The Reality of Universal Salvation in Scripture (2)

[Floatingaxe]

ALSO WORTHY OF NOTE:

Check out Peter's first evangelizing under the Holy Spirit's power. Tells the whole message without any threats of eternal suffering. Or Paul's message on Mar's hill? Again - never mentioned. Do you think all the apostles omitted this because they were in rebellion to the Holy Spirit? If not, please don't call those of us who omit ET rebellious to the Holy Spirit!

blessings,
- Byron

Peter, and the apostles spoke and wrote only what the Holy Spirit uttered through them. If eternal punishment is not included in any particular message, so what? The audience needed to hear what God gave the speaker to say.

No one should be second-guessing that. I certainly don't.

 

[Zecryphon]

There is no mystery in eternal punishment. It has no purpose other than making people suffer unmercifully, no goal beyond sheer torture, no end, no justice, no love, no mercy. There is nothing holy nor righteous about it and it is the most evil concept anyone could possibly ever imagion.

There is a big big difference between a little suffering mixed with pleasure and a suffering that continues for eternity.

I am always amazed that anyone can believe in such a thing as a loving God who tortures his creation beyond anything any of us could ever imagion. Even more so [if that is possible] when they have the nerve to use the word justice in the same breath.

There is no mystery in eternal punishment. It has no purpose other than making people suffer unmercifully, no goal beyond sheer torture, no end, no justice, no love, no mercy. There is nothing holy nor righteous about it and it is the most evil concept anyone could possibly ever imagion.

I see ET as being very just, because the people who are suffering for eternity are career, life-long criminals against God. These are people who committed many sins every day of their life and did not repent of them or say they were sorry and did not have faith in Christ for salvation. These are hardened criminals if you will. What would you think of an earthly judge that let a career criminal go free, because the judge didn't think that throwing him in solitary confinement for the remainder of his days was the merciful thing to do? Would you think that judge was a just judge who upheld the law? Or would you think that judge failed to do his job? If we expect our earthly judges to punish lawbreakers, why do certain people find it so offensive that God will punish people who break His laws?

 

[martymonster]

I see ET as being very just, because the people who are suffering for eternity are career, life-long criminals against God. These are people who committed many sins every day of their life and did not repent of them or say they were sorry and did not have faith in Christ for salvation. These are hardened criminals if you will. What would you think of an earthly judge that let a career criminal go free, because the judge didn't think that throwing him in solitary confinement for the remainder of his days was the merciful thing to do? Would you think that judge was a just judge who upheld the law? Or would you think that judge failed to do his job? If we expect our earthly judges to punish lawbreakers, why do certain people find it so offensive that God will punish people who break His laws?

What about those who never heard of Jesus Christ, ie the vast majority of humanity, are they hardened criminals against God too?

 

[Zecryphon]

If you want to be specific it says that the work of "every man" will be tried by fire in Pauls letter. In revelation we see it says that every man shall be judged according to his works.

So if we say the man is judged by what he has done or his deeds are judged we are really saying the same thing. But it does not say those who are in Christ, that is but yet another addition from man to try and limit the scope of the passage to those of like mind while sending thier neighbors to eternal torment.

There is only one foundation, all things are built on this foundation either they abide by the saying of Jesus [gold and silver] or they do not [hay and stubble]. It is not limited to those who go to some specific church or believe some pet doctorine but every man woman and child.

As for the in Christ aside from the fact it does not appear in the verse mentioned we can see elsewhere that God shall be all in all. Now maybe it is just me but that seems to include everyone.

1Co 3:11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

The scriptures are clear about the foundation that the works to be tested will be built upon, Jesus Christ. Christ is the foundation of the works of to be tested, this is not a statement that applies to every man, but it only applies to those who are in Christ as Christ is the foundation that their works are built upon.

 

[Zecryphon]

What about those who never heard of Jesus Christ, ie the vast majority of humanity, are they hardened criminals against God too?

What about those who never heard of Jesus Christ, ie the vast majority of humanity, are they hardened criminals against God too?

