The Red Dragon as China

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

The Red Dragon as China.

(Not to be entirely obvious here.)

If you say in a conversation "red dragon" as a code word for China, pretty much anyone will understand exactly what you mean. Red, Communism. Dragon, China's icon.

There are four further verses which would make this 'not so obvious':

Revelation 12:7-9

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Rev 13: 2

The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

Rev 13:4

People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

Rev 20:2

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.


Revelation 12:7-9 specifically points out 'the dragon' as being Satan. We do know, that the word 'Satan' means 'adversary', and this can be a generic term. We know this because we have all wondered why Jesus said to Peter, at a comment of his, 'Get behind me Satan'. Later on, we see where Peter says something and Jesus points out Satan really wants to get at him on that. So, while it is not beyond the realm of possibility, that Satan caused Peter to make both statements and Peter - in his pre-spiritually 'born again' state - blindly relayed what he heard from Satan. It is also well not beyond the possibility that this was merely Peter speaking in the flesh.

But, Revelation 12:7-9 goes and states that this is 'the Devil', Satan, which adds specificity to the verses.

I would suggest that, Satan, as the 'Prince of this World' appeared symbolically, as China in this verse, for some way of identification. That is to identify Satan as working through one of his vassal states - in this case, China - some manner of work on earth.

As we all, also know, Revelation is highly symbolic, and there are significant reasons for this. It is designed to evade analysis even by super smart celestial beings, such as Satan. And to not give people too much information before the correct time.

(Reasons for that is another matter, for another topic, another time, unless anyone wishes to discuss this aspect of the post, I am 'all ears'... ;-) )

We also all know the Satan in the garden was not literally a snake. Or, at the very least, we can very reasonably assume this.

Rev 13:2

The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.


Putting aside the possibility that this mention of the dragon is not the "red dragon" I was speaking of, I ask you: is there anyway we can say, post-Imperial China, Communist China, is giving any other nation or group of nations China's 'power, throne, and authority'?

Consider: if China went full on democracy and free markets, they would skyrocket. But, this would mean all of their regime members would almost certainly lose out, just as the Imperialist Chinese regime members lost out. And just as many lost out in political debacles since China turned Communist. (For instance, the 'Cultural Revolution' of Mao.)

An angle, the devil, would be sure to exploit, if it met his objectives. ('We are not unaware of the schemes of the devil', reader hear.)

What, instead, is happening? China is operating as a slave market for all of 'the West'. While they certainly steal technology and other forms of corporate and governmental secrets, they are holding their own nation back by operating as a vassal nation to these other nations.

Nations have thrones, nations have power, nations have authority.

Maybe the West, the 'first world' - including here, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan, albeit awkwardly, due to western bias - has some basis in Heaven? And maybe, China does not, any longer? They are not pagan, but as a strict regime stance, they deny the existence of God, or even the possibility thereof.

India, for instance, is largely 'pagan' in demographics, as is Japan, but neither nation categorically denies the possibility of God or Christ.

Not as an official stance of their regime.


Rev 13:4

People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”


Let us entertain for a moment, a critical thought many may never have considered before. Is it possible to worship a nation?

Can valid respect and love for one's own nation go too far, if that nation is not the Kingdom of God? Can it put a nation on a pedestal, and put its' needs and wants above that of the Kingdom of God, above that of Heaven?

Rhetorical questions. I won't answer the obvious.

Regardless, I would suggest that both answers are correct, in regards to people literally worshiping 'the beast' and 'the dragon'. The 'beast', I will argue is a nation or a consortium of nations which, ultimately, have their lineage back to ancient Rome. Not an unpopular reading of Scripture.

But, ultimately, in nation worshiping, and whatever else you want to call it - remember the statue, or idol, of Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, which Daniel interpreted - that worship goes to the own of those nations, Satan. The prince of this world.


Rev 20:2

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.


This verse, in Rev 20:2, I do not have much comment on, as I already gave the reader a lot to think on. The problem with drawing conclusions for people, is then, they will not own the conclusions they come to. If you think out the matter your own self, then you deserve credit! You own the conclusion. You made your way across the dark room by your own self, because you, sir, or maam, are a light!

