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The question SDA never answer.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by OrthodoxyUSA, Dec 5, 2013.

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  1. VictorC

    VictorC Jesus - that's my final answer

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    I think you misread what I posted. The overall narrative of Hebrews following v7:12 describes the Law being moved (changing location is another way of describing its loss of jurisdiction) en toto - addressing it as a singular covenant that was rendered 'obsolete' (v8:13) and 'taken away' (v10:9) by the Hand of God.

    The 'they' you refer to attempt to divide the first covenant into bits and pieces, using imaginary arguments such as 'civil law' and artificial 'moral vs. ceremonial' dichotomies the Law doesn't allow for.
     
  2. Shimshon

    Shimshon Well-Known Member

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    Try King Ahab, and King Rehoboam, and King Joash for starters. 1 Kings 12:18, 21:13-14 and 2 Chronicles 10:18.

    All stonings authorized or accomplished when Israel had kings.

    And let's not forget Zechariah 2 Chron 24:21
     
  3. Sophrosyne

    Sophrosyne Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16

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    I posted a scripture where they stoned Stephen to death. Stonings never stopped while Israel was allowed to do them they did.
    As God created the Law he can step in as judge and decide how to apply it. I believe throughout the Old Testament people were not automatically stoned in every case but I do believe for the most part it was the norm and people in the New Testament were usually very eager to join in as it was their duty to do so. The fact Christians were stoned to death wrongly or not shows you that it never stopped.
     
  4. Shimshon

    Shimshon Well-Known Member

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    So how did they change? Are they worthless now? Have they decaded and vanished away?
     
  5. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    Thank you for a thoughtful reply. If Seventh Day Adventists mark distinctions between moral and sacrificial laws then they are doing nothing that others have not done before them however when the scriptures speak of the law it is not so easy to mark the same distinctions.

    Consider second Corinthians chapter three; in that chapter Paul definitely singles out the ten commandments as law that has lost its application to Christians because he refers to the ten commandments as the ministry of death and the ministry of condemnation. He would not say these things if he intended Christians to live under the ten commandments.

    Yet Paul (following the example of Jesus) does not dismiss the law as something worthless.

    It is therefore incumbent on Christians to distinguish the proper from the improper uses of the law rather than to mark distinctions between moral and sacrificial laws because it is the whole of the law - including the ten commandments - that has faded away and not just the sacrificial provisions.

    Jesus gives us guidance about the proper and improper uses of the law and Paul (following the example of Jesus Christ) reiterates the teaching of Christ for those to whom he wrote.

    I am confident that our readers are familiar with the passages that spell out the proper use of the law as well as the passages that spell out the improper uses of the law. I can reproduce the passages if asked.

    God bless
     
  6. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The law of Liberty.

    God be gracious to me a sinner.
     
  7. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is this what you are referring to?
    God be gracious to me a sinner.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  8. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And this would be where things leave 'The Church' and Christianity. And why I inferred 'picking and choosing'.

    God be gracious to me a sinner.
     
  9. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

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    I was referring to the first bullet in the definition. The KJV says changed opposed to moved. Yes the authority to be priest was transferred. How does this include the Ten Commandments being transferred from stone to the heart, especially when God says make a new covenant...not according to... I don't see this as proof of the same laws given to Israel being written on anyone's heart. The passage moves from covenant to My law. They insist the Ten Commandments are the all inclusive law of God. This is why some of them have started using the phrase "law of God" in place of the "Ten Commandments" they used to say. This way they can waffle much better. But the problem they have is the Bible. Moses says No one prior to Israel had the law which Moses calls the covenant. So using the law of God allows them the liberty of saying Abraham obeyed the law of God while they realize they can't legitimately say Abraham kept the Ten Commandments. Then one they have someone going they sub in the Ten Commandments as the law of God. They hope the reader can't remember about Abraham and Moses or even Paul's words of Galatians.
     
  10. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

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    Yes that's true about them artificially dividing the law.

    The word transfer allows them to avoid Mat 5:17-18 about jots and tittles.
     
  11. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

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    Seems like I remember they stoned Paul outside of the national promised land in Lystra by Jews from Antioch and Iconium. Acts 14
     
  12. VictorC

    VictorC Jesus - that's my final answer

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    Did you follow the link to the Blue Letter Bible site? The definition for the Greek metathesis depends on the context it is used in. The common use of 'change' is easier to insert into the English text, and while it conveys enough that it won't lead you wrong, the English word selected doesn't accurately represent the entire meaning of the Greek. When the immediate context tells us the law is 'annulled' (v7:18) and later 'taken away' (v10:9), we can view the change in the Law as moved out of the way.

    That isn't a sufficient explanation. As v7:14 says, Moses said nothing about a priest coming from the tribe Jesus was accounted as being from. Jesus can't be our High Priest without taking the first covenant away that prohibits Him from officiating in our behalf.

    It doesn't.
    Not unless you follow the consistency to acknowledge God ripping out that old covenant rendered 'obsolete' (v8:13) and taking it away. Besides, Romans 2:15 shows the Law working in the hearts of the Gentiles before the new covenant was made, and their disposition before the Gospel was to perish without the Law.

    Exactly. Nothing according to the first covenant, which was the Ten Commandments and the Book of the Law from Mount Sinai.
    Ezekiel 36:27 will spell out what -or rather Who- God wrote into us, and it is confirmed in Galatians 4:6. God's "My law" can easily be construed to refer to the only authority He is Himself subject to, and that is Himself.

