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The REAL TRUTH about the Wrath

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by carlaimpinge, Jul 17, 2002.

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  1. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

    <SPAN class=title>The REAL TRUTH about the WRATH</SPAN>
    <HR SIZE=1>
    One of the subjects of debate concerning the timing of the gathering of the church is that of the wrath associated with it. This is based on the statement of Paul in 1 Thess.5.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Now every inconceivable idea concerning wrath has been stated EXCEPT that which has been stated in the context of the book by Paul. The wrath, which we escape, has been “assumed” to be divine wrath, satanic wrath, or man’s wrath depending on what position you take on the timing. The pre trib rapturists state it is ALL wrath for it is all his. That is, the whole 7 years of Daniel’s week. They state the seals are the opening of the wrath of the Lamb, which includes the trumpets, and vials, unto the revelation. The post trib rapturists state it is God’s wrath, which we escape, which is poured out at the 6th seal, along with the vials and not before. They state that we are subject to man’s and satanic wrath, but not God’s wrath. This puts their gathering at the 7th trumpet, after the sixth seal, before the vials, which START the wrath of God in their opinion.

    For the love of God, I have never been able to understand how anyone thinks they can tell the difference between the wrath WHEN “all” of it proceeds from God, due to his own sovereign authority in the universe. He delegates it. He is the author of all evil. (Amos 3:6) He “allows” Satan to disburse some, men to disburse some, and when, personally involved, has angels of his own, do it FOR HIM. Now, the Lord Jesus Christ will PERSONALLY disburse some of his own, AT HIS COMING. See Job 1-2, Exodus 12, 1 Chronicles 21, Psalms 78 and Rev.19.

    All of their speculation is nice, but it has nothing to do with what Paul SAID in the text. The statement is not “focused” on who’s wrath it is, to the exclusion of others. Paul’s statement has to do with wrath which is related to the day of the Lord. That is the contextual identification to the wrath mentioned. That is the wrath we ESCAPE, and WHEN it occurs. It is “wrath associated with a day”, whether it be divine, satanic, or man’s wrath. Those terms were just a ploy by individuals to throw the bible believers “off the scent of the truth of the text”. It has been IDENTIFIED as at the day of the Lord, which is characterized by Paul as the time of a woman in travail. THAT is the wrath we escape, which we are NOT appointed unto.

    Now bible believers KNOW what time that is. They know when that wrath occurs. There is no doubt about it. That is the time of Jacob’s trouble.

    Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

    Jeremiah 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: (Jer.30)

    That is the time, which is called a day, which is great, which is connected to the day of the Lord, by the synonymous term, “in that day”, used throughout the OT. Only a bible rejector doubts, distorts, and denies it, to promote his system of interpretation. The words, phrases, and identification is clear and plain.

    Paul not only calls it wrath, as in 1 Thess.5, but when FIRST introduced, was stated to be the “wrath to come” in the same book.

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    Notice again, there is nothing stated as to who’s wrath this concerns. It is a statement concerning deliverance from the wrath to come.

    Now that phrase is unique. The wrath to come is spoken of and IDENTIFED in three books by four different people. The books are Matthew, Luke, and 1 Thessalonians, by John the Baptist, Matthew, Luke, and Paul.

    Now that’s quite an assortment of people. John the Baptist first mentions it to the Pharisees at the initial proclamation of the gospel of the kingdom. He wanted to know “WHY” they were at his baptism. They rejected the counsel of God being not baptized with it. (Luke 7) Notice the text in Matthew.

    Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

    Flee? Where have you have ever seen that before. Who else stated something about fleeing? That’s right. The Lord Jesus Christ in the great prophecy of Matt.24. We KNOW “what” they’re fleeing from!

    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><IMG alt=:) src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->

    Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    The fleeing has to do with a time WHEN the gospel of the kingdom is being proclaimed. (Matt.3:2, 24:14) John wants to know “who” has warned them to FLEE!

    Ah, but that’s not the least of it. Matthew recorded it, and Luke also. You know who Luke is. He’s PAUL’s BUDDY! He ties it to the REVEALING of the Son of Man at the midst of the week, WHEN wrath comes on this people, and the days of vengeance TAKE place. This concerns the desolation of Jerusalem by INVASION.

    Let’s look at the verses.

    Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

    Luke 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

    Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

    Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    Well, I’ll be. Luke just put the “revelation of the Lord Jesus” at the MIDST OF THE WEEK, when they flee, just like Matt.24. But that’s not all. Notice the wrath and the days of vengenance that come at the desolation.

    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    Yes, he quotes John and calls it the wrath to come, also.

    Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

    Brethren, when Paul states the wrath to come, he is speaking of the same EVENT, which Luke, Paul, and John the Baptist are speaking concerning.

    All identify this term as the “time” when people are to “flee” from Jerusalem at the setting up of the abomination of desolation and the invasion of Jerusalem. That is at the midst of Daniel’s 70th week, and is also called by the Lord Jesus Christ, the time of great tribulation, which is synonymous to the time of Jacob’s trouble, and the woman in travail spoken of by Jeremiah and Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5.

    The wrath to come has been identified by biblical interpretation from the Holy Spirit of God through his words. It is the time of great tribulation which starts at the midst of the week.

    We are not appointed unto wrath.

    It “never” had anything to do with WHOSE WRATH it was, but WHEN it began.

