The Reality of Universal Salvation in Scripture (2)

[Zecryphon]

No, the second death is not the death of the LOF.

Jesus Christ is the one who will abolish ALL death. Those scriptures I quoted said that.... the last enemy to be destroyed is death. If you want to get technical, in Rev, the first death is the first enemy to be destroyed. It's not the last.

Jesus Christ is the one who will abolish ALL death.

So then given the scripture in Rev. 20:14, Jesus is the Lake of Fire?

Those scriptures I quoted said that.... the last enemy to be destroyed is death. If you want to get technical, in Rev, the first death is the first enemy to be destroyed. It's not the last.

With that understanding explain Rev. 20:14.

 

[Zecryphon]

Yes, well now you have to prove that 'forever and ever', means never ending (in time that is) cuz it's a time thing, right?

No I don't have to prove that, because the Lake of Fire exists outside of time. The second we step out of this life, we enter God's realm of eternity where He is in full control. I gave a link to a page that did prove what you want me to prove, but you won't go there because of a personal bias. Stay in the dark on this if you like, makes no difference to me.

 

[Zecryphon]

Come on, this is sooo old. The same thing could be said from this side..

Okay, if it's so old and you're so sick of hearing it where are the scriptures that say when people get out of the Lake of Fire? You've had plenty of time to find them since the request was last made. Do you have them yet? Please post them for all of us to examine.

 

[martymonster]

We cannot claim who and who made it to heaven or is still in the grave. (Hell is still closed, by the way.)

There were Jews who came to Christ.

And we cannot place blame on God for His Justice, for assigning it with a human measure or value. God's Justice is PERFECT. We need not worry about it!

Yes and if we don't have worry about something, we can believe anything can't we!

 

[freeed]

This is where ET doctrine begins to crumble. How can a little sin natured, rebellion riddled child be allowed into God's "Holy" heaven. Wouldn't that cause a catastrophic calamity of some sort? This is where theology just had to draw a line because it got too insane. Little unbaptized children burning in hell??? "No way - no matter what the bible says about sin - God just wouldn't do that".
People pick and choose where to draw the line. No one who believes in eternal hell fire severs their hand or foot to be sure of avoiding it. Why? It hurts too much - that's why! They 'believe', but not enough to endure that much pain even for a few days. Amazing.
But to that same person, believing that all the lost are in more pain than that forever is easy. Why? Because it doesn't hurt them.
I'm waiting just for one of you to cut something off (please post pics) to prove your devotion to this false ET doctrine. If not - it's just a lot of hot air and 'literal' when convenient and 'metaphoric' when inconvenient.

blessings,
- Byron

oh amen...hot air is right! this doctrine works! that's why it's still around. if all else fails, scare the hell out of em! lol. Do ppl really think that god looks at us like we're all such a bunch of smarties that we can possibly figure out His plan to the point of saving ourselves? Craziness. I think when he looks at us, he see's very small children who He loves with such a love that our own love for our children pales in comparison. What we know, or don't know or believe or don't believe has nothing to do with His love for us. Jesus did the work for us, we are free to live, love, and learn. Truly good news indeed.

 

[intricatic]

Yes they are totally out of context according to your standards.
the above is actually quite a tame treatment of the scriptures, there a some absolute doozies in the new testament, but is they were up to you they would never be there!

God's word is not contextual, it eternal.

God deals in principals!

Actually, there are a good deal of debates regarding how the apostles used scripture in their writings. Some people see them as contradictory, but for the most part, they're executing a sound and proper use of types. It has little to do with ignoring context; an understanding of context can generally shed light on what a type is in scripture.

 

[martymonster]

Babies and young children have no accountability, therefore no remorse and therefore no repentence comes from them. God is merciful to those who are unable to account for their sin...including mentally challenged and comatose children. The blood of Jesus Christ covers them.

We trust God to make provision for those who cannot suffer Godly sorrow and therefore come to repentence.

And the scripture to back up that assertion is?

 

[intricatic]

So let me get this straight. Those in the jewish faith that were tortured and murdered by Hitler in the Haulocast, went to a continuous burning hell? And what's the purpose of this again? You really see no difference in a God that allows temporary suffering for the sake of learning opposed to a God who tortures ppl unendingly? Makes Hitler look like Mickey Mouse.

I don't make that call, nor do I have any certain idea about it. I do know that an eternal Hell is discussed in scripture, though, and God's righteous judgment knows what's just for each individual person. However, by that same measure, a God who would needlessly allow suffering for no greater good, when all people will rightly be allowed salvation in the end, is not only unjust, but completely inconsistent. Do I have any earthly idea what Hell is? Not really, although I know a few basic ideas about it that scripture serves to tell.

