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The Rapture before the Tribulation -Enoch's Pre-Trib Eschatology Revelation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by yeshuasavedme, Apr 26, 2010.

  1. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    [Chapter 50]
    A The rapture/translation to glory bodies, of the living saints:
    1 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
    And the light of days shall abide upon them,
    And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,

    B Then the tribulation/day of wrath upon all the inhabitants of the world:
    2 On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.

    C The safety of those translated to glory, pre-trib, is seen and known by those remaining:
    And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:

    D Those who see and repent are saved in the name of the Son of Man, but they do not get translated to glory,and endure to the end:
    And He will cause the others to witness (this)
    That they may repent
    And forgo the works of their hands.

    3 They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
    Yet through His name shall they be saved,
    And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
    For His compassion is great. 4 And He is righteous also in His judgement,

    E The end, when the LORD comes to judge and to cleanse the earth of all the wicked, in what Enoch calls the second consummation of sin on earth:
    And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
    At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
    5 And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.

    Enoch opens his book with the revelation of the tribulation of the end times, and says he writes it for those who will be living at that time:
    Chapter 1]
    1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:
    he Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,
    4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,
    [And appear from His camp]
    And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.

    5 And all shall be smitten with fear
    And the Watchers shall quake,
    And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.
    6 And the high mountains shall be shaken,
    And the high hills shall be made low,
    And shall melt like wax before the flame
    7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,
    And all that is upon the earth shall perish,
    And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).
    8 But with the righteous He will make peace.
    And will protect the elect,
    And mercy shall be upon them.
    And they shall all belong to God,
    And they shall be prospered,
    And they shall all be blessed.
    And He will help them all,
    And light shall appear unto them,
    And He will make peace with them'.
    9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
    To execute judgement upon all,
    And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
    Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
    And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

    And in chapter 50 of
    Enoch's parables, he reveals the rapture/translation to glory, of the righteous before the tribulation, and then, those remaining who see and repent, are the "elect" who understand by what has happened and by Enoch's book which is for them in that time, as Enoch said, and they repent, but get no glory as those they saw raptured do, who are translated and removed, for that time of the tribulation which is to come as the second consummation of sin on earth, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed.

    Those remaining after that removal do not get the bodies translated to glory, though they are saved in the name of the Son of Man who was to come and is come, and we see by the writings of Enoch and of the OT and NT, that they enter into the millennial kingdom as the blessed of YHWH, who populate the earth and live for a thousand years, never dying for there is no more death anymore [except for the unrepentant sinners who die at age 100, as Isaiah writes], before they who are the "Blessed of YHWH" are translated to their immortal, made for glory,bodies, at the last ingathering of earth's last and final harvest of the sons of God, adopted out of Adam and into the New Man name.
  2. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Economist

    I'm not sure what bearing a non-canonical book has on doctrine.
  3. Big Mouth Nana

    Big Mouth Nana Post Tribulationist

    ^_^ Just wait. She will tell you why she believes that it applies. Been there already lol.
  4. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    Are you Roman Catholic, then? Enoch was already called inspired Scripture before Rome decided that they would exclude Enoch from their list[canon means list] of books [Bible means collection of writings], but not all Christians ever followed Rome, and Enoch remained in the Bibles [collection of writings called sacred] of many early Christians and of the Ethiopian NT Church, where it remains in their Bible today.

    Enoch is inspired Scripture. The early Church believed Enoch was inspired and many of them wrote that fact. The Jews who received Jesus believed Enoch was inspired. Jesus called it Scripture and quoted from its doctrines in His teachings.
  5. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    Enoch has all bearing on all Christian doctrines to do with these subjects:
    1 The Son of Man in heaven who was hidden/kept secret until His revealing, who was with God in secret, and who was God, and who was to come, and in whose name the redeemed would be saved.

    2 The Lake of Fire made for the devil and his angels; who goes there and when and why

    3 Sheol below earth -everything about it, who goes there, how long they remain, why they go there, and how the four hollows [Sheol means "hollow] are separated, with one for the redeemed souls to wait in comfort for the day of their release from that death of separation, when the Son of Man would rise from the dead and raise them from there.

