The real sins of Sodom were greed and pride

[Kenny'sID]

I

I don't defend homosexuality because of other verses though am willing to keep an open mind on it as there is some debate amongst Christians in the context of those verses too


But does the Bible specifically mention homosexuality as the main reason?

Makes no difference if it does or not, anyone can see it was part of the corruption.

If not, do you think that makes it any less of a sin?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I also have noticed that some of the loudest churches railing against homosexuality or even trans ( which no idea if a sin or not) are often the ones where the leaders have many titles, apostle this, prophet that, and many say if you don't tithe you are sinning...(which isn't what Paul's letters say and those are the ones which tell us how church should be) . They rarely preach against the sins of pride and self sufficiency

Of whom in particular do you speak?

 

[George Antonios]

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah’s demise begins in the 18th chapter of Genesis when God told Abraham that he would destroy Sodom, but the destruction of the city takes place in the 19th chapter. Lot was the nephew of Abraham, and he lived in Sodom. Lot was a righteous man, but he remained in Sodom until the very end, and many of his actions indicate that he was trying to save Sodom from destruction. Apparently, Lot did not think that Sodom was all that bad.

When God told Abraham that Sodom would be destroyed, Abraham tried to bargain with God to spare the city, which means Abraham did not want to see Sodom destroyed. God agreed not to destroy Sodom if ten righteous men were found in the city. This suggests that sometime between the warning and the destruction, Abraham and/or Lot would have searched the city for ten righteous men since that was the deal. In searching for righteous men, they would certainly try to persuade some not-so-righteous men to be more righteous.

In conducting this search Abraham and/or Lot would have warned the people of the coming destruction since this was their best argument; but the real sins of Sodom were greed and pride; and being greedy, it would be difficult to convince these people to sacrifice some of their wealth to help the poor. Being proud, the people of Sodom would tend to reject any suggestion that their great city was displeasing to God. Abraham was an outsider, and Lot was viewed as an outsider.


When the angels came to destroy the city, Lot was expecting them. Lot even sat at the gates of the city waiting for these angels to arrive. This confirms that either Abraham or God warned Lot which would have led to the search for righteous men in the city. Lot was able to recognize that they were angels, which means that these strangers must have stood out in some way. Other people of Sodom must have also seen the angels, and the arrival of these unusual strangers would have triggered conversations across the city.

As word spread, and the people of Sodom talked about the strangers, some of the people of Sodom would start to become concerned about Lot’s warning. A crowd gathered at Lot’s house to find out who these strangers were. These concerned citizens couldn’t ask the question, “Are these angels of God, sent to destroy us?” They were too proud and they were not going to give that warning any credibility, so they asked a different question. In a typical arrogant fashion, they asked the question in a very clever way.


The crowd was trying to determine if these strangers were human. They were waiting to see the reaction of Lot and the reaction of the strangers. How did Lot react?


Lot was a righteous man, meaning he was a good man, and he must have loved his daughters greatly. Lot wasn’t actually going to send his daughters out to a mob. This mob was not interested in sex, and Lot knew this. Lot knew they were trying to determine if the visitors were angels. What Lot basically said was, “You can even rape and kill my own daughters, but whatever you do – WHATEVER YOU DO – DON'T MESS WITH THESE STRANGERS!”

Lot was trying to get the mob to back off, but his words confirmed to the crowd that these were angels of God who were sent to destroy them, and the people of Sodom became more hostile.

Notice that Lot went outside to speak to the mob. He even shut the door as if he was going to speak with them privately, away from the angels. Clearly, Lot wasn’t afraid of these people, in fact, he was trying to help them. Lot was trying to get his friends and neighbors to back off, and he wanted to do so without the angels hearing what he said to the crowd, and what the crowd said to him.

This is why Lot had waited at the gate for the angels to arrive so that he would be the one to greet them. Lot wanted to save Sodom otherwise he would have simply fled the city when God or Abraham warned him. Lot wanted to plead for the city of Sodom, but first he had to get the angels to his house, and he also had to keep them away from the people of Sodom who had rejected his warning.

Notice that when the mob threatened Lot, it had nothing to do with sex.


