• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.
  7. There has been an addition to the announcement regarding unacceptable nick names. The phrase "Let's go Brandon" actually stands for a profanity and will be seen as a violation of the profanity rule in the future.

THE READINESS RAPTURE: It's not just another rapture theory

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rollinTHUNDER, Mar 8, 2018.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,886
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So Christ was responding to His disciples' questions of what would be the sign of His coming, and the end of the age...

    ...But His answers had nothing to do with the sign of His coming, or the end of the age?

    What did His answers have to do with?

    Undoubtedly His disciples were very satisfied with no answers to their questions.
     
  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +9
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    What? He answered their question about the sign of His coming and the end of the age (Matt.24:3). That's what this thread is about, not the destruction of the temple, which is a dead subject here. If you all want to discuss it go ahead, but I'm not wasting my time.
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +7,158
    Christian
    Married
    Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
    Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
    Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
    Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


    Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
    Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
    Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
    Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountai6ns, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
    Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?



    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (See Luke

    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: (This occurred during 70 AD.)

    and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    (Christ's future Second Coming occurs when the times of the Gentiles ends, and is found below.)


    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (See Revelation 6.)
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    .
     
  4. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +9
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    :yawn: :sleep:
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,886
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Right. So post #117 is scriptural and historical corroboration of Christ's answers to His disciples' question of what would be the signs of the end of the age.
     
  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +9
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Nice try.
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,886
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Thanks; success requires it.
     
  8. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +9
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    bump
     
  9. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

    +142
    Christian
    Married
    This is a key problem with the notion of the 'whisked away' rapture. People are going to say that Matt 24:31 is the 2nd coming... which confuses the entire issue. I think you have the right general idea, but this whisked away notion corrupts everything.

    I think it would be more helpful to post all the parables of the kingdom of heaven & look at Revelation through this lens. Matthew 25:31 is an ongoing process that starts at the beginning of the great tribulation.

    when we look at Matthew 25:1-7
    “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.​

    this 'kingdom of heaven' is not in 'heaven', a spiritual heaven, correct? It is on earth. When Satan is kicked out of 'heaven' in Revelation 12:7-9, it is not talking about literal 'heaven', right? Satan doesn't live in heaven, right? Satan is kicked out of the kingdom of heaven (on earth).

    so why do people insist that they will be 'whisked away' to 'heaven', when 'heaven' clearly means 'spiritual heaven' (for the dead) & the kingdom of heaven (on earth)?
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +9
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Whisked away rapture? It appears you have trouble with the very idea of what is known today as the rapture. Many argue that the word is not even in the Bible, which is true, but still, this does not nullify this future meeting in the clouds/air. See Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. So even though some don't like the term "rapture" the concept is biblical and it will remain whether we like it or not.

    For the Jews, it will be a sign, as all the tribes of the earth (including scattered Israel) will finally mourn for the one they have pierced. Then they will look up and know that their redemption draws near. Meanwhile, the wedding supper will take place for those who are ready (Luke 12:35-48, Matthew 8:11-12). Scripture does not say how long they will be in heaven, but it will only be a short time because they will be returning shortly afterwards when the Lord returns for the second coming, when He will reign on the earth in the millennial kingdom.


    Cheers
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +7,158
    Christian
    Married
    You can see below that the NKJV prints the text from the Old Testament in Uppercase.
    We see that they looked on Him whom they pierced at Calvary, and a few weeks later on the Day of Pentecost the Spirit was poured out and about 3,000 of "all the house of Israel" mourned, by being "cut to the heart", and were redeemed by accepting Christ.



    Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
    Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
    Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
    Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
    Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


    Act 2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
    Act 2:17 'AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, SAYS GOD, THAT I WILL POUR OUT OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH; YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS.

    Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
    Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
    Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
    Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
    Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

    Based on the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25, and the fact that He returns in "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, nobody will be saved on the day of His Second Coming.

    Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled during the first century, based on what is written in the text above.


    .
     