    4 the origin of demons and their judgment and why they roam earth and torment, afflict, seduce and deceive the sons of Adam

    5 the calendar God established for all creation

    6 the great tribulation as the second consummation of sin on earth, and the descriptions of that time to come

    7 the reign of peace, the end of the curse for the earth, and the regeneration of the heavens and the earth

    8 the angels in heaven do not marry nor take in marraige

    the resurrected and translated saints will be equal with/companions of/like the angels in heaven

    9 the rapture of the righteous before the tribulation

    10 Why Azazel is given all sin, who Azazel is, and how that relates to the Atonement of Christ for our sins.

    Azazel is wrongly translated "scapegoat" in the English translations, but the Hebrew word is Azazel, and the goat elected by lot on the day of Atonement "to Azazel", upon whom all the sins and iniquities of the people of God are transferred on the Day of Atonement, which goat is then sent away, "to Azazel in the wilderness", to bear those sins and iniquities away, can only be understood by reading it in Enoch.
  6. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Economist

    What does being Roman Catholic have to do with anything? Is your question supposed to be like a boogey-man and scare me off?

    And your source for this statement is what?

    I'm aware of the Ethiopian Canon. Are you saying you accept all the Ethiopic canon which includes Jubilees, Ethiopic-Maccabees, Josippon, the Epistle of Clement, the Deutero-Canonical books, two Books of the Covenant, four Books of Sinodos, and Didascalia? Or are you just picking and choosing your Ethiopian favorites?

    There isn't much evidence that all Christians accepted it as inspired. Some did, no doubt.

    Be careful quoting from the Book of Parables; that part isn't original to Enoch. And I see little bearing in the book on Christian doctrine. In fact, I think some of it is harmful to the Christian cause. Enoch is a book written by a Jewish sect of the 2nd Temple period who really have little to do with Christianity other than shedding some light on historical background.

    Yes, the angels in Enoch are literally the stars in the sky, many of which rebelled against God and are/are going to be punished for it. But you probably don't accept that part.

    Their calendar is quite a fictional creation as well as their explanation as to why their calendar was off.
  7. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    No, it is an honest question to see why Rome is your authority on Enoch, as Rome alone is responsible for its ban in the western world and that was not done until almost four hundred years after the Church was founded. That is like saying the USA, which is only a bit over two hundred years old, has not had a constitution for the states ratified yet and will not have for another near two centuries, in comparison.
    The Holy Spirit did not make a list so late in the age of the Church for all men to adhere to, and they certainly did not adhere to it, and so why should I or you? The early Church included Enoch, and the Jews of the Qumran community who were the royal priesthood heirs [sons of Zadok] had Enoch in their Bible [collection of books], as the Dead Sea Scrolls collection proves -just as those who became converts to the Gospel of Christ in Ethiopia did, and who never banned it and kept it in their collection.
    If Rome is your authority and Pope on Enoch, then are you faithful to include in your Bible the books called the Apocrypha by the west?
    If not why not, because the first English Protestant Bible and many others of them did include those books [as I do], and the archbishop of Canterbury of the 1611 King James Bible time cursed any who did not include those books in their Church readings. Over two hundred years after that first King James Bible's inclusion of those books in its printing; and because of politics alone, the archbishop of Canterbury of 1865 [I think the year was, you can find that on an apologetics site for Roman Catholicism] cursed anyone who did include those books in their Church readings. The point is that "canon" is politics of men, plain and simple, who hold power as popes over those who subject themselves to them; but still, there is not and never has been consensus, worldwide, for a "canon" in the Church which Jesus Christ alone is the head of, and which has many adherents on earth who do not have one earthly leader they bow to, because they believe that the one Head of the Church is Christ, and He is not in Rome, but in heaven. http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

    Even Martyn Luther did not concede a canon list as valid which Rome made, and the early Church men, whose writings we have, did not agree with the exclusion of Enoch from the list -like Tertullien and Origin- so there was no consensus even then, but only politics.
    Did you know that Enoch has always been a part of the "canon/list" of books in the collections [Bible means a collection of writings/books] of other Christian Churches down through the centuries?

    Enoch was the first book of eschatology, written pre-flood, and Enoch laid out the doctrines of God, by revelation, which were never re-laid in the OT or NT, but were treated as totally valid truth by those who came after him, and by Jesus Christ and His disciples and apostles.
  8. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    Church history, by the writings they all left. Are you unaware of that?
    Barnabas, Tertullien, Origin, and many more called Enoch Scripture.