Find out for yourself. Test them against the 10 Commandments. See if they pass. If not, they are criminals against God. Once you've established this and have shown them how they are criminals against God, then you can ask them where they think they will go when they die. Heaven or Hell? Since most people operate under the assumption that the good go to Heaven and the bad go to Hell, they will say they deserve to go to Hell. This is where the good news of Christ comes into play. Law and gospel working together through the Holy Spirit to bring people to faith in Christ. Not gospel sans the law. It never ends well when that is the approach.

 

[Zecryphon]

It is a very interesting subject, but the biggest problem with most peoples principals regarding interpreting the scriptures is that they leave out the spirit of God.

When I believed in ET (for a about 12 years) I learnt a few things and God even let me in on some little secrets but now that I believe in the reconciliation of all, He has let me in of some big secrets, for eg.

Adam and Eve were not created perfect in the image of God, Satan was not an angel named Lucifer and mankind does not have freewill.

I did not stumble across these ideas myself but read some teaching on it, if however these ideas did not have a lot of scriptural backing I would have been out of there, but now that I have learnt these things the scriptures have come alive!

What teachings did you read on these things?

 

[martymonster]

Find out for yourself. Test them against the 10 Commandments. See if they pass. If not, they are criminals against God. Once you've established this and have shown them how they are criminals against God, then you can ask them where they think they will go when they die. Heaven or Hell? Since most people operate under the assumption that the good go to Heaven and the bad go to Hell, they will say they deserve to go to Hell. This is where the good news of Christ comes into play. Law and gospel working together through the Holy Spirit to bring people to faith in Christ. Not gospel sans the law. It never ends well when that is the approach.

Actually I meant people like the Chinese and african's who up until only recently heard the name Jesus Christ and never heard of the 10 commandments!

 

[Kerai]

What about those who never heard of Jesus Christ, ie the vast majority of humanity, are they hardened criminals against God too?

To add to that Marty, there wasn't even a complete bible until around 350 A.D.. So there are all those thousands upon thousands of people who never had the complete word of God. How could they ever connect the dots and know the full measure of his love.

 

[martymonster]

What teachings did you read on these things?

Will have to find the link for that.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Look Folks....those people that believe in ET...will never believe anything else....God has hardened them....you aint gonna change their mind.

Show em a verse from the bible that every knee will bow and every tounge will confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father

Then show them the other verse where every person that confesses Jesus is Lord will be saved.....and they still will not believe, even when confronted with the word of God......

They aint gonna change because you cannot soften what God is hardening.....

Of what consequence is their destruction to us? Surely you know they are no more lost to God than Saul of Tarsus was.....

Show them the scripture once....then do not argue with them if they still do not believe the Gospel....remember who has blinded them.....

 

[Kerai]

Find out for yourself. Test them against the 10 Commandments. See if they pass. If not, they are criminals against God. Once you've established this and have shown them how they are criminals against God, then you can ask them where they think they will go when they die. Heaven or Hell? Since most people operate under the assumption that the good go to Heaven and the bad go to Hell, they will say they deserve to go to Hell. This is where the good news of Christ comes into play. Law and gospel working together through the Holy Spirit to bring people to faith in Christ. Not gospel sans the law. It never ends well when that is the approach.

Zec, I know your not saying that we are under the 10 commandments or that it should even be a rule of measurement. I know you believe we all live under Grace now. I know you do.

 

[Zecryphon]

Zec, I know your not saying that we are under the 10 commandments or that it should even be a rule of measurement. I know you believe we all live under Grace now. I know you do.

Zec, I know your not saying that we are under the 10 commandments or that it should even be a rule of measurement. I know you believe we all live under Grace now. I know you do.

Remember, we weren't talking about Christians, who are under grace. We were talking about those who had never heard of Christ, the unsaved. They are under the curse of the law.

 

[martymonster]

Look Folks....those people that believe in ET...will never believe anything else....God has hardened them....you aint gonna change their mind.

