"The Reform of the 'Reform'" inches ahead...

[PassthePeace1]

Sounds like they're returning back to orthodoxy. *ducks*

 

[PassthePeace1]

But in the early Church, the Eucharist was a more "horizontal" worship experience, and one of the goals of Vatican II, I was told, was to bring the liturgy closer to the liturgy of the early Church.

I understand what your saying, and in some ways agree that one of the intents of VII was to move closer to the Mass of the early Church. However, the way VII was implemented was to much of a distrubtion from the TLM, it destroyed that organic flow that is suppose to happen with any reform, and while the essentials remained, it still resulted in a changed of the whole nature of the Mass. Also the way the implementation was handled, allowed more of a modernist concept of how the horizontal aspects of the Mass should be expressed, than any sense of rediscovering expression from a true antiquarian philosophy.

 

[Anygma]

I agree that it is important for people to experience God's presence during Mass (even though He's present in the bread and wine, people need to have that inner knowing which only comes from experience.)

Obviously I am coming from a different place than many people here, but what I find helpful in experiencing God's presence at Mass is intimacy.

That's why I find so many of the attempts to further distance God from the congregation as discouraging to reverence.

How do we foster intimacy? By becoming like the early Church. By fostering community.

Maybe I'm a contrarian, but I think there are many more people like me than there are people who want to erect more barriers between God and man.

When I was a child, I always thought the paten was somewhat like a guillitone. It seemed threatening and unfriendly.

you find that small plates or shallow bowls look like guillotines?
http://www.angelqueen.org/mass/images/patten.jpg

are you referring to the monstrance maybe? http://frtim.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/monstrance2.jpg

 

[Fantine]

you find that small plates or shallow bowls look like guillotines?
http://www.angelqueen.org/mass/images/patten.jpg

are you referring to the monstrance maybe? http://frtim.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/monstrance2.jpg

When I was a child it was completely flat, circular, and gold plated. As it came under my chin, about 1/8 of an inch from my skin, it looked very much like the blade of a circular saw, or the blade of a very large pizza cutter.

 

[Anygma]

When I was a child it was completely flat, circular, and gold plated. As it came under my chin, about 1/8 of an inch from my skin, it looked very much like the blade of a circular saw, or the blade of a very large pizza cutter.

ah, i can't say i ever had that experience, i never received on the tongue until i had babies. then i had no choice since i had both my hands full, even if i could free up one hand, it wouldn't have been the proper way to receive.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

This whole "community-worship" and Horizontal way of viewing worship is exactly one of the main problems. I'm sorry but the progressives have failed utterly in their butchering of the Mass. This is no sense of the sacred or something holy. The Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostum and St. Basil have that. And a reverent Tridentine mass has that.

The Progressivized version of Mass as celeberated in the average Parish: no sacredness, no holiness, no sense that the Mass is the "WORK OF GOD." Not a community-oriented 'self-worship" fest about how to bond as community: it's parish not a social club about being "inclusive" or "not offending anyone." It's something holy, something set apart for God.

I don't care if the Pope puts the whole Holy Mass in Slavonic, with lots of incense and chanting, just as long as the sense of sacred is recovered, and [that] the Holy Mass [that] is celebrated [is restored unto a state, whereby it is celebrated] with the utmost reverence[--- a restored Holy, Dialogue-Tridentine High Mass-----restored as the Primary usage of the Roman rite] [with no guitars, tambourines, or awful 60's/70's hymns/music/songs that weren't particularly good, those songs almost always talked about "we" in the community and hardly ever about GOD. And they're often quite heretical anyways.]



I'd learn Slavonic, Latin, or Greek, if the Holy Mass is put in that: I don't care the Language, as long as it's very reverent and very "vertically" worship. I want to see reverent, holiness, something that makes the Mass seem "otherwordly" or even "heavenly" once again: I want a reverent vertically-focused, God-centred Tridentine Mass in any language or vernacular tongue, just so long as it's very reverent and Christ-centred. Not this new-fangled orgy of self-glorification and "community-worship."

 

[KeenanParkerII]

Shouldn't it be "the Reform of the Reform" is inching BACKWARD?

Well that depends on the view of the original poster.
Many people in the Church believe that the reform was a move backwards; therefore this is a move forward in recovering ground.

