The quiet despair of Protestants

[fhansen]

What do i care what others think? You believe that Jesus changes bread into human flesh that you can eat. I dressage but do you care?

The human conscience is sovereign, so to speak, so far be it from me to tell you what to think. Everyone can interpret revelation as they see fit. But we're discussing different modes of understanding the faith here and of course most of us would prefer a unity in Christian beliefs, even as some doctrines are more important than others. And I'm hearing objections to the concept of infallibility while some posters such as yourself effectively depend on one of the same mechanisms for knowing the truth as that doctrine claims-that God has led you to it. I'm basically defending the RCC position, as you're defending yours.

 

[W2L]

No, I am lumping Protestants together based on their aversion to tradition, their Sola Scriptura, and their overwhelming divisions. There are lots of non-Catholics who are not Protestants. Please read more carefully.

Thats wrong. Just because someone isnt catholic doesnt mean they belong to the same church. With respect, get real.

 

[W2L]

Lutherans and Seventh day Adventists being of the same church, lol, thanks i needed a laugh.

 

[zippy2006]

Thats wrong. Just because someone isnt catholic doesnt mean they belong to the same church. With respect, get real.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but when one group stays together and another group splits 30,000 times, the first group possesses more unity than the second.

I never said all non-Catholics belong to the same church; that is a silly red herring. Given your apparent inability to comprehend simple arguments this may well be my last post to you.

 

[W2L]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but when one group stays together and another group splits 30,000 times, the first group possesses more unity than the second.

I never said all non-Catholics belong to the same church; that is a silly red herring. Given your apparent inability to comprehend simple arguments this may well be my last post to you.

One group didnt split 30,000 times though. Thats false.

 

[zippy2006]

One group didnt split 30,000 times though. Thats false.

How many Protestant denominations do you think there are? Estimates differ, but the point I was making holds with each different estimate.

 

[W2L]

How many Protestant denominations do you think there are? Estimates differ, but the point I was making holds with each different estimate.

They didnt split from one group.

 

[Albion]

My comparison is not arbitrary, it is based on self-identification. Those who self-identify as Catholics are relatively united; those who self-identify as Protestants are relatively divided. My argument certainly falls to pieces if Catholics are Protestants. Luckily that is an absurdly false idea.

My point was that the argument you are using is a Catholic myth at best and probably should be recognized as a trick with numbers as well.

Leaving aside the myth part for a moment, if I compare almost any single denomination against 30,000 others at once, 30,000 vs 1, the one denomination is going to look more homogenous! Well, duh.

And as for what I am calling a Catholic myth (because the idea is routinely taught to Catholic schoolchildren and converts to the church), the differences in belief among the members is no better than it is with most of the 30,000 other denominations.

It is true that the church itself has one official belief when it comes to most doctrinal matters, but that doesn't keep all sort of members from saying that their "church is wrong about that and I hope they change it," all the while they remain loyal members in good standing. And do not overlook the fact that most of the Protestant churches also have creedal statements themselves.

 

[Albion]

How many Protestant denominations do you think there are? Estimates differ, but the point I was making holds with each different estimate.

So what? These are different churches with different histories. There is no validity to talking as though they are branches of schisms of the same denomination.

Be aware that the study you are referring to which listed 30,000 (or whatever) number of denominations also listed approximately 300 different Roman Catholic Churches! That's not 300 different Catholic-type denominations or different rites within the Church, but 300 or so separate Roman Catholic Churches. That is not unity such as you have been claiming.

 

[zippy2006]

Be aware that the study you are referring to which listed 30,000 (or whatever) number of denominations also listed approximately 300 different Roman Catholic Churches! That's not 300 different Catholic-type denominations or different rites within the Church, but 300 or so separate Roman Catholic Churches. That is not unity such as you have been claiming.

300 vs. 30,000? Sure it is. That is 100x more unity.

 

[Concord1968]

300 vs. 30,000? Sure it is. That is 100x more unity.

The fact that it lists 300 separate "Catholic" denominations should be raising a whole parade of red flags for you. Rather than trying to continue to make hay, you should be questioning their whack statistics. ALL of them.

 

[zippy2006]

The fact that it lists 300 separate "Catholic" denominations should be raising a whole parade of red flags for you. Rather than trying to continue to make hay, you should be questioning their whack statistics. ALL of them.

