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Featured The real sins of Sodom were greed and pride

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Done222, Oct 14, 2020.

  1. Done222

    Done222 Newbie Supporter

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    The story of Sodom and Gomorrah’s demise begins in the 18th chapter of Genesis when God told Abraham that he would destroy Sodom, but the destruction of the city takes place in the 19th chapter. Lot was the nephew of Abraham, and he lived in Sodom. Lot was a righteous man, but he remained in Sodom until the very end, and many of his actions indicate that he was trying to save Sodom from destruction. Apparently, Lot did not think that Sodom was all that bad.

    When God told Abraham that Sodom would be destroyed, Abraham tried to bargain with God to spare the city, which means Abraham did not want to see Sodom destroyed. God agreed not to destroy Sodom if ten righteous men were found in the city. This suggests that sometime between the warning and the destruction, Abraham and/or Lot would have searched the city for ten righteous men since that was the deal. In searching for righteous men, they would certainly try to persuade some not-so-righteous men to be more righteous.

    In conducting this search Abraham and/or Lot would have warned the people of the coming destruction since this was their best argument; but the real sins of Sodom were greed and pride; and being greedy, it would be difficult to convince these people to sacrifice some of their wealth to help the poor. Being proud, the people of Sodom would tend to reject any suggestion that their great city was displeasing to God. Abraham was an outsider, and Lot was viewed as an outsider.
    When the angels came to destroy the city, Lot was expecting them. Lot even sat at the gates of the city waiting for these angels to arrive. This confirms that either Abraham or God warned Lot which would have led to the search for righteous men in the city. Lot was able to recognize that they were angels, which means that these strangers must have stood out in some way. Other people of Sodom must have also seen the angels, and the arrival of these unusual strangers would have triggered conversations across the city.

    As word spread, and the people of Sodom talked about the strangers, some of the people of Sodom would start to become concerned about Lot’s warning. A crowd gathered at Lot’s house to find out who these strangers were. These concerned citizens couldn’t ask the question, “Are these angels of God, sent to destroy us?” They were too proud and they were not going to give that warning any credibility, so they asked a different question. In a typical arrogant fashion, they asked the question in a very clever way.
    The crowd was trying to determine if these strangers were human. They were waiting to see the reaction of Lot and the reaction of the strangers. How did Lot react?
    Lot was a righteous man, meaning he was a good man, and he must have loved his daughters greatly. Lot wasn’t actually going to send his daughters out to a mob. This mob was not interested in sex, and Lot knew this. Lot knew they were trying to determine if the visitors were angels. What Lot basically said was, “You can even rape and kill my own daughters, but whatever you do – WHATEVER YOU DO – DON'T MESS WITH THESE STRANGERS!”

    Lot was trying to get the mob to back off, but his words confirmed to the crowd that these were angels of God who were sent to destroy them, and the people of Sodom became more hostile.

    Notice that Lot went outside to speak to the mob. He even shut the door as if he was going to speak with them privately, away from the angels. Clearly, Lot wasn’t afraid of these people, in fact, he was trying to help them. Lot was trying to get his friends and neighbors to back off, and he wanted to do so without the angels hearing what he said to the crowd, and what the crowd said to him.

    This is why Lot had waited at the gate for the angels to arrive so that he would be the one to greet them. Lot wanted to save Sodom otherwise he would have simply fled the city when God or Abraham warned him. Lot wanted to plead for the city of Sodom, but first he had to get the angels to his house, and he also had to keep them away from the people of Sodom who had rejected his warning.

    Notice that when the mob threatened Lot, it had nothing to do with sex.
    This mob wasn’t after sex. There were upset at being judged by this outsider. They might have tried to escape the city once the reality sunk in that their confrontation was futile. Unfortunately for the people who were gathered at Lot’s house, the angels blinded them so that they had a difficult time even finding the door to Lot’s house.
    Religious leaders have portrayed Sodom as a city of brutal homosexuals who went around in mobs raping people. But if Sodom was as barbaric as it has been portrayed it wouldn’t be necessary for God to destroy the city as it would have destroyed itself. A city that lived by trade could not have survived if it had been so violent, and it is inconceivable that Lot would have stuck around if Sodom had been so brutal. The real story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a condemnation of greed and pride.
     