Demographics now show that people are attracted to the traditional Church, so even a liberal must consider that this would be a step forward from a democratic perspective.

 

[Memento Mori]

I think there's room for a little of both. Mass is about God, and not the community, but you can't take the community out of the picture either. One thing that has impressed me from the writings of Pope Benedict is that Catholicism is a communal religion. Most of its prayers are plural--our Father, pray for us, have mercy on us. In stark contrast to most Protestants, Catholics express their worship largely within the context of the whole family of God, not just their own little selves.

So I don't really mind things like holding hands or greeting each other in Christ (as I saw at the local parish). These things emphasize the community, but they don't take the focus off of God like some Protestant services do (you know, self-help style preaching and all that).

 

[KeenanParkerII]

^ Words of wisdom. (But I still don't like holding hands.)

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I honestly believe that we find more intimacy with God when we approach Him in terms of a "vertical" relationship, not "horizontal". The more reverent our approach to the Blessed Sacrament, the more intimacy there is with Him. Reverence does not distance us from God....in our faith, it does the opposite and brings us closer to Him.... just look at the Saints they loved God so much and many experienced His presence in the Blessed Sacrament but they were also very much into the tradition and the reverence, kneeling, etc....

I hope they'll actually do the "reform of the reform"...I think it will do a lot of good and this is what many people want, they want the Mass to be spiritual and holy, not ONLY about community. The world has lost its sense of the sacred and if the Church loses it, what then?

let us pray to Our Blessed Mother that she would help Pope Benedict lead the Church according to God's will

I also welcome the new translation of the Mass... http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/examples.shtml

 

[Fantine]

Most of its prayers are plural--our Father, pray for us, have mercy on us. In stark contrast to most Protestants, Catholics express their worship largely within the context of the whole family of God, not just their own little selves.

Isn't it interesting, then, that in some prayers (such as the Creed) all of the "we's" and "ours" are being changed to "I" and "my?"

 

[JimR-OCDS]

God dwells in each and everyone of us. Why wouldn't worship be horizontal, being thats where God dwells?

The idea that by having the priest back to us, and raising the host toward the sky to God who is out there in the cosmos somewhere, is flawed theology.

The reason the priest raised the host above his head, was so that the people could see it. With the priest blocking the view, people where unable to see the host, and depending on where you sat, depended on how much you donated to the Church. The wealthy had the choice seats up front, and the peasants sat in the back. Raising the host allowed everyone to see it.

Today, the priest doesn't raise the consecrated host higher than his head, because he is Christ en persona. The son doesn't raise himself above himself.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Isn't it interesting, then, that in some prayers (such as the Creed) all of the "we's" and "ours" are being changed to "I" and "my?"

Another reason I dislike the new liturgy that is coming down.

These were changed out of political compromises.

You'll also see that inclusive language was implemented in prayers like the Gloria.

"Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth" is changed to "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will."

Notice how they removed "his?" This would normally upset trads, but they believe its the literal translation from Latin, so its OK.

Of course my not liking the changes, upsets the trads, but thats a whole different issue.

Jim

 

[Fantine]

The "I" and "my" make me a little uncomfortable. Of course, I assume that many people are just like me in many ways.

My faith is uneven. There are parts of Catholicism that resonate strongly in my heart, soul, mind and body.

There are other parts of Catholicism that I'm like, "Well, these 500 people are standing next to me saying "WE believe," and personally, it doesn't make a bit of sense to me, and it doesn't resonate at all in my heart or soul, but BECAUSE there are 500 people next to me saying "WE believe" there is, after all, something of a consensus here and there are 2000 years of tradition, so because there are 500 people next to me saying "WE believe," and because I like and respect some of them, I am willing to entertain the possibility.

I presented two extremes--but be honest with yourself. Is 100% of your faith at that first level?

That's why I think the "WE" is so important. The Church, the body of Christ, is there to bolster your belief so that you can "entertain the possibility" and hopefully do better...

So if it were "I" saying "I" believe, those parts where I "entertain the possibility" would sound shallow and insincere in my ears...and I hate being shallow and insincere. But neither do I want to be a pod person. If entertaining the possibility is the best I can do on my own, I'm not going to spout lines like a parrot.

That's why I like "we." Surrounded by the "consensus" I can feel strong....on my own, I don't have the support...