The REAL shame of creationism: its fradulent spokemen

thaumaturgy

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My, my --- and I thought your little sabbatical was so you could mellow out.

No amount of sabbatical will ever mellow me out on genocide.

I know it's hard to understand because you are a True Christian, but senseless slaughter usually gets an atheists' knickers in a twist. It's part of our standard of evil.
 
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AV1611VET

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Well, I'll admit, you got me there.

So the Jews were super strategists blessed by God except when they weren't blessed by God. Stands to reason.

Of course the same thing could be said about just about any other group of humans who claimed that when things went well they were blessed by their god and when things went bad they were being punished by their god.

Of course that is precisely the standard "Why do bad things happen to good people" answer.

It is the most handy way of dealing with the famous "Problem of Evil". It's workable. But kind of makes you wonder how you can tell THIS group of blessed people who are currently being PUNISHED apart from the opposing group of "bad" people who are now mysteriously BLESSED such that they can defeat the people punished by their god.

This is why it is helpful to look at ALL the pieces on the game board, and not just your own.

This was precisely Habakkuk's dilemma. Here's how the Rainbow Study Bible puts it:
  • Habakkuk, witnessing Judah's apostasy, bribery and oppression, enters into a dialogue with God. He wants to know why God is allowing these people to prosper and escape judgment. God's reply is that He is sending the Babylonians as His chastening rod upon the nation of Judah. But this bothers Habakkuk even more: why would a just god bring judgment upon a wicked Judah with an even more wicked Babylon? God then gives Habakkuk a new understanding and insight into the very nature of God. God is good, fair and wise, and man's responsibility is to confidently place faith in him. God lets Habakkuk know that future judgment of Babylon will bring sure and thorough destruction. Habakkuk has learned his lesson: to trust God and praise Him always.
 
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AV1611VET

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No amount of sabbatical will ever mellow me out on genocide.

I know it's hard to understand because you are a True Christian, but senseless slaughter usually gets an atheists' knickers in a twist. It's part of our standard of evil.

Well, I'da thought that a good book on Plutonium would have tamed even the most aggressive of atheists! ;)
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Well, I'll admit, you got me there.

So the Jews were super strategists blessed by God except when they weren't blessed by God. Stands to reason.

Or when their opponents had chariots of iron. Then they lost though God was with them.
 
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AV1611VET

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Or when their opponents had chariots of iron. Then they lost though God was with them.

It had nothing to do with iron.

[bible]Deuteronomy 11:22-32[/bible]

[bible]Joshua 17:18[/bible]
 
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thaumaturgy

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Well, I'da thought that a good book on Plutonium would have tamed even the most aggressive of atheists! ;)

Good point! In point of fact I think the science behind plutonium is quite fascinating. (I like to hope that if I were involved in Manhattan Project I would have been like so many of the other scientists who pleaded with the administration and military to NOT drop it on a city in Japan but to "demo" the unit on an uninhabitted island. Of course that might have affected "future me" in that my dad had been transferred to the Philipines in 1945, and while en route was informed the war was over because of the Bomb...otherwise I'm willing to bet he'd be one of the canon fodder in an invasion of the homelands.)

But nonetheless the chemistry of plutonium is fascinating and the science of what it does and how it does it is even more fascinating.

This is what it means to be a scientist. You sometimes stumble onto things that, taken to their extremes, can result in massive pain. But the facts are non-moral. They just are what they are. It is what WE do with them that makes all the difference.

If people want to do evil they will most assuredly do it, and all the quicker if they can feel that the Creator of the Universe WANTS them to do massive evil.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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It had nothing to do with iron.

[bible]Deuteronomy 11:22-32[/bible]

[bible]Joshua 17:18[/bible]
Oh Really?

Judges 1:19

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
 
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AV1611VET

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Oh Really?

Judges 1:19

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Are you saying that God couldn't drive out the inhabitants of the valley, despite His desire to do so? Read the rest of this chapter.

[bible]Judges 1:27[/bible]
[bible]Judges 1:29[/bible]
[bible]Judges 1:30[/bible]
[bible]Judges 1:31[/bible]
[bible]Judges 1:33[/bible]

I have a feeling the problem didn't lie with God.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Are you saying that God couldn't drive out the inhabitants of the valley, despite His desire to do so?
I am not saying it that is what the verse says. Judah and God together couldn't get it done.
Read the rest of this chapter.

[bible]Judges 1:27[/bible]
[bible]Judges 1:29[/bible]
[bible]Judges 1:30[/bible]
[bible]Judges 1:31[/bible]
[bible]Judges 1:33[/bible]

I have a feeling the problem didn't lie with God.
As a typical Biblical literalist you pick and chose which verses are to be taken literally and which you must intepret to avoid problems. The verse from the King James Version which you consider 100% accurate says the God was with Judah but he couldn't drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had chariots of iron. So you twist and turn in the usual literalist way talking about your feelings and the rest of the chapter.
 
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Skaloop

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I am not saying it that is what the verse says. Judah and God together couldn't get it done.
As a typical Biblical literalist you pick and chose which verses are to be taken literally and which you must intepret to avoid problems. The verse from the King James Version which you consider 100% accurate says the God was with Judah but he couldn't drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had chariots of iron. So you twist and turn in the usual literalist way talking about your feelings and the rest of the chapter.

It appears as though we hold the Bible up to a higher standard than AV does...
 
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ReverendDG

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It appears as though we hold the Bible up to a higher standard than AV does...
what standard does AV have? his bar is set so low as it is. we can pretty much just take the bible at face value and it works better than the convoluted nonsense AV and other creationists spout.

his stuff only works because he ignores context of the writers and what they believed and imposes his own beliefs on them
 
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TheOutsider

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his stuff only works because he ignores context of the writers and what they believed and imposes his own beliefs on them
Hence why I feel that Biblical Literalism (and Creationism, by extension) is very lazy theology. There is almost no thought involved at all. No regard for things like historical context and shades of meaning.
 
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Hence why I feel that Biblical Literalism (and Creationism, by extension) is very lazy theology. There is almost no thought involved at all. No regard for things like historical context and shades of meaning.

Are you saying creationism was built on top of a rubbish tip? it's foundations are sunk into garbage?
does this mean??? yes I'm afraid it does, it stinks.
 
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Washington

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Hence why I feel that Biblical Literalism (and Creationism, by extension) is very lazy theology. There is almost no thought involved at all. No regard for things like historical context and shades of meaning.
Which is its great appeal. The Bible: no thinking required.
 
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TheOutsider

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Actually many people find that the Bible does require considerable thought. Just not a lot of King-James-Onlyists in that number is all.
Agreed. That's why I specified Literalists in my previous post. They seem to care more about the letter of the law than the spirit of the law. Hmm.. now where have I heard that before. :scratch:
 
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Washington

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Agreed. That's why I specified Literalists in my previous post. They seem to care more about the letter of the law than the spirit of the law. Hmm.. now where have I heard that before. :scratch:
And I agree. While some have made a study of the Bible a life long endeavor, others are free to never give it a second thought, taking everything in it as literal truth, and being quite content with their "No thinking required" approach. I had an aunt like that. She could quote Bible verses all day long, but when confronted with any kind of theological issue her eyes would glaze over. But she was happy in her simple, unquestioning, and uncritical literal belief.
 
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