This mob wasn’t after sex. There were upset at being judged by this outsider. They might have tried to escape the city once the reality sunk in that their confrontation was futile. Unfortunately for the people who were gathered at Lot’s house, the angels blinded them so that they had a difficult time even finding the door to Lot’s house.


Religious leaders have portrayed Sodom as a city of brutal homosexuals who went around in mobs raping people. But if Sodom was as barbaric as it has been portrayed it wouldn’t be necessary for God to destroy the city as it would have destroyed itself. A city that lived by trade could not have survived if it had been so violent, and it is inconceivable that Lot would have stuck around if Sodom had been so brutal. The real story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a condemnation of greed and pride.

The art of whitewashing, on full display.

 

[Done222]

Lot had some visitors and all the men of Sodom showed up at his house wanting to have sex with them. Doesn’t that seem odd? Then Lot says, “you can have my daughters” to this very massive crowd. Seriously?

What about this:

The people of Sodom were warned by Lot that they were going to be destroyed. (What normally happens in the Bible)

The crowd gathers at Lot’s house when they see the unusual strangers.

The crowd asks to have to have sex with the strangers to see if they are angels.

Lot confirms they are angels by (falsely) offering to send out his daughters.

This makes more sense even if it does “defend” homosexuality.

 

[Kenny'sID]

This makes more sense even if it does “defend” homosexuality.

And it does not, the're is no defense.

Are really saying homosexuality is fine with God?

 

[Done222]

And it does not, the're is no defense.

Are really saying homosexuality is fine with God?

I don’t know the mind of God.

But it makes more sense that the men who gathered at Lot’s house weren’t looking for sex; but were angry and fearful because they were facing judgment.

Granted, the people of Sodom had engaged in a lot of sin, and that would have likely included homosexuality and heterosexuality adultery. This is why they were under judgment.

But the men of Sodom asked to have sex with Lot’s visitors to see if Lot’s visitors were angels sent to destroy them. If you look at all the details of the story that makes more sense.

 

[Philip_B]

Hospitality is a key component of what is expected of the people, and the story seems to point of something of a lack of hospitality or a failure to show hospitality. Of course there are numerous examples of a lack of hospitality in our own age, and that may well be the lesson that this passage is highlighting for us today.

 

[Kenny'sID]

don’t know the mind of God.

You have his word, close enough, but clearly have not read it.

Are you really saying you don't know if homosexuality is a sin or not?

 

[George Antonios]

I don’t know the mind of God.

But we have the mind of Christ (1Co.2:16) by reading his words (1Co.2).

 

[Done222]

You have his word, close enough, but clearly have not read it.

Are you really saying you don't know if homosexuality is a sin or not?

What is sin? It's not as simple a question as you may think.

 

[Kenny'sID]

What is sin? It's not as simple a question as you may think.

You're evading.

 

[Done222]

You're evading.

There are 2 commandments of Christ, Love God with all your heart mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Homosexuality is "sinful", but gay people can keep those commandments.

It is complicated.

What is the sin? Is it when you pull the trigger or is it when the bullet hits the victim, or is it the anger that causes you to fire the gun?

What about the Nazis in death camps who genuinely believed they were in the right?

I'll leave it to God to sort things out.

 

[Kenny'sID]

There are 2 commandments of Christ, Love God with all your heart mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Homosexuality is "sinful", but gay people can keep those commandments.

It is complicated.

What is the sin? Is it when you pull the trigger or is it when the bullet hits the victim, or is it the anger that causes you to fire the gun?

What about the Nazis in death camps who genuinely believed they were in the right?

I'll leave it to God to sort things out.

It's really not complicated at all, and those who choose to make it complicated generally have an agenda.

The following should uncomplicated it:

Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (Read More...)

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Romans 1:26-28 - For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (Read More...)

1 Timothy 1:10 - For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Mark 10:6-9 - But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. (Read More...)

Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

1 Corinthians 7:2 - Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Timothy 1:10-11 - For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; (Read More...)

Romans 1:27 - And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Romans 1:32 - Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[JacksBratt]

Lot was not afraid of the mob. Lot would never send his daughters to be raped by a mob, and if he would, why did God spare him? The mob quickly demonstrated that they were not interested in sex, they were upset about being judged. Looking fairly at the details, this interpretation makes more sense.

And yeah, there is also God speaking through the prophet Ezekiel saying that the sins of Sodom were Pride and greed.

