• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

The Radical All

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Feb 8, 2020.

  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +5,239
    Non-Denom
    All = pa’ß =

    Radically means “all.”

    Used without the article it means “every,” every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Eph. 2:21, “every building,” and the text in Eph. 3:15, “every family,” and the RV marg. of Acts 2:36, “every house;”

    or, it may signify “the highest degree,” the maximum of what is referred to, as, “with all boldness” Acts 4:29.

    Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like “Israel,” it signifies either “all” or “the whole,” e.g., Matt. 2:3; Acts 2:36.

    Used with the article, it means the whole of one object.

    In the plural it signifies “the totality of the persons or things referred to.”
    Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning “everyone” or “anyone.”

    In the plural with a noun it means “all.”

    One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies “wholly, together, in all ways, in all things,” Acts 20:35; 1 Cor. 9:25.

    The neuter plural without the article signifies “all things severally,” e.g., John 1:3; 1 Cor. 2:10; preceded by the article it denotes “all things,” as constituting a whole, e.g., Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 3:9.
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +5,239
    Non-Denom
    Dr. Robert Young Analytical Concordance

    pa’ß =

    All points, all men, all things. All, whole, completely. (1075 verses)

    All = lk=

    All, the whole, any, each, every, everything, totality. (24 passages)

    All =lylk=

    Entire, all. Complete, wholly. (15 verses)

    All = br =

    Multitudes/ abundance (149 verses)

    All= o&loß =

    All. Whole. Completely. (99 verses)

    This is your mission for today, should you be willing to accept it… List the “many” Koine Greek scholars who maintain all does not mean all.

    Koine Greek Scholars: All does not mean all =

    1 _____________________________________________.

    2.______________________________________________

    3.______________________________________________

    4.______________________________________________

    Why not start with the Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament by William F. Arndt & Wilbur Gingrich

    PAS, pa’sa, pa’n gen. pantov", pavsh", pantov" (dat. pl. pa’si and pa’sin vary considerably in the mss.; s. W-S. §5, 28; cf. Rob. 219-21) (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, En., Ep. Arist., Philo, Joseph., Test. 12 Patr.).
     
  3. Curtis.Hilliker

    Curtis.Hilliker Now what.......

    566
    +648
    United States
    Charismatic
    Engaged
    US-Others
    Forgive my ignorance, what exactly are you getting at here?
     
  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +5,239
    Non-Denom
    Dear Curtis: There appears to be individuals on our Christian thread at C.F. that question the scope of pas. Furthermore, they not only question the scope, they believe far too much emphasis is placed on that one wee word. Stay tuned.
     
  5. Curtis.Hilliker

    Curtis.Hilliker Now what.......

    566
    +648
    United States
    Charismatic
    Engaged
    US-Others
    Forgive me again, but “pas” ?
     
  6. Of the Kingdom

    Of the Kingdom Well-Known Member

    568
    +427
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    According to your notes, could be either "every" or "every kind". Are you saying that scholars who believe "every kind" is a possible translation do not believe "all means all"?

    I assume this is related to the question of whether "all people" or "all kinds of people" will be saved.
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +5,239
    Non-Denom
    Dear Of: If you have a scholar that believes pas is not radical in scope please bring him to us on this link.

    Perhaps the radical all of pas should be tis (some) in scope in tis occasions. Let's try that in the following passages of the Word. > > >


    1 Cor. 15:22

    “For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power.”

    Rev. 5:13

    “And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power forever.”

    Col. 1:18-20

    “He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme. For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated…”

    Acts 3:20,21

    “And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)”

    1 Cor. 15:28

    “And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some.”

    1 Cor. 15:25,27

    “For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet…For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him.”

    Romans 11:32

    “For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some.”

    Eph. 4:10

    “Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence.”

    John 5:28

    “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

    1 Timothy 2:4

    “For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.”

    1 Timothy 2:6

    “For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time.”

    Cor. 5:15

    “For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life.”

    Col. 1:16

    "For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)…some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

    John 3:35

    “The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God’s displeasure hangs over him continually.”

    Gal. 3:20

    “But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him.”

    Heb. 1:2

    “God…hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)”

    2 Cor. 5:14

    “For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for some of us and has risen again.”

    Heb.8:11

    “And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness…”

    Acts 10:36

    "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

    Rom. 11:36

    “For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end.” (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

    Eph. 4:6

    “One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some.”

    Heb. 12:23

    “To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect.”

    James 2:10

    “For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some.”

    Romans 3:22,23

    “…the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. …For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour.”