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  2. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    What leads you to that conclusion?
     
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  3. Aspzan

    Aspzan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I disagree. Consider this:

    Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire
     
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  4. Done222

    Done222 Newbie Supporter

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    Lot was not afraid of the mob. Lot would never send his daughters to be raped by a mob, and if he would, why did God spare him? The mob quickly demonstrated that they were not interested in sex, they were upset about being judged. Looking fairly at the details, this interpretation makes more sense.

    And yeah, there is also God speaking through the prophet Ezekiel saying that the sins of Sodom were Pride and greed.
     
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  5. plain jayne

    plain jayne Member

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    Much confusion in this thread.

    [1] Sodom and Gomorrah [and surrounding cities] did have MANY sins. Most Christians who read their Bibles know that. Homosexuality/rape was one of them. The scripture used by the OP says that. I don't know why the OP only says pride and greed when it blatantly lists several sins.

    [2] Jude, the half-brother of Jesus, clearly says these places following "fornication and sexual perversions" and this is why they were made to be examples by undergoing eternal fire - so says Jude.

    [3] The full list of their sins:
    • "wicked, great sinners against the LORD" = Genesis 13:13
    • "After the meal, as they were preparing to retire for the night, the men of the city—yes, Sodomites, young and old from all over the city—surrounded the house and shouted to Lot, “Bring out those men to us so we can rape them.” = Genesis 19:4-5
    • They "proclaimed their sin and did not hide it" = Isaiah 3:9
    • "she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me." Ezekiel 16:49
    • "God made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
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  6. plain jayne

    plain jayne Member

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    Lot was to the breaking point over the sins of Sodom long before the angels ever got there. I think he was afraid of the mob and what they would do to the men that were by the rules of hospitality in those days - under his care.

    2 Peter 2:7-8 = "...and if he [God] rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); [This negates your opinion in your OP that "Apparently, Lot did not think that Sodom was all that bad."]


    Lot would DEFINITELY have sent his daughters to be gang-raped by those men. That's what life was like for women in those days. Just like the Levite's concubine in Judges that he sent out to be sexually abused to spare his own life and it killed her. God approved of NONE of this. The Bible is full of evil things that mankind did that is not ordained by God. I don't like it at all - but that's how it was.
     
  7. Done222

    Done222 Newbie Supporter

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    The words “wicked” and “sinner” are generic and don’t indicate a particular sin.

    Likewise, “did an abomination before me” is not specific.

    Also, “proclaiming their sin” does not tell you what their sin is.

    “pride, did not aid the poor and needy, haughty”, this is all about pride and greed.

    Jude does mention fornication and “strange flesh”, and maybe there was fornication and “strange flesh” in Sodom. Maybe there was a lot of sin of many kinds in Sodom, but that’s not why Sodom was destroyed. God said Sodom was destroyed for pride and greed.
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is that basically a general defense for homosexuality?
     
  9. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agree.

    It's the master thereof at work.
     
  10. Done222

    Done222 Newbie Supporter

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    You quote Peter’s view of what Lot experienced, instead of looking at the words and actions of Lot. I’m not saying that Peter is wrong, there was certainly some wickedness in Sodom and Lot may have been distressed by it at times. But Lot could have simply left. Lot remained in Sodom. He went to meet the angels and took them to his house. He knew they were coming. He knew judgment was coming. But he stayed in Sodom.

    I realize it has been pretty much universally accepted that Sodom was a place of violent homosexuals, and maybe it was. Maybe there was fornication and “strange flesh”, but that’s not why Sodom was destroyed. God said Sodom was destroyed for pride and greed. Those were the only specific sins that God mentioned when He clearly stated why He destroyed Sodom.