Show em a verse from the bible that every knee will bow and every tounge will confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father

Then show them the other verse where every person that confesses Jesus is Lord will be saved.....and they still will not believe, even when confronted with the word of God......

They aint gonna change because you cannot soften what God is hardening.....

Of what consequence is their destruction to us? Surely you know they are no more lost to God than Saul of Tarsus was.....

Show them the scripture once....then do not argue with them if they still do not believe the Gospel....remember who has blinded them.....

Yeah that's true, but God does use the foolishness of preaching and plus it's not just those in this discussion reading, it's others as well.

I've seen a few come to the knowledge of the truth before this way.

 

[Kerai]

Look Folks....those people that believe in ET...will never believe anything else....God has hardened them....you aint gonna change their mind.

Show em a verse from the bible that every knee will bow and every tounge will confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father

Then show them the other verse where every person that confesses Jesus is Lord will be saved.....and they still will not believe, even when confronted with the word of God......

They aint gonna change because you cannot soften what God is hardening.....

Of what consequence is their destruction to us? Surely you know they are no more lost to God than Saul of Tarsus was.....

Show them the scripture once....then do not argue with them if they still do not believe the Gospel....remember who has blinded them.....

I understand the reason for God hardening Pharaoh heart, to display his power and show Pharaoh that he is the true God. What to you think the purpose of God hardening these peoples heart would be?

 

[Zecryphon]

Actually I meant people like the Chinese and african's who up until only recently heard the name Jesus Christ and never heard of the 10 commandments!

Actually I meant people like the Chinese and african's who up until only recently heard the name Jesus Christ and never heard of the 10 commandments!

Go to Africa and China and tell them. Stop coming up with "what if" scenarios as a possible basis to not follow God, if you don't like His answer to your scenario. But to answer your question the Bible says all are without excuse for being ignorant about God.

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

[martymonster]

I understand the reason for God hardening Pharaoh heart, to display his power and show Pharaoh that he is the true God. What to you think the purpose of God hardening these peoples heart would be?

The same reason, so that we may see his glory!

Rom 11:32 For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Rom 11:33 O how deep are God's riches, wisdom, and knowledge! How impossible to explain his judgments or to understand his ways!


2Ti 2:20 But in a great house not only are there vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honor and some to dishonor.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Look Folks....those people that believe in ET...will never believe anything else....God has hardened them....you aint gonna change their mind.

Show em a verse from the bible that every knee will bow and every tounge will confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father

Then show them the other verse where every person that confesses Jesus is Lord will be saved.....and they still will not believe, even when confronted with the word of God......

They aint gonna change because you cannot soften what God is hardening.....

Of what consequence is their destruction to us? Surely you know they are no more lost to God than Saul of Tarsus was.....

Show them the scripture once....then do not argue with them if they still do not believe the Gospel....remember who has blinded them.....

You must believe in your heart...not merely confess and not just that Jesus is Lord! There is no verse that says what I highlighted above.

Romans 10:8-9
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach):
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[martymonster]

Go to Africa and China and tell them. Stop coming up with "what if" scenarios as a possible basis to not follow God, if you don't like His answer to your scenario. But to answer your question the Bible says all are without excuse for being ignorant about God.

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Can you give me an example of these things that people see that would make them go, Oohh!, there is a God and here are His laws!

I seriously hope you are not talking about that rocks and trees thing!

 

[Kerai]

Remember, we weren't talking about Christians, who are under grace. We were talking about those who had never heard of Christ, the unsaved. They are under the curse of the law.

You don't believe that Christ became a curse for us and in doing so, redeemed us from the law. Gal.3:13. There can not be two covenants in affect at the same time. The old written code was removed that we might serve under the new covenant, grace.

 

[Kerai]

The same reason, so that we may see his glory!

Rom 11:32 For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Rom 11:33 O how deep are God's riches, wisdom, and knowledge! How impossible to explain his judgments or to understand his ways!


2Ti 2:20 But in a great house not only are there vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honor and some to dishonor.

I got cha! " but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."