    John 17:2

    “As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him.”

    Romans 9:5

    “The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages.”

    2 Peter 3:9

    “The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people’s conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance.”

    Phil. 2:10,11

    In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

    Please remember

    All/pas does not radically mean all.

    Whole is not whole.

    All = Some/ tis.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    +5,766
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own "free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "You will not come to Me, that you might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead.

    Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.

    Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
    Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  9. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +3,506
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Here is the radical "pas" from the 2000 edition of Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon.
    πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν gen. παντός, πάσης, παντός (dat. pl. πᾶσι and πᾶσιν vary considerably in the mss.; s. W-S. §5, 28; cp. Rob. 219–21; on the use of the art. s. B-D-F §275) (Hom. +).[1]
    ...
    everything belonging, in kind, to the class designated by the noun, every kind of, all sorts of, adj. for the words παντοδαπός and παντοῖος, which are lacking in our lit.: πᾶσα νόσος καὶ πᾶσα μαλακία Mt 4:23. γέμουσιν πάσης ἀκαθαρσίας they are full of all kinds of uncleanness 23:27 (Ar. 15, 6). πᾶσα ἐξουσία 28:18. ἀπὸ παντὸς ἔθνους from every kind of nation Ac 2:5. Cp. 7:22; 13:10ab; Ro 1:18, 29. πᾶσα ἐπιθυμία (evil) desire of every kind 7:8. ἐν παντὶ λόγῳ καὶ πάσῃ γνώσει 1 Cor 1:5b. πᾶν ἁμάρτημα every kind of sin 6:18. Cp. 2 Cor 7:1; 9:8bc; 10:5ab; Eph 1:3, 8, 21a; 4:19; 5:3; Phil 1:9; 2 Th 2:17. πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθόν Tit 1:16; 3:1. Cp. 2:14; Hb 13:21. πᾶσα δόσις, πᾶν δώρημα Js 1:17 (W-S. §20, 11b). Cp. vs. 21; 1 Pt 2:1ab; Rv 8:7 al.—B. 919. Schmidt, Syn. IV, 540–54, s. ἕκαστος and ὅλος. DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.[2]
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 782). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
    The 1957 edition of BDAG can be reviewed online at this link. The quoted BDAG text above is listed under 1B in the 1957 edition.
    http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  10. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

    +932
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Its not individuals who disagree its Scripture that exposes your erroneous conclusions regarding " pas " and how its used in scripture. Below we see it CANNOT mean what you claim otherwise EVERY single person in ALL Judea and ALL Jerusalem (including EVERY Pharisee, Saducee, Samaritan, Gentile and Romans citizen) was baptized by John and confessed their sins to him which we know for a FACT is not true.

    Mark 1:4-5
    And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

    hope this helps !!!
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +5,239
    Non-Denom

    You poor dear lad: Do you read anything on this link or post post post with no help?

    Look up two small posts above, on this link, and behold what is not a synecdoche or a metonomy. From there you should begin to grasp your verse is one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    +5,766
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    You can't discount EVERY use of the word "all" in the Bible based on this one scripture that is making an exaggeration for effect. All = ALL
     
  13. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +3,506
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Why not? UR-ites do that all, the time with "aionios." They point out 1-2 verses where it cannot mean "eternal" and try to dismiss the other 68 times it occurs in the NT.
    Αιωνιος/aionios occurs 69 times in the NT.
    “eternal life” 30 times
    “everlasting life” 15 times.
    Aionios world 2 times. 2 Tim 1:9, Titus 1:2
    Here are 23 verses where "all men" does not mean all people in the world.
    (1) Matthew 26:33
    33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
    (2)Matthew 27:25
    25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
    (3)Mark 1:37
    37 And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.
    (4)Mark 7:14
    14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
    (5)Mark 9:15
    15 And straightway all the people, when they beheld him, were greatly amazed, and running to him saluted him.
    (6)Mark 14:23
    23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
    (7)Luke 2:1
    1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
    (8)Luke 3:15
    15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
    (9)Luke 24:19
    19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
    (10)Acts 4:21
    21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.
    (11)Acts 7:22
    22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
    (12)Acts 18:17
    17 Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.
    (13)Acts 21:27
    27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
    (14)Acts 21:28
    28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
    (15)Acts 26:4
    4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
    (16)Romans 1:5
    5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
    (17)Romans 10:13
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    Romans 16:19
    (18)19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
    (19)1 Corinthians 4:17
    17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
    (20)1 Corinthians 9:19
    19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
    (21)1 Corinthians 10:33
    33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
    (22)2 Timothy 4:16
    16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
    (23)Hebrews 9:19
    19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,



     
  14. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

    +2,688
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Thank you der uber Alte, you've just shown how Matt 25:46 may well be another example of the hyperbolic, chiastic, idiomatic Hebrew poetry or rhetoric found throughout scripture. (Phew, that was an effort!)