And you should see that in your self.

If you are...

 

[Lost4words]

China, the dragon? Lol

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some Dragon movies are pretty kewl. I like the 1981 version. I was fortunate enough to have seen it on the big screen......

You're banned (a fun game) (31)

Banned for daring to speak against LLoJ, the great Dragonslayer......

"TAIL OF THE DRAGON" Revelation 12:4

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

China, the dragon? Lol

*shrug*

I think your inability to state your own beliefs is likely just a fake persona you keep to troll people.

You probably have another account here.

'Woe to those who laugh now'...

Regardless, could maybe not be, but certainly a valid possibility, Joker.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Some Dragon movies are pretty kewl. I like the 1981 version. I was fortunate enough to have seen it on the big screen......

Very good movie.

My favorite "dragon" has to be Bruce Lee.

Not my favorite martial artist, but very close.


Problem with the series is they tend, like so many shows, to highlight sociopaths in a celebratory manner. Though, as I work in security, I find the themes in the BSU work very engaging. And the symbolism of the series, especially Red Dragon is fascinating.

The main villain in it wants to 'change', and in a manner resemblance to the transfiguration, an all powering, world changing type of change beyond the mere physical. Covered over with darkness, however.

 

[Lost4words]

*shrug*

I think your inability to state your own beliefs is likely just a fake persona you keep to troll people.

You probably have another account here.

'Woe to those who laugh now'...

Regardless, could maybe not be, but certainly a valid possibility, Joker.

Really? Because i question your belief?

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Really? Because i question your beliefs?

No.

Guess again.

If you figure it out, please keep it to your own self, as that would be off-topic.

If you have nothing meaningful to add to this topic of the OP, please do not reply, as well.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Really? Because i question your belief?

Bluntness be said, China as the Red Dragon is one of the funniest things I can think. But, not because it is untrue.

Shhh..

 

[Lost4words]

No.

Guess again.

If you figure it out, please keep it to your own self, as that would be off-topic.

If you have nothing meaningful to add to this topic of the OP, please do not reply, as well.

I told you what i thought. As it was against your beliefs you dismiss it. Ah well, maybe someone will come along and agree with your belief about dragons / China / Revelation.

If you want to know the truth about Revelation here is a good read for you:


The Book of Revelation Was Written Before AD 70


God bless you friend.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I told you what i thought. As it was against your beliefs you dismiss it. Ah well, maybe someone will come along and agree with your belief about dragons / China / Revelation.

If you want to know the truth about Revelation here is a good read for you:


The Book of Revelation Was Written Before AD 70


God bless you friend.

That preterist view has a number of things going for it. I do not need a long page denoting how the book could be written earlier, however. That is not my problem with it.

The world is full of dating claims, this is hardly a major one to consider.

The variations possible on that view are very, very many, however. So, as you do not know my viewpoints, I do not assume to know yours.


I suppose my first question is:

When were the Beast and False Prophet thrown into the Lake of Fire?

According to you.


And, when did Babylon fall, according to you?


Identifying the prophecy of the destruction of Israel, and identifying Nero as the anti-christ are two things this view has. It also provides an easy explanation for the continuity of the Kingdom. But, really, the possible variants there are many, so what is your view?

Do you believe the 'Holy Roman Empire' and 'Catholic Church' were of the 'rock not made of human hands'? Do you accept their authority as 'Christ reigning with the saints'?


I suppose, that is enough questions to get started. I am interested in meaningful discussion, to refine my own beliefs. I am soliciting diverse opinions to do so. So that I may resolve many of these possibilities I have been cycling around.

Just FYI, you did not 'challenge my beliefs', you would have to be able to touch my beliefs to be able to challenge them. I did not provide them. You would not be able to guess them. They are not on some webpage somewhere, that people would stumble across.

There is plenty which goes on which earth does not know about, and which is not on the internet, nor in libraries.

 

[Lost4words]

I am a partial preterist. I dont believe end of times in this age.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I am a partial preterist. I dont believe end of times in this age.