    Think about how this story is viewed. Imagine a homosexual city, like for example San Francisco. Imagine staying in San Francisco and having a crowd of gay men surrounding your house demanding to have sex with your male guests. You suggest they have sex with some young girls, and they become enraged. They express anger that you are somehow judging them. They violently attack you. That doesn't make much sense, unless some kind of demonic spirit was influencing these people, but if Sodom was so horrible the question remains, "why did Lot stick around?"

    Also,

    A parent’s love for their child has not changed. Lot loved his daughter.
     
  11. plain jayne

    plain jayne Member

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    You keep saying that, but the scripture you cited does not say that.

    Ezekiel 16:49-50 = "‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. "

    God listed six sins there. And then he said therefore he did away with them.

    And I did not quote Peter's "view" or "opinion". How would Peter know the feelings of a man living hundreds and hundreds of years before him. Peter, like all other Bible authors, was lead by the Holy Spirit to write what he wrote.

    I cited God's actual words via Peter.
     
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  12. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I expect the sodomy was also an issue but he's the main ones are pride and greed.

    Funny how we zero in on sexual sin isn't it? As though other sins aren't as bad
     
  13. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    I don't defend homosexuality because of other verses though am willing to keep an open mind on it as there is some debate amongst Christians in the context of those verses too


    But does the Bible specifically mention homosexuality as the main reason?
     
  14. HatedByAll

    HatedByAll Changed by the Grace of God

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    The key to understanding God's rath against any society is that rath is carried out after generations of a society being evil. When God sent the flood it was after centuries of evil. When His people were judged it was after generations of the kings (etc) did what was evil in the sight of the Lord.

    Homosexuality follows a certain pattern in most cases. It involves a lack of a close connection between a boy and his father or another significant male. Not always but at least nine times out of ten. If you ask most any man who grew up with homosexual tendencies, we will tell you in our boyhoods our fathers were never close to us when we most needed them most. So homosexuality was not only one of the sins causing the downfall of Sodom but it is also a predictor of the Spiritual health of the society at large. Particularly in regards to the health of the father son relationships of society as a whole.

    Just saying the homosexuality of Sodom was not only a sin each homosexual of Sodom was guilty of but it also showed the breakdown of their society that had been occurring for generations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
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  15. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    I also have noticed that some of the loudest churches railing against homosexuality or even trans ( which no idea if a sin or not) are often the ones where the leaders have many titles, apostle this, prophet that, and many say if you don't tithe you are sinning...(which isn't what Paul's letters say and those are the ones which tell us how church should be) . They rarely preach against the sins of pride and self sufficiency
     
  16. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    ..or greed...
     
  17. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    I mean, I sort of think trans is a sin because of cross dressing being forbidden and also it seems against the natural gender orders God created but I also a! Unclear as to whether it is wilful sin or a disorder of the mind like alcoholism
     
  18. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    Lot loved his daugter...not sure about that...living parents do not expose their children to abuse
     
  19. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    Real love is putting someone s needs before your own if need be
     
  20. Done222

    Done222 Newbie Supporter

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    At first glance, the story of Sodom seems to be a condemnation of homosexuality, and since a lot of people don’t like homosexuality, they don’t look any deeper.

    This is not about defending or condemning homosexuality. It is simply looking at the clues to determined what actually happened in the story of Sodom.

    Since Abraham and Lot both knew what was coming, it seems very reasonable to believe that the people of Sodom were warned. Lot stuck around suggesting that he got along with at least some people in Sodom, and he would have warned them. Abraham tried to bargain with God suggesting that maybe he might warn some people in Sodom.

    In either case, if the people of Sodom had been warned, that explains why they would gather at Lot’s house when these strangers arrived.

    I find it easier to believe that the crowd was simply trying to determine if these were angels than to believe Lot was going to give his daughters to a violent mob.
     
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