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The Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Jephunneh, Jan 7, 2003.

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  1. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member


    The premellenialism of Darby is naive but at worst innocuous. Believe what you want. On this point, you at least are doing no harm to Christianity.
  2. Jephunneh

    Jephunneh Active Member

    The Rapture.......continued

    The Lord tells man ahead of time what He is giong to do, and even gives advanced warning as to when He will do it:

    Isaiah 48
    3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

    5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee:

    6....I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

    One way God has given us of measuring time allows us to make a very close guess about when the Rapture will take place. True, it will still be only a "guess," but it will be very close. This is a Biblical systen in which the Holy Spirit Himself established His own rules for interpretation. This system is called "The Thousand Year-Day system" and it is given in 2 Peter 3:8.

    2 Peter 3
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    This Biblical passage is the key that interprets Leviticus 23.

    Leviticus 23
    3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

    If you follow the pattern given here and apply the Thousand Year-Day System, you see that man has to be here 6000 years, and then the last period of 1000 years has to be a "sabbath" of rest (see Genesis 2:1-3). This sabbath of rest, lasting a thousand years (Latin:"Millennium"), is mentioned SIX times in one chapter (Revelation 20:1-8). The "whole earth is at REST" in Isaiah 14:7 after Satan is put down.

    to be continued....
  3. stumpsitting101

    stumpsitting101 Senior Member

    "The Lord tells man ahead of time what He is giong to do, and even gives advanced warning as to when He will do it:"

    This statement was made, plus many scriptures were given to prove the validity of the statement. I just question how one can claim this, then support this claim by scriptures, and then still hold onto the "Secret Rapture; "At any Moment Rapture", seems once the Lord annoumces ahead of time, no matter how prior to the event, the event is no longer "Secert" Or "At Any Moment". Imminency would not exist.
    One of my favorite scriptures along this line is:
    Amos 3: 7---"Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
    Another is:
    Isaiah 42: 9---"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them."

    Jesus' statement concerning,  not knowing the day nor hour, did it mean this time would never be reveal at some time in the future or this particular time has not yet been revealed up to the making of this statement?


  4. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    these are some awesome writings of what is to come; and I asked my pastor about the rapture, because he said all of us would miss the tribulation, because it happens in Revelation 4. I said, (and I ask everyone here) if all of the christians are raptured, who is here to warn the others? He told me it would be the 144,000: I said, well what if one of us are those saints (he turned pale), but it is a questioned that should be asked. I said, is it better not to get raptured, and remain on earth to help bring others to Christ (he said no), but I said, what about the dragon that persecuted those who keep the testimony of Christ (satan being cast down to earth) sorry if I am off the subject, this just came out of me.
  5. Gideon4God

    Gideon4God Regular Member

    Other Religion
    Darbism can cause harm to Christian doctrine by allowing some to believe they won't suffer at all before the return of our Lord Christ.
  6. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn’t at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.

    Note that it doesn't show the 144,000 as evangelists, or show anyone repenting during the tribulation, but says that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be dam*ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). So it's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation are us, saved before the tribulation began. Jesus doesn't promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

    I believe giving unbelievers the idea of a 2nd chance is dangerous. After hearing the ideas of a pre-trib rapture and a 2nd chance, unbelievers could get complacent and say "Oh, when I see a pre-trib rapture happen then I'll repent and believe; I've got a 2nd chance, right?"

    I think instead we should warn them: "The Bible doesn't promise that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. And in the great tribulation God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."
  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    Note that no verse says that the rapture will take anyone any higher than the clouds.

    Note that the only thing the Bible says happens "in the twinkling of an eye" is the changing of the bodies of the living Christians into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Jesus' coming at the rapture includes much more than that. It includes first the descent of Jesus from heaven with the saints who died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), then the sounding of the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the resurrection of these saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the changing of living believers into immortal bodies, and finally the gathering together of all the resurrected saints, and all those changed in the twinkling of an eye, into the clouds where Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    Note that the Bible doesn't show the judging or rewarding of any part of the church before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

    Note that the time to reward the saints doesn't come until after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15, 18); we will be judged and rewarded at the 2nd coming: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come" (1 Corinthians 4:5); "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:1); "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).

    After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged before Armageddon: "Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:26-27); "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me" (Psalm 50:4-5); "The LORD will judge his people" (Psalm 135:14); "The Lord shall judge his people" (Hebrews 10:30).

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). This means that God did not give us the gift of faith based upon our prior works, for "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). But once we have received the gift of faith it must be accompanied by works, for "By grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8), but "faith, if it hath not works, is dead" (James 2:17); "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).
  8. Faithful1

    Faithful1 Member


    HaHa Ha; lol.:D Very good Stumpsitting; Using their logic, the 'rapture' people would have us believe Christ had four Resurrections!! I'll have to remember that.:D

    I really have to laugh at the "rules" these guys are trying to enforce on us in order to force us to see it "their" way.:(
    What's that passage about those who "wrestle" the scriptures "to their own destruction.."?;)

  9. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

    My spirit gets all excited reading your posts Jespunneh!

  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    United States

    I don't know what Darbism is, but I see a different problem.  I see people putting faith in only what their human minds can understand.  And you know what that means?  It really shows that they are not really exercising any faith at all.  I see a whole lot of doubting Thomas's in this world. 
  11. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

    People who follow John Darby's teaching. Darby taught, that, the Church will not go through tribulation to be suffering. Many Churches adopted Darby's teaching in the 19th Century. That's how pretribulation doctrine appeared during 19th Century.

    John 16:33; Acts 14:22; 1 Thess 3:3-4; and 2 Thess 1:4-7 telling us, that we have go through tribulation to be suffer for Christ first.

    I do not follow John Darby's teaching of pretribulationism. I rather follow Bible than men's teaching of philosophy - Colossians 2:8.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
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