The vast majority are partial preterists. I, even, am a partial preterist, though in an entirely alien way from your viewpoint (likely, though you have not really stated it).

For instance, I consider *likely* that the Black Death was described in one of the plagues described before the Three Woes. And, I consider *likely* WWII and Communism was cover in Revelation, before the Second Woe. I consider *likely* some other major historical events and movements were covered there. Including the very concept of the modern perspective, where we do not view the Heavens today, as we did even five hundred years ago.

Further, by almost anyone's standards, some prophecies were fulfilled with the destruction of the Second Temple, and the devastation of Israel. Though, there is no reason to argue that this, therefore, fulfilled all of the verses preceding 'the Millennium'. If one attempts to keep Revelation in the default order, with which it is expressed. While it is, remotely possible, to try and wrench out Revelation 20 and put it somewhere before in Revelation, this seems very unlikely, and poor exegesis. Excepting for people's needs and desires to 'have answers' and 'justify the Catholic and Orthodox Church' -- neither of which should need justification, if they are valid churches.

 

[Lost4words]

The vast majority are partial preterists. I, even, am a partial preterist, though in an entirely alien way from your viewpoint (likely, though you have not really stated it).

For instance, I consider *likely* that the Black Death was described in one of the plagues described before the Three Woes. And, I consider *likely* WWII and Communism was cover in Revelation, before the Second Woe. I consider *likely* some other major historical events and movements were covered there. Including the very concept of the modern perspective, where we do not view the Heavens today, as we did even five hundred years ago.

Further, by almost anyone's standards, some prophecies were fulfilled with the destruction of the Second Temple, and the devastation of Israel. Though, there is no reason to argue that this, therefore, fulfilled all of the verses preceding 'the Millennium'. If one attempts to keep Revelation in the default order, with which it is expressed. While it is, remotely possible, to try and wrench out Revelation 20 and put it somewhere before in Revelation, this seems very unlikely, and poor exegesis. Excepting for people's needs and desires to 'have answers' and 'justify the Catholic and Orthodox Church' -- neither of which should need justification, if they are valid churches.

No answer there. Just talk!

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

No answer there. Just talk!

I have answers, and answer them when questioned, specifically, but I do not have all the answers.

I do not condemn people believing they have answers, or having a need for answers, but when they settle hard on answers which are false, then I condemn them. Just as I condemn my own self for having settled too hard on answers I have later found to be false.

I still have a need for more answers, and, as I have written multiple times, this is the very reason why I am posting and listening to other people's opinions on these subjects.

I am not ashamed of my beliefs, and so believe that it is good that I offer them to be tested.

I do not think you should be ashamed of your answers, as you effectively 'swear by Heaven' on them, and I would like to hear your own perspective. But, you keep refusing to offer it, beyond, really, just pointing me to a webpage on 'Revelation being written before 70 AD', and stating you are a partial preterist -- which could mean anything.

I think, if you were really strong in confidence on anything else, you would not hesitant to offer them to me, just as I offer evidence to you.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

If you say in a conversation "red dragon" as a code word for China, pretty much anyone will understand exactly what you mean. Red, Communism. Dragon, China's icon.

That's really not good enough. Red has been the color of revolutionaries in all parts of the world, and China has used that color as its banner since its last revolution. It's not just a communism thing. As for the dragon, it's not their chosen symbol, either. That's not what they put on their flag. We think of them that way simply because they still believe that dragons existed. Europeans used to believe in dragons, also, but now they and their American descendants believe in dinosaurs.

You can't put too much stock in simple word association with unknown origin. If you say Gog and Magog, then people naturally think of Russia, but that idea goes back to a time not so long ago when someone simply suggested it with no basis in fact. The idea stuck, and now everyone thinks it's true simply because everyone else seems to think it's true.

Hardly anyone is aware, now, that Lucifer is not a bad thing, nor is it the name of the Devil. Everyone thinks it is, because they think that everyone thinks it is. The term was used sarcastically, just once, to mock a fallen king, and now everyone thinks that Lucifer, the Morning Star, is Satan (see Job 38:7, 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 2:28 and Revelation 22:16).