 

[Zecryphon]

I don't believe that babies go to "hell", and "heaven" doesn't matter all that much to me, because I don't believe this life is about a destination(a place where good ppl go to be separated from all those bad ppl)....it's all about God and being with God, not a destination. The bible is clear that nothing, absolutely nothing can separate us from the love of God...that includes death. So babies who die are with God, not because they are babies, but because they belong to God, as all His creation belongs to Him.

And since His creation belongs to Him, He can do with it as He sees fit, right?

 

[Tkjjc]

I don't make that call, nor do I have any certain idea about it. I do know that an eternal Hell is discussed in scripture, though, and God's righteous judgment knows what's just for each individual person. However, by that same measure, a God who would needlessly allow suffering for no greater good, when all people will rightly be allowed salvation in the end, is not only unjust, but completely inconsistent. Do I have any earthly idea what Hell is? Not really, although I know a few basic ideas about it that scripture serves to tell.

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

 

[Zecryphon]

Mat 4:23 Then Jesus travelled through all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the Good News of the Kingdom, and curing every kind of disease and infirmity among the people.

Mat 9:35 And Jesus continued His circuits through all the towns and the villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the Good News of the Kingdom, and curing every kind of disease and infirmity.

Mar 1:14 Then, after John had been thrown into prison, Jesus came into Galilee proclaiming God's Good News.

Mar 1:15 "The time has fully come," He said, "and the Kingdom of God is close at hand: repent, and believe this Good News.

Mar 10:29 "In solemn truth I tell you," replied Jesus, "that there is no one who has forsaken house or brothers or sisters, or mother or father, or children or lands, for my sake and for the sake of the Good News,

Wow, I get the distinct impression that Jesus had some good news for mankind.

Please explain to me how most of mankind burning in unspeakable agony is good news again?

Please explain to me how most of mankind burning in unspeakable agony is good news again?

The good news is that there is a way to avoid the fires of Hell through repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ, that's the good news. Without a real anger from God, without a real wrath from God, God is actually robbed of His grace. His free gracious gift of salvation isn't as sweet or as merciful, if the punishment is not as horrific as possible.

 

[martymonster]

Actually, there are a good deal of debates regarding how the apostles used scripture in their writings. Some people see them as contradictory, but for the most part, they're executing a sound and proper use of types. It has little to do with ignoring context; an understanding of context can generally shed light on what a type is in scripture.

It is a very interesting subject, but the biggest problem with most peoples principals regarding interpreting the scriptures is that they leave out the spirit of God.

When I believed in ET (for a about 12 years) I learnt a few things and God even let me in on some little secrets but now that I believe in the reconciliation of all, He has let me in of some big secrets, for eg.

Adam and Eve were not created perfect in the image of God, Satan was not an angel named Lucifer and mankind does not have freewill.

I did not stumble across these ideas myself but read some teaching on it, if however these ideas did not have a lot of scriptural backing I would have been out of there, but now that I have learnt these things the scriptures have come alive!

 

[firstborn888]

Bible study and/or bible school is in order here! LOL! Eternal punishment is an underlying message througout the entire Word of God!

I think some study IS in order. Throughout the OT there are only 2 scriptures used to 'prove' eternal torment doctrine. Daniel's age-lasting (olam - KJV = everlasting) shame and contempt and Isaiah's slain bodies on the ground with immortal worms painfully gnawing at their conscious dead bodies

Underlying message THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE??? Read Genesis 3. The entire account of the fall/curse. There is no hint of eternal torment there. That's THE ENTIRE ACCOUNT of the fall and resulting curses.

All curses to humans in the OT - Adam, Israel and even heathen nations are pertaining to this life - check it out. Eternal torment is never threatened.

The only way you could possibly say ET is a theme throughout scripture is to read it ALL with an ET bias to start out with.

Then you have Geheena fire, never mentioned to the Gentiles, spoken of 12 times by Jesus on 8 occasions and once by James (about the tongue - not eternal torment). Falsely translated 'hell' it is never spoken by Paul, Peter and in the entire book of acts (30 years of apostolic ministry) it's never mentioned.

