The quiet despair of Protestants

W2L

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Albion, remember that there are various different studies showing ~30,000 Protestant denominations. You are the one who selectively picked one and claimed a contradiction, not me.

My argument is about differing levels of unity between traditional Churches and Protestant churches. If, by your own standards, you accept a 300 vs. 30,000 statistic, then my conclusion holds. "Catholics are not perfectly united" is not a valid counterargument. This has been pointed out too many times now.
Its not 300 verses 30,000. Its 300 verses 1.

You cant lump all non Catholics together and say they are one church. They are not one church. You must pick one non catholic church and compare it to the catholic church. This means that Catholics are actually more divided. What other church has 300 divisions?
 
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zippy2006

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Its not 300 verses 30,000. Its 300 verses 1.

You cant lump all non Catholics together and say they are one church. They are not one church. You must pick one non catholic church and compare it to the catholic church. This means that Catholics are actually more divided. What other church has 300 divisions?

If you read my argument more carefully you will see that it is based on traditional Churches and Protestant churches. The argument holds for Orthodoxy in much the same way it holds for Catholicism. (This of course means, W2L, that what is at stake is Protestantism, not non-Catholicism, which was very clear from the start)

No, I am lumping Protestants together based on their aversion to tradition, their Sola Scriptura, and their overwhelming divisions. There are lots of non-Catholics who are not Protestants. Please read more carefully.

I never said all non-Catholics belong to the same church; that is a silly red herring. Given your apparent inability to comprehend simple arguments this may well be my last post to you.
 
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Albion

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Albion, remember that there are various different studies showing ~30,000 Protestant denominations. You are the one who selectively picked one and claimed a contradiction, not me.
Show us a few of those. Most studies list nowhere near this kind of a total, so I know which one you are using (and every Catholic debater uses). But it really does not matter much, because the fact is that there are a number of competing Catholic church bodies, so the idea of those Catholics being united is incorrect on its face).

And various studies show quite a significant percentage of Roman Catholics holding beliefs that are at odds with other Catholics and with offficial Church doctrine. At the same time, there are a number of Protestant churches in which the agreement level is very high.

It is 100% in the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church, for example, and over 80% in the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod. While there are Protestant churches in which agreement is lower than in the Roman Catholic Church, the RCC is only somewhere in the middle of Christian church bodies.
 
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zippy2006

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Show us a few of those. Most studies list nowhere near this kind of a total, so I know which one you are using (and every Catholic debater uses).

See link here.


But it really does not matter much, because the fact is that there are a number of competing Catholic church bodies, so the idea of those Catholics being united is incorrect on its face).

"Catholics are not perfectly united" is not a valid counterargument. This has been pointed out too many times now.
 
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zippy2006

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I suppose i should not comment further.

There are, by the way, all sorts of Protestant denominations that are not split into 300 different varieties.

It really is just a question of whether Protestantism exists, or whether it is proper to compare it to Catholicism. I will say a few words about this but I'm not in a rabbit-hole mood today.

To fruitfully compare two things they must belong to the same genus. If I want to compare apples I can compare red apples and green apples, but not red apples and oranges. In order to compare apples and oranges I must compare them qua fruit (or some other common genus).

There are various criteria that prohibit comparison between Catholicism and Protestantism, and other criteria that enable comparison. Ironically, the counterargument being made in this thread is that you can't compare Catholicism to Protestantism because Protestants lack even the very basic kind of unity required to place Protestant denominations into a common class. Yet common sense tells us that we use the word "Protestant" profitably to refer to a number of different entities, so there must be some common ground. I gave some of those commonalities here.

TL;DR: If you think Protestantism doesn't exist because the entities traditionally labeled "Protestant" are too diverse for a common genus, then my argument fails. Again, your reasoning is more or less direct admittance of a reductio ad absurdum, but my argument "fails." ;)
 
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Albion

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It really is just a question of whether Protestantism exists,...
No, it really is just a question of comparing church oranges with church apples.

You are obviously creating a false comparison by comparing a single denomination (RCC) against thousands of other denominations at once, arguing that the latter amount to a single denomination.

And that would remain true if the comparison instead had been, for example, between the Assemblies of God and all the liturgical churches (RC, EO, OO, etc.). The Assemblies would win, of course. Or between the Southern Baptist Conference and all the Lutheran church or Methodist bodies.
 
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zippy2006

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No, it really is just a question of comparing church oranges with church apples.

You are obviously creating a false comparison by comparing a single denomination (RCC) against thousands of other denominations at once, arguing that the latter amount to a single denomination. And that would remain true if the comparison instead had been, for example, between the Assemblies of God and all the liturgical churches (RC, EO, OO, etc.). The Assemblies would win, of course.

This response tells me that you simply haven't comprehended post #289 at all. That's okay, but it signals the end of our road. Presumably there are other readers who can and do comprehend it, so I do not count it a waste.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I don't feel that I am in silent despair (as the title says) or in any kind of despair, as I know the essential (i.e. the first order) doctrines necessary for my salvation.

I agree. One might just as easily start a thread entitled "The Seething Envy of Catholics".
 