    Jesus hints that the punishment in actuality can't be eternal, because it's corrective (kolasin) rather than retributive (timoreisis). I understand him to be warning about, translated to today's idiom, 'a world of hurt'.

    The point he's emphasising is the importance of practising the virtues as described in the preceding verses, just as he does when he enjoins us to violently remove an eye or hand if it causes us to sin.

    Back to the O.P., the 'pas' may be used in various ways, but like you say, usually it's plain meaning is inescapable.

    When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)
    Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +3,506
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    And here we have another example of the UR practice. Ignore, ignore, ignore repeat UR arguments. I certainly appreciate you unsupported opinions.
    Matthew 25:46 is neither chiastic, idiomatic, Hebrew poetry nor rhetoric. I am quite sure you have seen my quote from the EOB NT on Matt 25:46. Your assumptions/presuppositions do not trump the EOB version by native Greek speaking scholars which I quoted.
    Jesus hints nothing. See e.g. 1 Jn 4:18.

    1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[κολασις/kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
    The Greek word "kolasis" occurs twice in the NT, Matt 25:46 and 1 Jn 4:18. In 1 Jn 4:18 the person who has "kolasis" is NOT corrected is not made perfect. Ergo "kolasis" does NOT mean "correction."
    Strong's has been shown to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. Strong's is a concordance NOT a lexicon. The definitions in Strong's only show how the words are translated in the KJV.
    If one wants accurate definitions they should consult a lexicon. Here is a link to the 1957 Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker lexicon online. Bon chance.
    A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker
     
  16. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

    +2,688
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Kolasin is from pruning. Aionion kolasin is like trying to persuade an infernalist that God's plan is good news for all. It's a seemingly interminable exercise and forlorn hope.

    So that's what Jesus is saying, if a person is so set in their sinful ways it'll take a miracle to turn them around. Stiffnecked, hardhearted, self-righteous etc. These are the 'tough' sins that plague the pharisees, for which Jesus reserves his most pungent criticism. Sometimes you need to rattle their cages in an effort to make the dry bones walk.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  17. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +3,506
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Just for fun here is my post on the Eastern/Greek Orthodox version of the NT. Quoting from other sources such as Thayer, Young, Strong's does not conclusively show that the EOB is incorrect.
    …..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?
    EOB, footnote pg. 180

    “Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”
    = = = = = = = = = =
    The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96

    Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
    = = = = = = = = = =
    KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    Paul, the same writer, in the same writing the book of Romans, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below. This shows conclusively that “aionios” means “eternal/everlsasting.” Scholars unanimously agree that “aidios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
    Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
    = = = = = = = =
    https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
    The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the link above. Whoever has doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
     
  18. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +3,506
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Once again your unsupported opinion. Your "kolasis" argument is a logical fallacy as I have shown from 1 Jn 4:18. "Fear" has nothing to do with "pruning."
    The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. ... An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology.
    I do not need to have the words of Jesus explained to me, in Matt 25:46 or any other verse. See EOB above.
    I started learning to speak Greek supervising Greek refugees in Germany the year of Sputnik1 and studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level two decades after that. I also have Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon and BDAG Greek lexicon both print and digital in my library.
     
  19. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

    +2,688
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Didn't you just quote some scholar with approval in another thread who says kolasin comes from pruning? Like to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds, do we?

    What's EOB?

    Sputnik is fake news.
     
  20. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +3,506
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    It would be most helpful if you would quote my posts then respond to them. I quoted A.T. Robertson's commentary on Matthew 25:46 in response to FL who quoted Robertson out-of-context trying to make Robertson appear to support UR.
    A.T. Robertson Matthew 25:46
    Eternal punishment (kolasin aiōnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazō, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mōria (vengeance) and kolasis. But the same adjective aiōnios is used with kolasin and zōēn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zōēn. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one’s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiōnios (from aiōn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” (aiōnes tōn aiōnōn).
    I have quoted the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT [EOT] several times. See this post above.



    Sputnik is not fake news but whether it was factual or fake is irrelevant, it marks a point in time. It is sort of like the death of JFK. Most people can tell you when it was and what they were doing. I sometimes say the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany but people younger than 60 can't relate to that.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
Loading...