ALSO WORTHY OF NOTE:

Check out Peter's first evangelizing under the Holy Spirit's power. Tells the whole message without any threats of eternal suffering. Or Paul's message on Mar's hill? Again - never mentioned. Do you think all the apostles omitted this because they were in rebellion to the Holy Spirit? If not, please don't call those of us who omit ET rebellious to the Holy Spirit!

blessings,
- Byron

 

[Floatingaxe]

So let me get this straight. Those in the jewish faith that were tortured and murdered by Hitler in the Haulocast, went to a continuous burning hell? And what's the purpose of this again? You really see no difference in a God that allows temporary suffering for the sake of learning opposed to a God who tortures ppl unendingly? Makes Hitler look like Mickey Mouse.

No one has the right to judge whether one finds heaven or judgment. (Hell is still closed, by the way.)

There were Jews who came to Christ.

We must all be very careful not to judge God, and declare Him anything but a perfect Judge. To evaluate Him according to human values is just wrong and proves one unknowledgeable.

 

[Zecryphon]

I'm not quite sure where you get this from her statement?


Good new, JESUS OFFERS SALVATION TO ALL HUMANITY

BAD NEWS IS THAT THOSE WHO REJECT THAT SALVATION WILL BE ETERNALLY SEPARATED - AS THEY DIDN'T WANT HIM IN THIS LIFE.

Nadiine, you're dealing with a guy who thinks that context doesn't matter. Why are you shocked at his reply? He read her statement like he obvioulsy reads everything else, out of context.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Where's the scripture??? you guys say one thing out of one side of your mouth and another out of the other side. Are babies deserving of hell or not?? you cannot have it both ways. I wouldn't be so quick to insult the "spiritual capabilities" of the mentally challenged. You guys think "intelligence" makes one accountable? What? So a certain intelligence level is the key to getting serious about getting the answers and getting them right? oh please...

so we have no exceptions to your "belief" system, oh wait but there's babies...no...they're born spiritually dead...remember? god doesn't know them...oh wait no...they're an exception tho...but what about mentally challenged? so god's blood only covers those who believe, EXCEPT for ppl who aren't "smart" enough to know god? you can trust that His blood covers certain ppl who don't follow your potion, but not others and especially not everyone?

No matter how you slice this, what you're saying isn't in the bible...at least give me the scripture that you've decided says all this.

OK, without the Scripture to back up our beliefs, but knowing Jesus Christ and being instructed by the Holy Spirit, you are free to believe that children and babies will go to hell because they have not repented of their sin.

Be my guest.

 

[martymonster]

The good news is that there is a way to avoid the fires of Hell through repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ, that's the good news. Without a real anger from God, without a real wrath from God, God is actually robbed of His grace. His free gracious gift of salvation isn't as sweet or as merciful, if the punishment is not as horrific as possible.

P...leaseee!! spare the preprogrammed christian responses!!

I regurgitated all the same garbage myself when I was an ET christian for over 12 years!

I've heard them all!

 

[Zecryphon]

You don't get it do you.

The bible says all souls are Gods.
It says that the soul that sins shall die.
It says that all have sinned.
It says that all shall die.

This is the very same all in all of these cases refering to every last man, woman and child who has ever lived.

It also says that all will be made alive.
It says that all will be tried by fire.
And that all shall be saved.

Perhaps you should try some context instead of pulling one verse out of your pet translation.

It says that all will be tried by fire.

No, it doesn't say that. It says the works of those who are in Christ will be tried by fire. Their works, not the people themselves.

 

[Zecryphon]

P...leaseee!! spare the preprogrammed christian responses!!

I regurgitated all the same garbage myself when I was an ET christian for over 12 years!

I've heard them all!

P...leaseee!! spare the preprogrammed christian responses!!

I regurgitated all the same garbage myself when I was an ET christian for over 12 years!

I've heard them all!

Refute it if you can and if you don't like the truth, there is an ignore button, use it.

 

[Soul Searcher]

No, it doesn't say that. It says the works of those who are in Christ will be tried by fire. Their works, not the people themselves.

If you want to be specific it says that the work of "every man" will be tried by fire in Pauls letter. In revelation we see it says that every man shall be judged according to his works.

So if we say the man is judged by what he has done or his deeds are judged we are really saying the same thing. But it does not say those who are in Christ, that is but yet another addition from man to try and limit the scope of the passage to those of like mind while sending thier neighbors to eternal torment.

There is only one foundation, all things are built on this foundation either they abide by the saying of Jesus [gold and silver] or they do not [hay and stubble]. It is not limited to those who go to some specific church or believe some pet doctorine but every man woman and child.

As for the in Christ aside from the fact it does not appear in the verse mentioned we can see elsewhere that God shall be all in all. Now maybe it is just me but that seems to include everyone.