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marineimaging

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[I know this is somewhat of a long post, so I have a request to make for those of you who will skim it: If you only read 1 paragraph, read the one I've bolded. Thank you, and may God's blessings be ever in your soul!:amen:]

Since coming to college, I've gotten very involved in the Christian Campus House (CCH). Due to the demographic of the area, most of the people I know are Protestant. I've been involved in small groups with CCH for 2 years now, talked a lot with a lot of my Protestant friends, and occasionally they say something that should be deeply worrying to all Christians: They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth. We often discuss many theological issues, like the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both. In my small group now, we're reading through Romans, and various verses point in either direction.

But it's very unsettling to hear how so many decently devout Christians so readily accept the idea that we just don't know how to settle issues like faith-alone or faith-and-works. We all believe the Bible has the truth; Catholics, non-denominationals, Orthodox, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, even the Christians often thought to be unbiblical are fierce in reverence to Holy Scripture holding the truth. But interpretations within Scripture vary wildly, and far too many Christians say that we'll never know how to settle theological issues, because everyone's interpretation of the Bible is different.

In some ways, this is correct. Sermons have applied Scripture to various parts of life for 2,000 years now, and applying a given verse or idea to various circumstances can yield different results. This is the flexibility of Scripture.

But to say there is no theological truth seems like a contradiction to the nature of God!

Jesus is the truth; no one here will deny that. But does the truth say that we are saved by faith alone (believe in me and be saved), or by faith and works (all will be judged according to their works)?

God knows the Bible was written by many different authors to different audiences from different time periods. He knows that the Bible can be hard to interpret. He also sent us the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us out. And as long as He's forming a Church, it's only logical that He would grant His Church guidance by the Holy Spirit to lead people to the truth.

And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.

The infallibility of the Papacy is vital to preserving the truth, and the framework for it is laid out in the Bible. Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

While we all have the Holy Spirit guiding us, we're imperfect in accepting it. Much of these forums would not exist if we all accepted the Spirit enough to be led to the truth, because these arguments wouldn't exist. Throughout the Old Testament, it can be said that the Prophets have infallibility. The Bible itself is believed to be true because of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. So it would logically follow that God would grant the modern Church infallibility on theological & moral issues!

And I'll state it again: Everything the Catholic church teaches is thoroughly Biblical. Getting into the apologetics for this would be far too long, but Dave Armstrong has a number of writings on the topic, after he converted from Evangelical Protestantism after doing an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.

Please remember the Spirit of Gentleness & self-control as you write your responses, and thank you for taking the time to read & think about this critical issue in the Church! May God bless us all, and remind us of our complete & total dependence on Him!:priest:
When faced with something similar to what you are referring I ask this question. If the deeds we need do are so absolute then how many ignorant, uneducated people would you have enroute to hell because you made yourself judge, jury, and executioner. Do you not realize you are claiming to forbid them access to heaven because they can't read nor decipher the bible in all of its complexity? The Bible needs to be a complete enough story from beginning to end for our understanding but it doesn't mean we must dissect every word into a thousand possibilities times two thousand years. The Old and New Testaments point to Jesus, period.

Or, maybe our Word of God is not that complicated. Maybe our Bible is so simple than an ignorant sheep herder can understand what needs to be understood for his or her salvation. Our salvation is secured by our belief in Jesus Christ and acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior. With His acceptance of our repentance and admission should become a change of heart or one can question if the change was real. But, I am not your judge. He is.

In my book there are no set numbers of things you must do in order to receive salvation. If so, then pray-tell, show me the list. Show me the list of things I must accomplish before my death so that I may taste eternal bliss with my Lord. But wait, wasn't there once a list of "to do's" for our salvation? Something called "The Laws"? Wasn't that the list of things to do in order to be saved? A list of laws and orders?

I agree, there must be works from then on, but this can also mean living in line with God's teaching. God did not renew the Jewish laws but rather, provided Jesus to become the sacrifice that replaced them?

In my book, Jesus replaced the Laws and with my change of heart comes the desire to do righteous things according to the time of day and the specific event that needs my understanding and the human person who needs my help. My help in the name of Jesus, the one and only son of the living God.
 
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Major1

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When faced with something similar to what you are referring to I ask this question. If the deeds needed are so absolute then how many ignorant, uneducated people would you have enroute to hell because you made yourself judge, jury, and executioner. Do you not realize you are claiming to forbid them access to heaven because they can't read nor decipher the bible in all of its complexity? Or, maybe our Word of God is not that complicated. Maybe our Bible is so simple than an ignorant sheep herder can understand what needs to be understood for his or her salvation. Our salvation is secured by our belief in Jesus Christ and acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior. With His acceptance of our repentance and admission better become a change of heart, or it was not real. But, I am not your judge. He is.

In my book there is no set number of things you must do in order to receive salvation. If so, show me the list. But wait, wasn't there once a list of "to do's" for our salvation called "The Laws"? Isn't that what a list of thing to do in order to be saved is? A list of laws and orders? Yes, the works you do from then on must be in line with God's teaching but did God renew the Jewish orders, or did Jesus become the sacrifice that replaced them? In my book, Jesus replaced the Laws and with my change of heart comes the desire to do righteous things according to the time of day and the specific event that needs my understanding and the human person who needs my help. My help in the name of Jesus, the one and only son of the living God.

I agree!

There is one and only one thing...……."Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved".
 
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Major1

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I don't feel that I am in silent despair (as the title says) or in any kind of despair, as I know the essential (i.e. the first order) doctrines necessary for my salvation.

There is only ONE doctrine for salvation and that is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2:8-9...……..
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9not by works, so that no one can boast."
 
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