Lol, no, the point is that no one seems to be following the argument. All I have been offered are red herrings, and the fact that I have made my case abundantly clear seems to indicate that folks just don't want to understand the argument.

There are various different sources that arrive at ~30,000 Protestant denominations, and no one thinks that things like the World Christian Encyclopedia are inherently unreliable. If their criteria yields 300 Catholic denominations my point still holds just fine, unless you are claiming that 300 and 30,000 are pretty much the same?

 

[Concord1968]

Lol, no, the point is that no one seems to be following the argument. All I have been offered are red herrings, and the fact that I have made my case abundantly clear seems to indicate that folks just don't want to understand the argument.

There are various different sources that arrive at ~30,000 Protestant denominations, and no one thinks that things like the World Christian Encyclopedia are inherently unreliable. If their criteria yields 300 Catholic denominations my point still holds just fine, unless you are claiming that 300 and 30,000 are pretty much the same?

No, I'm claiming it's evidence that they're using bad statistical methodology, which renders ALL their findings suspect.

 

[zippy2006]

No, I'm claiming it's evidence that they're using bad statistical methodology, which renders ALL their findings suspect.

I understand that. My response is that they are a professional encyclopedia and as long as their criteria are applied consistently they will accurately manifest differences of unity despite methodological flaws.

(Again though, we've moved from my basic argument, to an example I gave, to one source that aligns with that example)

 

[Albion]

300 vs. 30,000? Sure it is. That is 100x more unity.

Well, you are still comparing ONE DENOMINATION to thousands of others, so of course the figures are not going to be equal.

But I do not see 300 different and competing Roman Catholic Church jurisdictions as representing "Unity," and I have to wonder about an argument that says it does or that there even is such a thing as "more unity." "More unity" is an oxymoron, literally meaning "not united."

 

[W2L]

Well, you are still comparing ONE DENOMINATION to thousands of others, so of course the figures are not going to be equal.

But I do not see 300 different and competing Roman Catholic Church jurisdictions as representing "Unity," and I have to wonder about an argument that says it does or that there even is such a thing as "more unity." "More unity" is an oxymoron, literally meaning "not united."

300 divisions seems like an awful lot.

 

[Albion]

It is, but if someone wants to claim that their favorite denomination is united WHILE there are 30,000 other denominations (supposedly proving that they are disunited), then he is stuck with the same survey for both. In this case, the survey said there are 30,000 denominations, among which there are 300 or so which are Roman Catholic denominations.

You obviously cannot use one survey to determine how many denominations there are which you don't like for some reason or other...and a totally different one to determine the condition of your own by comparison.

 

[zippy2006]

and I have to wonder about an argument that says it does or that there even is such a thing as "more unity." "More unity" is an oxymoron, literally meaning "not united."

No, there is more unity and less unity. Unity isn't a monolithic, univocal, binary concept. This is just commonsense being obscured by personal desires. He who has eyes, let him see.

 

[Albion]

No, there is more unity and less unity.

Kinda like being a little pregnant or a lot pregnant, I suppose. But even if we were to accept your premise that to be sorta united means to be actually united, it is evident from the sources you yourself chose to use to prove it that this isn't the case with Catholicism. There are, by the way, all sorts of Protestant denominations that are not split into 300 different varieties.

And that is not something shameful; it is just what the findings of the research that you used to make your case showed.

 

[zippy2006]

Kinda like being a little pregnant or a lot pregnant, I suppose. But even if we were to accept your premise that to be sorta united means to be actually united, it is evident from the sources you yourself chose to use to prove it that this isn't the case with Catholicism. There are, by the way, all sorts of Protestant denominations that are not split into 300 different varieties.

And that is not something shameful; it is just what the findings of the research that you used to make your case showed.

Albion, remember that there are various different studies showing ~30,000 Protestant denominations. You are the one who selectively picked one and claimed a contradiction, not me.

My argument is about differing levels of unity between traditional Churches and Protestant churches. If, by your own standards, you accept a 300 vs. 30,000 statistic, then my conclusion holds. "Catholics are not perfectly united" is not a valid counterargument. This has been pointed out too many times now.