    As to the Ethiopian Church canon, they have much that I do believe is as valid for doctrine and instruction as any included by Rome but which Rome in their list. I don;t ban any of their books, but that does not mean that I consider all books in the list as "thus saith YHWH", inspired by His breath, because not even the ancient Jews believed all in the books they collected were "thus saith YHWH", for there is included in the list of the ancients, besides the prophets who spoke by the inspiration of YHWH, histories, prose, and wisdom which none of is "thus saith YHWH". Ask a believing practicing Jew and they will tell you the same.
  9. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran


    Be careful quoting from the Book of Parables; that part isn't original to Enoch. And I see little bearing in the book on Christian doctrine. In fact, I think some of it is harmful to the Christian cause. Enoch is a book written by a Jewish sect of the 2nd Temple period who really have little to do with Christianity other than shedding some light on historical background.[/quote]

    Yes, the parables are original to Enoch, as Jesus quotes from them specifically, many times, but I will not do your own study for you on that, nor post all of them, which you can go learn for yourself; and anyone, using Enoch's book, can prove the parables are part of the collection of Enoch's writings by just reading the rest of the book, for it correlates totally to what is in the "parables".
    Is is totally a fabrication to make a claim that Enoch was written by a Jew, as it is not a Jewish book, but pre-Jewish and is about Jesus as the Christ who was the Son of Man in heaven seen in secret there, by Enoch alone. That fact is why the Christ rejecting Jews of the first century made a "canon list" only after Christ rose from the dead, and banned Enoch, -That is also history which you can go learn for yourself.
    And we do not know that the parables are not found in the Dead Sea Scrolls because not all of them were allowed to be known; and in more recent times it has come out that they did believe the passages about the Son of Man in heaven being the Messiah, because some formerly hidden manuscripts were leaked out, and are now published that relate that very fact. Its all politics and power over the minds of men who subject themselves to men as their spiritual guides, even there, as those who reject Christ will reject everything that is written about His being the Messiah, who was to come and is come.
  10. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    the stars are called angels in the OT and NT, too, but in Enoch, there are more stars which are parables of -

    The calendar Enoch was shown is God's calendar. From its creation to forever, it is the same. Men have made a mess of discovering and using it, but God has not changed it, and it is still the same, in His heavens. I used to think it was not possible to calculate the years because of the mess men have made, but using Enoch, one actually can calculate the years from one year to another, because they are the same as they have always been, being measured exactly as Enoch was shown by the angel.
    Here is instruction for you from a Jew who wrote on that subject, and why the calendar must be restored for Israel to have its temple and be correct in fulfilling God's feast days as He gave them to them to rehearse for perpetuity, until all is fulfilled.
    -This man writes it, about the Jubilee Calendar, which is Enoch's calendar.

    THE JUBILEE CALENDAR by Mikhael Bauer[wash my mouth
  11. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Economist

    The ban? By Rome? I don't see any actual historical evidence for this.

    You keep repeating that as if it's fact when you don't provide any evidence.

    Jews at Qumran were an extremely small fraction of 2nd Temple Judaism. I see no particular need to do what they did; or believe how they believed. In fact, to a very large degree, you don't do what they did or believe how they believed.

    Actually, the ESV I use has the deutero-canonical books in it. And I guess you don't bother to include all of the books of the Ethopic Canon in your bible, as I listed in my previous post?

    moot point.

    Did not include Enoch in his canonical list.

    I require more than conjecture.

    Hardly written pre-flood. It reflects a sect of 2nd Temple Judaism.
  12. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    Tertullien lived ca. 160 – ca. 220 A.D
    Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV : On the Apparel of Women. Book I
    Christ rejecting Jews excluded Enoch in 90 AD, after Jesus rose from the dead, because Enoch is about Christ and the last things as concerning Him and His work, and was written long before Christ.