    The body of Christ is delivered from it through gathering on the day of Christ. (2 Thess.2) The revelation of the son of perdition is connected to our gathering. That is at the MIDST of the week. We are not appointed unto it. Others are! It concerns “their” day, not “ours”. That is Pauline teaching and doctrine for the body of Christ.

    1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

    1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

    1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

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  2. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    I don't believe God's wrath is poured out at the 6th seal.
    &nbsp; I don't believe our gathering is at the 7th trumpet.
    Note that all it says is that Jesus "opens" the seals (Revelation 6:1). Does this mean that he is the one behind them or that he is at that point allowing Satan to bring them about? (Did Pandora bring about all the suffering that came from the box she opened?) Similarly with the trumpets. Are they expressing God's wrath or announcing events brought about by Satan's wrath?
    I believe the only wrath which is related to the day of the Lord is the wrath of Revelation 19:15, for note that no verse says or requires that the day of the Lord begin before the 2nd coming.
    How can 1 Thessalonians 5:3 be referring to Jeremiah 30:6-7 when the first says "they shall not escape" and the 2nd says "he shall be saved out of it?"

    Must 1 Thessalonians 5:3 be referring to Jeremiah 30:6-7 simply because they both refer to a woman in travail? Must it then also be referring to Jeremiah 49:24; Jeremiah 50:43; Psalm 48:6; Isaiah 13:8; Isaiah 42:14; and Galatians 4:19?&nbsp;&nbsp;

    Note that no verse says the time of Jacob's trouble is the day of the Lord.

    Note that no verse says the time of Jacob's trouble is the entire tribulation.

    In the&nbsp;mid-week view, will those who "obtain salvation" in the tribulation be "appointed to wrath?" How could that be when being "appointed to wrath" and "obtaining salvation" are mutually exclusive?

    "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

    Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), not one of which is poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

    I believe the gathering is at the destruction of the son of perdition because he is destroyed by Jesus' coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8), and we are gathered at Jesus' coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:29-31), and there's no 3rd coming. We Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).
  3. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

    One point for this man who can't read is enough.

    ...connected to the day of the Lord...
    Note that no verse says the time of Jacob's trouble is the day of the Lord.

    Jeremiah 30:7-8 identifies it as the day of the Lord. Notice the terms. DAY, GREAT, IN THAT DAY. All three terms identify the time of Jacob's trouble as occurring in the day of the Lord. They are used throughout the OT.

    He couldn't READ the verse. Simply amazing.
  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    As in the other thread, note the similarity between Jeremiah 30:7's "time of Jacob's trouble" and Daniel 12:1's "time of trouble," and between Jeremiah 30:7's "so that none is like it" and Daniel 12:1's "such as never was," and between Jeremiah 30:7's "he shall be saved out of it" and Daniel 12:1's "at that time thy people shall be delivered." Daniel 12:1 (and so Jeremiah 30:7) will occur after all of the events of Daniel 11, and will be right before Israel's resurrection (at the 2nd coming) in Daniel 12:2, just as Jeremiah 30:7 will be right before Israel's deliverance (at the 2nd coming) in Jeremiah 30:8.

    So Jeremiah 30:7's use of "great" and "day" doesn't require it refer to the entire tribulation: it is at the very end of it.

    Regarding the day of the Lord (the 2nd coming) itself, it is said "Great shall be the day of Jezreel" (Hosea 1:11). The valley of Jezreel is the valley of Megiddo, or Armageddon, where the nations will gather their armies for "the battle of that great day of God Almighty" (Revelation 16:14) at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19).

    So the tribulation will be great (Matthew 24:21), the time of Jacob's trouble at the very end of the tribulation will be great (Jeremiah 30:7), and the 2nd coming after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30) will be great (Revelation 16:14).
  5. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

    The man is a stumblebum in the word of God. (1 Peter 2, Isaiah 8)

    He thinks the time of Jacob's trouble is at the END of the week.

    He already identified it as the time of trouble spoken by Daniel. The Lord Jesus identified that TIME of TROUBLE, as the great tribulation. He referred to Daniel. He was NOT referring to the END of the week, but the MIDST of the week, at the abomination of desolation, stated by Daniel in chapter 11.

    THAT IS WHAT I TEACH. So does the word of God. The great tribulation, which is the time of Jacob's trouble, the time of trouble mentioned by the Lord Jesus Christ, STARTS with the abomination of desolation at the midst of the week.

    He doesn't even KNOW OR COMPREHEND what he states.

    The stumblebum thinks the time of Jacob's trouble is AFTER Dan.11, EVEN THOUGH, it has been IDENTIFIED BY THE LORD JESUS, as when the events of Dan.11 occur.

    He can't UNDERSTAND the verses. The Lord has blinded him to the truth, as he has so many others. (Isaiah 6,29)

    Good grief. What ignorance, illiteracy, and infidelity among "professed" believers. Living proof of the apostasy which Paul stated would come.
  6. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    Note again that Jesus said the great tribulation would begin at the AOD (Matthew 24:15, 21), not the time of Jacob's trouble.

    Note again that the Bible&nbsp;nowhere says the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7-8) will be the entire tribulation.

    Do you believe someone who rejects mid-week eschatology has "fallen away" from the faith, and so is damned forever? "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Hebrews 6:4-6).
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