usually some loss of meaning. Individuals sometimes have different meanings for the same word. One of the earliest translations of the Bible into English is the Wycliffe Bible. It was translated in 1388 and is much different than more modern translations. Different religious groups use different translations of the Bible which they believe to be more correct than others. Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints use the King James version of the Bible with headings, footnotes, Bible dictionary, concordance etc. particular to our beliefs.
     
  8. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

    +1,903
    Christian
    Married
    OP:
    LDS Article of Faith #8 (italics mine, to relate to the OP):
    8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

    The Book of Mormon has no "translated correctly" distinction.
     
  9. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

    +1,903
    Christian
    Married
    The great thing about the Bible is we have tens of thousands of copies and fragments from which to discern what was written.

    The BOM has what? ZERO! o_O
     
  10. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    +486
    Mormon
    Married
    With all your copies of copies of copies, you have no originals. Reliable Jewish copyists made mistakes of 2 kinds. By mistake, and purposefully.

    For instance, Jesus was the most celebrated holy man in the history of the world. His name is not even mentioned once in the OT. Cyrus, the pagan savior of the Jews was known hundreds of years before his life, but not the most important person ever born on the earth. And he was even a Jew himself.
     
  11. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    +486
    Mormon
    Married
    There are zero originals of any page of the bible. Zero!
     
  12. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    +486
    Mormon
    Married
    A certain common sense says that if you translate a book from copies, into hundreds of various versions you are going to get what we have today. A messy situation where the KJV says one thing and the EVR says a completely different thing.

    For instance take Colossians 1:15 and compare. It is interesting to see the difference.
     
  13. Yodas_Prodigy1

    Yodas_Prodigy1 New Member

    67
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Amazing... Jesus was mentioned hundreds of times in the Old Testament... Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, Psalm 68, Isaiah 9:6, the Angel of the Lord, Zechariah 9-14... And the list is so much bigger... All over Genesis... It takes discernment and illumination from the Holy Spirit to see these... Think Jehovah.... or Think YHWH....
     
  14. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

    +1,430
    Mormon
    Single
    1 Nephi 49:9 -

    9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

    1 Nephi 4

    Your average anti-Mormon work would respond to this passage by chanting "Steel didn't exist in Old Testament times! The BoM is false!".

    Thing is...

    Job 20:24, KJV

    24 He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.

    Job 20

    Whoops...

    "Steel" is referenced in the KJV rendering of the Old Testament.

    ...And not just once, either.

    Scriptures Search Results

    The anti-Mormon works that chant about how the BoM is supposedly false would also be forced to reject the KJV by their own same standard; the authors of these works usually either ignore what's right in front of them or engage in some sort of double-standard, never realizing that either choice nukes their credibility.
     
  15. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

    +1,903
    Christian
    Married
    LOL. This just shows how foolish your arguments are - you are trying to discredit one of your own 4 standard works!
     
  16. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    +486
    Mormon
    Married
    How bout a plain prophecy that names Jesus by name, the man that created the world, and the most holy man to live in the world? Not one time in the OT.
     
  17. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    +486
    Mormon
    Married
    No, I am just answering your statement. We live with the reality that the bible has not been translated correctly in all of its versions. You do not. And again, you reflect my argument, by telling me my argument is foolish instead of countering my argument with an your own argument. No counter argument, I win again.
     
  18. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

    +1,903
    Christian
    Married
    You get your winner's blue ribbon by participating in the thread, I guess?

    Which "version" of Greek, Aramaic, and/or Hebrew is not translated correctly?
     
  19. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

    +1,430
    Mormon
    Single
    How about responding to my post above?

    No one else has.
     
  20. Yodas_Prodigy1

    Yodas_Prodigy1 New Member

    67
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    It is always good to show how little you guys know about the Bible...

    Isaiah 7:14
    Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Matthew 1:23

    “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
     
Loading...