    Barnabas, disciple of Christ and companion apostle to the Gentiles with Paul, wrote of Enoch as Scripture, making mention four times of Enoch's writing as prophecy.
    The Epistle of Barnabas (translation J.B. Lightfoot)
    Did you know that Abraham was a contempory of Noah and Shem, and got from them the writings of Enoch, and even lived with them for 39 years, from age 10, while hiding from Nimrod, who wished to destroy him [Jasher 11:13 http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/11.htm], which he read to the men of Pharoah when they returned Sarah to him, who asked him to teach them wisdom, values, and virtue, so Abram read to them from the book of Enoch, as is found in the Genesis Apocryphon manuscript of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    Translation of 1Q Genesis Apocryphon (1QapGen)
    Abraham is writing, in this passage:
    To answer you, I have more "writings in my collection" [Bible means collection of writings] than the Ethiopian Church does, for I include the book of Jasher as true history, and that which corroborates with the OT law and the prophets
    Book of Jasher 1
  13. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Economist

    Not really. Enoch pretains more to the Essene sect than anyone else. It reflects 2nd Temple Judaism, not the world of the ante-diluvian people. I can't help it if Tertullian and the Epistle of Baranabas got it wrong. And even Tertullian realizes that most don't accept Enoch. It's also funny that you appeal to Tertullian after complaining about Rome (Tertullian was a Latinized Roman).

    That's great.

    I don't take the ages in Genesis to be literal figures. So, no, Abraham wasn't a contemporary of Noah. If you take them literally then yes you are forced to some ridiculous conclusions.

    The book of Jasher, as well as the book of Enoch, are Pseudopigriphal books. They aren't written by Jasher and Enoch. I think Jasher is in fact an 18th century work.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  14. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Economist

    Commenting on the Barnabas quote:

    Barnabas 16:5 quotes from 1 Enoch 89. Unfortunately, Barnabas does not apply the language as Enoch did. 1 Enoch 89:51-67 is Enoch's "Animal Apocalypse". In this portion, that is quoted by Barnabas, Enoch is so clearly refering back to the destruction of the FIRST temple in Jerusalem. Barnabas takes this and applies it to the destruction of the 2nd Temple and the rebuilding of a Temple in Christ. But that is not what Enoch 89 was refering to. Barnabas has taken a portion of 1 Enoch and applied it to his own situation and understanding, but that does not change the fact of what 1 Enoch 89 is talking about.

    Barnabas 16:6 looks more like an allusion to Daniel.

    Commenting on Tertullian:

    Tertullian appears to have missed what the author of Enoch thinks fallen angels are and why they are in trouble with God. For Enoch, fallen angels are literal stars in the sky (cf: Jubilees). Their rebellion against God is evident in the fact that they don't show up in the sky at their appointed times. The author says they will be punished for not showing up at their appointed times. This is because the book of Enoch (and the calendar in Jubilees) potray an idealized 364 day solar calendar. The accomplishement of the construction of this calendar is significant because if you project this calendar back onto the old testament, nothing that can be considered "work" is ever done on a sabbath in the old testament. Further, sabbaths and feast days occur at the same time every year, as their is perfect symetry the calendar (ie. exactly 52 weeks of 7 days for 364 days total). Of course, 364 days is 1.25 days short of an actual solar year, so Enoch's calendar is a little off. The seasons would have come later and later each year and the stars wouldn't be where they were supposed to be on Enoch's calendar. Enoch's solution was that this was because the stars rebelled against God by not showing up at their appointed times. Those people who didn't use Enoch's calendar were "sinners" who followed the rebellious stars/angels. This would of course have been the Pharisees and Sadducees who used a lunar calendar based on observation of the moon rather than mathematical calculation. Enoch's calendar also has the downside of having to start each New Year on the 4th day of the week rather than the first day of the week as the Pharisees and Sadducees calendar's would.

    Enoch is a second Temple Jewish sectarian work. Other than reusing some common threads alive and circulating in 2nd Temple Judaism (ie. salvation of the righteous, judgment of the wicked, God's plan being worked in history, etc..) it has little bearing on Christianity. The Essene sect responsible for 1 Enoch would have disagreed with Christians over key elements like the identities of the righteous, wicked, the elect, and the messiah(s). But, the fact that common threads of 2nd Temple Judaism show up in 1 Enoch confused some Christians into thinking that Enoch is talking about all the same things that Christians talk about. Well, he's not. He's just reusing commong language, themes, and concepts (a common worldview) to suit the purposes of his sect, not the Christian-Jewish-sect. Enoch is a good peek into the world of 2nd Temple Judaism, but it has little by way of authoritative value for christians.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  15. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    Barnabas was a disciple of Christ and if he was no more than 30 years old when Jesus rose from the dead, then he was quite old when the second temple was destroyed, and you assume that Barnabas is writing from after the second temple, but Barnabas is speaking of what Enoch said about the first temple, and Enoch in the same dream vision speaks about the second temple and its pollution, so you are without reason or foundation to suppose Barnabas is confused about what he is writing about or the time frame of it.