I don't think you've established good reasoning for associating China with the red dragon of Revelation.

 

[Revealing Times]

The Red Dragon as China.

(Not to be entirely obvious here.)

If you say in a conversation "red dragon" as a code word for China, pretty much anyone will understand exactly what you mean. Red, Communism. Dragon, China's icon.

There are four further verses which would make this 'not so obvious':

Revelation 12:7-9

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Rev 13: 2

The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

Rev 13:4

People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

The Red Dragon of Rev. 12 is different from the Beast of Rev. 13 and the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17. they are THREE SEPARATE ENTITIES, and that is why all three are designated by what the CROWNS are on. The Red Dragon (Satan) is over this whole world, thus he is shown to be over everyone of the Mediterranean Sea Region Beasts of which the Rev. 13 Beast is the 7th and Last Beast to arise.

Thus the Red Dragon's Crowns are on the HEADS..........He is/was over every power in the region, and in reality he is over every power in all lands, just as Satan told Jesus in Luke, 4, all of this is mine to do as I will with, if you will only bow down and worship me all the Kingdoms of the whole world will be yours. So the CROWNS are on the Heads.

The Rev. 13 Beast has the CROWNS on the 10 Horns because they FREELY gave their power unt him, he is a European Union President. Thus Satan (being over this world) gave his seat unto him. He thus will SPEAK and BLASPHEME because he is a Human, whereas the other Beasts were a King that came to power and a King that Fell from power, or a succession of Kings, he will be the ONLY King, that is at the helm when he Conquers Jerusalem/Mediterranean Sea Region to become a BEAST and he will also be at the helm when he LOSES DOMINION. No other Beast is like unto this, tus he rules for a short 42 Months. He will be cast straight into hell unlike the other Beasts who lost Dominion but stayed around as powers.

Dan. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. (Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome were not done away with immediately after they fell, Babylon was where Alexander the Great died, they others are still kingdoms to this day (Iran = Persia, Greece and Rome). The Anti-Christ will be cast into hell as soon as he dies, we see in verse 11 his BODY IS DESTROYED !! Rev. 19:20 agrees !!

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So this MAN who speaks Blasphemes is a World Leader in the End Times, a MAN that comes to power out of the old Fourth Beast (Europe) according to Dan. chapter 7 and has to be born in Greece according to Dan. chapter 8. He brings the Beast System back to life from the Mortal Wound the Church gave unto it, the gates of hell could not overcome the Church, we turned the Fourth Beast Rome from a God hater unto a Conveyor Belt of the Gospel, LOL, this is the truth. Rome was the center for Christendom, the Beast received a MORTAL WOUND, so after the Rapture happens, and the Church is in Heaven, the Beast will once again come to life when it Conquers the Mediterranean Sea Region AND Jerusalem, see Dan. 11:40-43, see Dan. 9:27 and Dan. 8:25, THE MANY means it's not just Israel getting Conquered its MANY Nations in the Region who come to trust this tyrant.

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan.11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north(Anti-Christ) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land (Israel), and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon (Jordan/Petra). 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

THE MANY in Dan. chapters 8 & 9 are clearly EXPLAINED in Dan. chapter 11. He doesn't just Conquer Israel, he Conquers the whole Mediterranean Sea Region just like Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome did. Only Jordan escapes, that is where Israel Flees unto.

The Scarlet Beast in Rev. 17 is Apollyon, he is a Demon Satan placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region as a Principality/Power like Paul spoke of. He was placed in the bottomless pit by God, thus HE WAS..........IS NOT (He's in the bottomless pit)..........YET IS (Will be released in Rev. ch. 9). Apollyon was the Prince of Persia in Dan. ch. 10 that withstood Michael/God. If you notice there are NO CROWNS in Rev. 17, Apollyon is over nothing in reality, he is over the Region, but Satan is still over him in the Spiritual world, and in the Physical world he is not a physical being, so he is not over anything on earth, besides a Spiritual Realm.