Pretty sure that they were interested in sex..
The text is quite clear, especially when you know that in the bible to "know" someone means to have sex with them..

Here it is:

Genesis 19:3-5


King James Version


3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.


4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:


5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

 

[rockytopva]

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. - Ezekiel 16:49-50

1. Pride
2. Gluttony
3. Laziness
4. Uncharitable

And to make the long story short... They found nothing else better to do!

 

[Biltong65]

Imagine a homosexual city, like for example San Francisco.

I went to San Fransisco three times when I was at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, while in the Army.

Saw the usual tourist sites, ate great food in China Town, etc.

I can assure you, the average visitor to the city is not besought after by a mob of gay men.

 

[Mink61]

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah’s demise begins in the 18th chapter of Genesis when God told Abraham that he would destroy Sodom, but the destruction of the city takes place in the 19th chapter. Lot was the nephew of Abraham, and he lived in Sodom. Lot was a righteous man, but he remained in Sodom until the very end, and many of his actions indicate that he was trying to save Sodom from destruction. Apparently, Lot did not think that Sodom was all that bad.

Actually, the story begins in Genesis 13, when Lot and Abraham separated from each other. Lot pitched his tents near Sodom; not in it. In this chapter, we are told that inhabitants of Sodom were "wicked and great sinners against the Lord."

When God told Abraham that Sodom would be destroyed, Abraham tried to bargain with God to spare the city, which means Abraham did not want to see Sodom destroyed. God agreed not to destroy Sodom if ten righteous men were found in the city. This suggests that sometime between the warning and the destruction, Abraham and/or Lot would have searched the city for ten righteous men since that was the deal. In searching for righteous men, they would certainly try to persuade some not-so-righteous men to be more righteous.

It suggests no such thing. It was the two angels of the Lord who went to Sodom. Also, after the Lord told Abraham that He wouldn't destroy Sodom for the sake of finding 10 righteous men there, the chapter ends with, "The Lord departed as soon as he had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned home".

In conducting this search Abraham and/or Lot would have warned the people of the coming destruction since this was their best argument; but the real sins of Sodom were greed and pride; and being greedy, it would be difficult to convince these people to sacrifice some of their wealth to help the poor. Being proud, the people of Sodom would tend to reject any suggestion that their great city was displeasing to God. Abraham was an outsider, and Lot was viewed as an outsider.

But it's pretty clear that Abraham/Lot didn't do any searching; The Lord did.

When the angels came to destroy the city, Lot was expecting them. Lot even sat at the gates of the city waiting for these angels to arrive. This confirms that either Abraham or God warned Lot which would have led to the search for righteous men in the city. Lot was able to recognize that they were angels, which means that these strangers must have stood out in some way. Other people of Sodom must have also seen the angels, and the arrival of these unusual strangers would have triggered conversations across the city.

Lot was not expecting them. He wasn't waiting for them at the gates of the city. He had no idea that they were angels of the Lord until later in the chapter when they tell him that they are about the destroy the city.

As word spread, and the people of Sodom talked about the strangers, some of the people of Sodom would start to become concerned about Lot’s warning. A crowd gathered at Lot’s house to find out who these strangers were. These concerned citizens couldn’t ask the question, “Are these angels of God, sent to destroy us?” They were too proud and they were not going to give that warning any credibility, so they asked a different question. In a typical arrogant fashion, they asked the question in a very clever way.

It seems like you are trying to re-write the story.

The crowd was trying to determine if these strangers were human. They were waiting to see the reaction of Lot and the reaction of the strangers. How did Lot react?

Nothing indicates that the townsmen knew if the strangers were human or not. Why would they?

Lot was a righteous man, meaning he was a good man, and he must have loved his daughters greatly. Lot wasn’t actually going to send his daughters out to a mob. This mob was not interested in sex, and Lot knew this. Lot knew they were trying to determine if the visitors were angels. What Lot basically said was, “You can even rape and kill my own daughters, but whatever you do – WHATEVER YOU DO – DON'T MESS WITH THESE STRANGERS!”

The mob WAS interested in sex, but not with women. The men of the town wanted to have sex with the angels, thinking they were human males.

And it wasn't that Lot was offering his daughters up to be "raped and killed".