  12. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,933
    Christian
    Single

    I commend you for the start you have made in the study of eschatology and the rapture of the Church. However, there are things you are not seeing in the proper prospective intended by the Scriptures. Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as documented in the following, you might be interested in reviewing:

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

    Mt.24:31:
    And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

    Lk.21:36:
    "Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

    Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
    "In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

    "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

    The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
    "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

    1 Thes.4:13-18:
    The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

    "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

    "According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

    Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

    "For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

    "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

    "Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

    2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
    "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

    The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

    In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

    Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
    The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

    Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

    "He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

    The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
    In verse 7:
    "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

    The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

    In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

    The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

    From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


    Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


    The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

    http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


    Quasar92
     
  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,933
    Christian
    Single

    Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

    The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

    The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

    1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

    2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

    3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

    4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


    Quasar92
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +7,158
    Christian
    Married
    Dr. Sam Storms, who is a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, describes the modern Pretrib, Dispensational doctrine of Bible interpretation, first brought to America by John Nelson Darby about the time of the Civil War.

    Doctor Storms rejected the doctrine before graduating from the seminary, because he could not get it to agree with what was written in his Bible.




    .
     
  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,933
    Christian
    Single

    Scriptural proof for the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, are posted in #132 and #133. Let me see you prove any part of it to be false, or your views are, together with those of Sam Storm!

    John Nelson Darby DID NOT invent the pre-trib rapture theology at all. But rather, Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul did, as recorded in post #132, you continue to deny.


    Quasar92
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +7,158
    Christian
    Married
    I will be glad to do that...



    .
     
  17. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,933
    Christian
    Single

    Your above post with a video of somone's opinions, DOES NOT respond to the challenge I gave you in my post #135. Either you prove any part of my posts #132 and #133 to be false, or your views are.

    Someone elses opinions DO NOT address the Scriptural proofs for the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, except to propagate false interpretations of eschatology. As such, your views are clearly shown to be a failure.


    Quasar02
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +7,158
    Christian
    Married
    The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.
    There were no chapters or verses in the letter, when Paul wrote it.

    Paul describes the event at the end of chapter 4 and gives the timing of the event at the beginning of chapter 5 on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
    The word "But" at the beginning of chapter 5 connects the two chapters.
    The same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15-16, which are clearly Second Coming passages.

    Christ "descends" from heaven in chapter 4.
    Get out a dictionary and look up the word "descend".

    For most almost 1800 years of Church history it was understood that the event at the end of chapter 4 would occur at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.
    Thousands of pages of commentary and sermons written by American preachers at the time of the Revolutionary War prove this fact.


    In the link below you can see how author Grant Jeffrey cut and pasted the writings of the Early Church Fathers in an attempt to change their Post-trib viewpoint into his Pre-trib viewpoint.

    Pretribulationist Revisionism
    (Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

    Jeffrey's dishonesty shows what some people are willing to do in an attempt to promote their system of Bible interpretation.

    On page 197 of the 1998 edition of his book "Rapture Under Attack", pretrib author Tim LaHaye admits that the Posttrib viewpoint is the oldest.

    The following is a direct quote from LaHaye's book.

    "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position(in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

    I will go with what was taught by the Apostles of Christ during the first century.


    .
     
  19. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,933
    Christian
    Single

    Show me in what way you think the above views you posted above refute the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul.

    Jesus return for everyone who belong to Him, to take them to heaven with Him:

    1 Thess.4:13 "Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."

    The Day of the Lord that will take place immediately following the above event:

    1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

    4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

    Mt.24:31:

    And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and t

    hey will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

    Lk.21:36:
    "Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

    Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
    "In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

    "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

    The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
    "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

    1 Thes.4:13-18:
    The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

    "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

    "According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

    Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

    "For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

    "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

    "Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

    2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
    "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

    The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

    In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

    Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
    The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Cloverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, also meaning ' departure or "to depart".' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

    Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

    "He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

    The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
    In verse 7:

    "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

    The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

    In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

    The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

    From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


    Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


    The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

    http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


    Quasar92


     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +7,158
    Christian
    Married
    The only place the word "heaven" is used in the passage above is where it says Christ is coming from heaven.

    Nowhere does it say Christ takes us back to heaven.

    You are adding that to the passage.

    If you think Christ "comes as a thief" on the "day of the Lord", right after the event at the end of chapter 4, you have just destroyed the pretrib doctrine.
    The same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15-16, which are clearly Second Coming passages.

    .
     
Loading...