To be honest brother, China means nothing here, it's not even relevant as per the 200 million horsemen, that is an Angelic Army that delivers Plagues from God.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

The Red Dragon of Rev. 12 is different from the Beast of Rev. 13 and the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17. they are THREE SEPARATE ENTITIES

Just to be sure you read me correctly, yes, I know.

I did not state otherwise, nor imply otherwise.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

That's really not good enough. Red has been the color of revolutionaries in all parts of the world, and China has used that color as its banner since its last revolution. It's not just a communism thing. As for the dragon, it's not their chosen symbol, either. That's not what they put on their flag. We think of them that way simply because they still believe that dragons existed. Europeans used to believe in dragons, also, but now they and their American descendants believe in dinosaurs.

You can't put too much stock in simple word association with unknown origin. If you say Gog and Magog, then people naturally think of Russia, but that idea goes back to a time not so long ago when someone simply suggested it with no basis in fact. The idea stuck, and now everyone thinks it's true simply because everyone else seems to think it's true.

Hardly anyone is aware, now, that Lucifer is not a bad thing, nor is it the name of the Devil. Everyone thinks it is, because they think that everyone thinks it is. The term was used sarcastically, just once, to mock a fallen king, and now everyone thinks that Lucifer, the Morning Star, is Satan (see Job 38:7, 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 2:28 and Revelation 22:16).

I don't think you've established good reasoning for associating China with the red dragon of Revelation.

No, I have not entirely established good reasoning for associating China with the Red Dragon of Revelation, though it is true, if the Beast is associated with the 'first world', or any major power of the 'first world', that China has given their power and authority over to the 'first world', a detail I wrote on, but you did not address.

I am merely offering a possibility here, I am not entirely convinced.

[To be clear, the term 'Lucifer' was draped over the term 'morningstar' in that verse, not the other way around. So, the actual text reads 'morningstar', not 'lucifer'. The Catholic Church draped over the 'lucifer' term in order to obscure that it states 'morningstar'.]

As for the standard of 'Lucifer' being associated with Jesus, I am well aware of that, however you have to follow the very same standard to prove that. While your verses seem to prove it, which verses I am aware of, you do not mention, that, in Job, the 'morning stars shout in glory at the creation' are most likely the angels. And, elsewhere, the angels are most likely also called 'the sons of God', as well as Jesus.

So, Jesus is *The Morningstar* and *The Son of God*, but that does not mean there are not other 'sons of God' and 'other morningstars', even if Jesus is 'the main one'. The 'first and the last'. As it stated even of Jesus, 'he was a little lower then the angels' on earth, but after the crucifixion, 'was crowned with glory' and put above them, so God says, 'let all the angels worship him'.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

So, Jesus is *The Morningstar* and *The Son of God*, but that does not mean there are not other 'sons of God' and 'other morningstars', even if Jesus is 'the main one'.

My only case was that Lucifer is generally thought of as being the devil, when the Bible makes no negative use of the term, much less a Satanic one (even the sarcastic use of it, from which the devilish understanding derives implies that the Lucifer is a positive thing, by implication). This was presented as support for the antithesis to your opening statement, "If you say in a conversation "red dragon" as a code word for China, pretty much anyone will understand exactly what you mean. Red, Communism. Dragon, China's icon." If I said Lucifer, people would naturally think of the devil, and they'd be wrong.

 

[Revealing Times]

My only case was that Lucifer is generally thought of as being the devil, when the Bible makes no negative use of the term, much less a Satanic one (even the sarcastic use of it, from which the devilish understanding derives implies that the Lucifer is a positive thing, by implication). This was presented as support for the antithesis to your opening statement, "If you say in a conversation "red dragon" as a code word for China, pretty much anyone will understand exactly what you mean. Red, Communism. Dragon, China's icon." If I said Lucifer, people would naturally think of the devil, and they'd be wrong.

Lucifer was Satan's (Adversaries) original name, like Michael and Gabriel were names for two other angels. It means "shining one" or light bearer in Hebrew. In the Greek Septuagint it literally means Morning Star or bringer of the dawn.

So Lucifer is the devil or adversary and likewise Satan means the same thing, but if we want to call Satan by his ACTUAL NAME we have to call him Lucifer.