    Barnabas 16:5
    Again, it was revealed how the city and the temple and the people of Israel should be betrayed. For the scripture saith; And it shall be
    in the last days, that the Lord shall deliver up the sheep of the
    pasture and the fold and the tower thereof to destruction.
    And it
    came to pass as the Lord spake.

    Barnabas 16:6
    But let us enquire whether there be any temple of God. There is; in
    the place where he himself undertakes to make and finish it. For it
    is written And it shall come to pass, when the week is being
    accomplished, the temple of God shall be built gloriously in the
    name of the Lord.

    Enoch chapters 85 -91 relate Enoch's dream vision of the history of the world, from Adam to the thousand year reign of peace. It was given to Enoch in totemic imagery, with the nations represented as beasts and fowls, just like they are also in the OT and NT.

    Barnabas also used Enoch in commenting on the destruction of the first temple, which Enoch saw in that vision, and Barnabas read the rest of the dream vision and knew that the second temple was also built, in Enoch's dream vision, which was never filled with the glory of the first temple, because all that was offered in it was polluted; which was the reason the sons of Zadok separated themselves from the Pharisees after the second temple was built; because as Enoch said, that temple was polluted and the sacrifices were polluted which were offered there and were not received by the LORD of Glory .

    Because Enoch goes on to tell of the great temple which will be built in the same dream vision which Barnabas is speaking from, so Barnabas also speaks of the true temple of Man, built from those born again into Christ, the true temple built without hands.
    To claim that Barnabas confused Enoch's dream vision reports and spoke of the temple in Christ's day and in the first century, while Barnabas lived, as if it was the one Enoch meant or that Barnabas referred to, is pure ignorance of what Barnabas read and was writing about, and when one is writing from ignorance and suppositions and their own opinions, with no foundation for them, then there can be no dialogue.
    After this, You may take your arguments based on nothing but your opinion, alone, somewhere else, as you do not read history on this, nor do you research historical records, and so you have no clue to the book of Enoch's history, down through time; and as you said that you do not believe the Bible records anyway, then why should you come here to argue that you also do not believe Enoch's records?

    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  16. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    There is no man named Jasher.
    It is, in Hebrew, called the "record of the upright/upright record", and it is written by Moses [I believe internal evidence shows that it is], as a redacted record of the patriarchs' own records of their lives, and of his own life, and of the histories of the nations concerning the Patriarchs in those times, which records he redacted even more for the Genesis and Exodus accounts, and Joshua completed it, just as he completed the ending of Deuteronomy, upon Moses' death.
    And as you have not read it, you cannot answer it.
  17. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

    Enoch is in our canon of Scripture. It is quoted, word for word, in Jude.

    Jude, the brother of Jesus, knew it, believed it, and understood it and based on his quoting Enoch, was under the impression that those whom he was writing to, knew it, believed it, and understood it.

    Open your minds, folks.

    Yeshuasavedme, I believe that the error in your interpretation is the idea that the great tribulation is the 3 1/2 - 7 year wrath of God. It is not, Scripturally. The change and removal of the church is definitely post-tribulation/pre-wrath, Scripturally, because the great tribulation has been going on since Jesus ascended, took the scroll, and opened those first four seals, sending out those four seal riders which have been continually riding to this day.

    Jesus said the tribulation followed the desolation of Israel. Israel was desolated when they killed their king, among many other abominations described in Scripture.

    The church is not appointed to suffer the wrath of God, which is the 7th seal, full of trumpets, beasts, and bowls. We are given our garments of glory, our robes of righteousness, our imperishable clothes, our white robes, in the 5th seal after having endured the "great tribulation" (seals 1-4) for the past nearly 2000 years. Rev 7 says that those who are standing before the throne of God, having endured the great tribulation, have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. That is the church.

    The timing is unmistakable.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  18. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Economist


    I don't think you should consider something canonical just because it is quoted or made in passing reference. After all, Paul quotes several pagan Greek poetes (Aratus and Epimenides in Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12 respectively), but we don't rush out to canonize those works. By the same token, we shouldn't run out and canonize Enoch just because Jude makes reference to it.

    I don't want to have to "open my mind" and then find myself with the unfortunate consequence of canonizing the 'Hymn to Zeus' and 'Cretica'. How about instead of the slogan "open your mind" we switch to "use your mind"?
  19. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Economist

    I don't believe that is stated anywhere so clearly. He was a diciple in the sense of an early christian, but nowhere is it clearly stated that he was a disciple during Jesus' earthly career.