Lot was trying to get the mob to back off, but his words confirmed to the crowd that these were angels of God who were sent to destroy them, and the people of Sodom became more hostile.

At this point, neither the crowd nor Lot had no idea that the men staying with Lot were angels.

Notice that Lot went outside to speak to the mob. He even shut the door as if he was going to speak with them privately, away from the angels. Clearly, Lot wasn’t afraid of these people, in fact, he was trying to help them. Lot was trying to get his friends and neighbors to back off, and he wanted to do so without the angels hearing what he said to the crowd, and what the crowd said to him.

Lot closed the door in order to separate the townsmen from the angels. The townsmen were obviously not above breaking the door down to get to the men.

This is why Lot had waited at the gate for the angels to arrive so that he would be the one to greet them. Lot wanted to save Sodom otherwise he would have simply fled the city when God or Abraham warned him. Lot wanted to plead for the city of Sodom, but first he had to get the angels to his house, and he also had to keep them away from the people of Sodom who had rejected his warning.

Lot was not "waiting" at the gate for the angels. He was "sitting" at the gate when the angels arrived, but he had no idea that they were angels.

As for the rest of what you wrote, it's just a wrong interpretation of what's written.

Notice that when the mob threatened Lot, it had nothing to do with sex.

It has EVERYTHING to do with sex!

This mob wasn’t after sex. There were upset at being judged by this outsider. They might have tried to escape the city once the reality sunk in that their confrontation was futile. Unfortunately for the people who were gathered at Lot’s house, the angels blinded them so that they had a difficult time even finding the door to Lot’s house.

Yes, they were after sex...with men. And they didn't want Lot--who was a resident alien--to be giving them orders about their behavior.

It was after the angels pulled Lot inside and blinded the townsmen with light, that the angels told Lot that they were about to destroy Sodom. At THAT point, Lot probably got the clue who the angels were.

Religious leaders have portrayed Sodom as a city of brutal homosexuals who went around in mobs raping people. But if Sodom was as barbaric as it has been portrayed it wouldn’t be necessary for God to destroy the city as it would have destroyed itself. A city that lived by trade could not have survived if it had been so violent, and it is inconceivable that Lot would have stuck around if Sodom had been so brutal. The real story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a condemnation of greed and pride.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily true.

Let's not forget that God destroyed the earth by a flood because He saw "how great the wickedness of human beings was on earth, and how every desire that their heart conceived, was always nothing but evil". When God caused the flood, He didn't just wake up one day and say to Himself, "Gee! The earth's population is wicked!" If the number of years between Adam and Noah is accurate and true, then it took literally thousands of years for the earth to become as bad as it was.

If the story of the flood is true, and people of the earth were wiped out, except for Noah and his family, then Sodom wouldn't have existed until a short time after Noah and his sons began repopulating the earth. It was only about 400 years between Noah and Lot.

 

[Blade]

"The crowd was trying to determine if these strangers were human." Where did you get this from? If it was answered I missed it. "To know them" commonly used Hebrew euphemism (a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing)for sex.

Sodom's specific sin was sexual immorality "Ekinappropriate contenteusasai" And going after strange flesh. You go into all this ..thanks but leave out Jud 1 7?

I don't know what "allot" of people like/dislike about this but "homosexuality" is a sin so it is wrong. This is not how I feel or think. Its His word.

 

[Blade]

I went to San Fransisco three times when I was at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, while in the Army.

Saw the usual tourist sites, ate great food in China Town, etc.

I can assure you, the average visitor to the city is not besought after by a mob of gay men.

I remember this girl from Church took me to San Fransisco. This was late 80's. As we just got there and looking around she said "1st time ever seen a guy checking out another guy". Seems they kept looking at me.

No clue why you said "gay mob". I had never been there and that was what did happen to me.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think the main issue with this thread is the modern day Christian tendency to ignore the sermon on the mount and the teachings of Jesus regarding helping the poor and unfortunate.

I think making it about sex when there are more important issues according to what God has said in scripture is more important - is a reflection of where the faith is today.

In the early church, there were groups of people who made everything about sex and based their salvation on knowledge, they were called gnostics.

This is an observation, that where the faith is going for the post reformation denominations may be the same as the gnostics of old.