    I'm not really interested in such speculation. Your theory is seriously lacking if you have to build it on pure speculation.

    I think it's a pretty clear cut reference to the sacking of the second temple in Barnabas especially when (1) the temple Barnabas consideres the "actual" temple is one which is made without human hands (16:7-10), (2) the whole work is about Jesus' activity, not a recounting of Israelite history. It doesn't really matter if you think he's writing this before or after the 2nd Temple destruction; that's what the reference is to either way. I think Jesus spoke about the second Temple destruction, so it wouldn't suprise me or bother me if Barnabas was writing pre-destruction.

    Highlighting it in red isn't going to make it any more correct, it isn't going to make my comments go away either.

    No, Barnabas is referencing the second temple destruction and Jesus' messiahship. His work is not recounting Jewish history like the Animal Apocalypse of Enoch does; Barnabas is talking about the Messsiah. It's a clear cut reference to the second temple destruction. Barnabas has taken a reference to the first temple destruction in Enoch and applied it to the second temple destruction. This wasn't an uncommon method of interpretation of the day.

    Again, Barnabas takes a clear reference to the destruction of the first Temple in 1 Enoch 89:51-67 and applies it to the destruction of the second Temple. Barnabas obviously does this because of his post-resurrection, and probably post-temple destruction, perspective. What happens after 1 Enoch 89:51-67 is the recounting of the building of the second temple (89:72-77), recounting Alexander the Great to the Selucid domination of Palestine to the Maccabean revolt (89:1-18). It's right after the Maccabean revolt recounting that the author of Enoch's Animal Apocalypse is placed. It's in this time period where he expects judgment on the wicked and vindication of the righteous. This should make it so clear that the author of the Animal Apocalypse of Enoch is writing about 164 BC, right around the time of the Maccabees. The reason that the author of this section probably considers the temple to be more glorious in the future is because the Selucid's had desecrated it with idols and unclean animals (cf: 1 Maccabees and Josephus). For the author here though, the coming Temple was a physical temple that would restore the uncleanliness of the Selucids. It was NOT the same temple Barnabas (and early Christians along with Jesus) had in mind (ie, a Temple not made of human hands; aka: within followers of Jesus). It may be possible to even pin the author of the Animal Apocalypse of Enoch to just prior or right after the Maccabean cleansing of the Temple. Needless to say, the author's expectations were just wrong. The Maccabean revolt didn't usher in the bliss of the age to come that he expected. Barnabas take the part of Enoch that he needs and reapplies it (he updates it) to fit his new situation.

    I cannot help it if you don't like the historical context of passage. It has nothing to do with Christianity other than some recurring themes that show up in several places in 2nd Temple Judaism. The work itself is a sectarian work, which I think was written by a group of the sect of the Essenes.

    Your rhetoric is boring.

    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  20. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    Now on that, we agree.

    First, they must open their Bibles and open Enoch, to see what Enoch says that is built upon in the OT and NT, and never relaid as foundational doctrines, because Enoch already laid them out by revelation, for any to read and correlate with the OT and NT.
    Canon means "list", and any born again in Christ believer can have a list of books in their collection of sacred writings

    Charles translation
    Enoch chapter 1
    9And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
    To execute judgement upon all,
    And to destroy all the ungodly:
    And to convict all flesh
    Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
    And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

    Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him

    Enoch said this New Testament doctrine first, for the last things:
    Jesus agrees with Enoch and says the same about the judgment commited to Himself by the Father and the throne of Glory from which He judges all nations
    Enoch 61
    6And all who dwell above in the heaven received a command and power and one voice and one light like unto fire. 7And that One with their first words they blessed,
    And extolled and lauded with wisdom,
    And they were wise in utterance and in the spirit of life.
    8And the Lord of Spirits placed the Elect One on the throne of glory.
    And he shall judge all the works of the holy above in the heaven,
    And in the balance shall their deeds be weighed.

    9And when he shall lift up his countenance
    To judge their secret ways according to the word of the name of the Lord of Spirits,
    And their path according to the way of the righteous judgement of the Lord of Spirits,
    Then shall they all with one voice speak and bless,
    And glorify and extol and sanctify the name of the Lord of Spirits.