    I hope you understand what the inspired author of Hebrews is meaning to convey a bit better now.
     
  13. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

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    Well they give some kind of response. The problem I have is I just can never line it up with the entire Bible. Just to many problems with their responses to accept anything they say.
     
  14. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

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    Yes it is one of my most used sites. It fits with your bullets very well. In fact you may have even c&p them.

    Most versions of the Bible use change. Must be for a reason. Personally I like change better because of the implications. I agreed with you that change could mean transfer. If I say the priesthood was transferred and the law must be transferred nothing changes with the law. Thus they can say the law written on the heart has merely moved from the stone tablets to our hearts. No sale because of Jer 31:31-33. It says specifically I will make (cut new stone) covenant....Not according to (not a copy of) the covenant made with their fathers in the day...

    Verse 33 - But(shows objection or difference this shall be the covenant (..not according to...)that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law (not the covenant made with their fathers) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    This shows without doubt the new covenant is different and not transferred (moved). The reality is in fact a literal change with no transfer. Yes the moral aspects of both covenants are the same. Sin never changed. Remember sin was before the law - Rom 5:13 and the law was for a period of time Gal 3:17-19.

    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    Correct and this is change meaning different from -not transferred no change. This is why I like the words change and changed.
    I can't say what God did with the Old Covenant. I agree with you here But Hebrews clearly indicates replacement not transference. Not Rom 2:15 doesn't say the law was written on the heart of the gentiles especially prior to becoming Christians. The law was never given to the Gentiles in any fashion according to Deut 5.
    :thumbsup::amen:
    :)
     
  15. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Mitzvot to Law of the Spirit.
     
  16. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Hebrews 8:13
    By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

    before getting any nickers in a wad...read Jeremiah 31
     
  17. Shiny Gospel Shoes

    Shiny Gospel Shoes Active Member

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    Please allow a brief repetition, with additional:



    Therefore, please allow me to ask in return, where was there any Levitical Priesthood in Exodus 5-20?

    Is it not apparent that it is seen in Exodus 28, while God is speaking to Moses still upon the Mount, that the Levitical Priesthood, as underneath Aaron was not yet existant, and it is not even until Exodus 39 that the outfit of the Highpriest, who would be Aaron, was even made? and finally coming to Exodus 40:13, wherein Aaron and his sons were anointed to serve in the Levitical priesthood?

    Can you see even by vs 5,9,11-12,21,23,27,28, it speaks of the Levitical Priesthood being changed, and the law that made them?

    What law of the 10 C made Levitical priests or priesthood?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  18. SG9

    SG9 Guest

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    Hello PK, noting your quote marked in red, can you then tell us what part of the law is/was abolished?

    And I was wondering if I am misunderstanding your position in this discussion, and perhaps you can clear this up; you imply, "we" in your defense for the SDA church but your denomination indicates that you are a Christian, and GT forum is for Christians only. Which are you? Thanks :)
     
  19. Keachian

    Keachian On Sabbatical

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    I refer you to 2 Cor 3:7ff as MoreCoffee posted, I'll highlight some of the meaningful phrases that the blessed Apostle to the Gentiles uses to talk about what has been done away with:

    Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.​

    Paul Identifies the Law which has given way to the Spirit, he uses the phrase carved in letters on stone it is of high importance to the SDA that this carving of letters of stone point to the eternality of the Law, however as the Apostle describes it was being brought to an end to give way to the ministry of the Spirit it is of high importance to the SDA that the Judgment be prefigured in condemnation this is after all the ministry of the Law, however the ministry of the Spirit is one of righteousness Let's continue on.

    Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.​

    Since that which was carved in letters on stone has a glory that fades, surely it too will fade, that is the argument of the Apostle here, it is also surpassed in glory by that which supercedes it, that which is permanent is far surpassing in glory.

    Since we have such a hope, we are very bold,[bless and do not curse]not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.​

    Here Paul continues to talk about the effects of the Law, remember it is that which was carved in letters on stone Since we can easily see Moses as a figuring of Christ in his Priesthood in his work of Mediation between the People of Israel and God at Sinai, we have as a result of the Law the veiling of Moses, yet we are very bold surely in one sense this means that we commune, or are able to commune with God, for how else would such a comparison be made, indeed Christ himself may speak of this when he says You are the Light of the World. We are to radiate the glory of God so that men might be convicted of heart, for he says elsewhere Be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish amongst a twisted and perverse generation, to whom you shine as lights of the world, we who are of the Spirit are bold to expose the evil of man, Moses was timid and because of this he veiled his face to stifle the glory of God. Christ however takes away the veil that is in place because of the Law.

    when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.​

    Having been unshackled from the bonds of the veil of the Law, we truly behold the Glory of God and in beholding the Glory of God we die.

    This death is not one such that we are bound in Hades, no it is death to self, death to the flesh, we crucify the old man with his passions and the Spirit takes us like a lump of clay and begins his work, he identifies us with Christ through our Baptism, and grows us into Christ himself through faith and his enduring faithfulness.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  20. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's because SDA are 'reverse engineering' the scriptures in an effort to make an end theory seem correct.

    It's a sideshow trick that seeks to convince the viewer that first, everything 'must' line up the way the presenter lays it out.

    The true student of these things sees the fallacy immediately.

    With the foundation of the scriptures removed, they may be misused in many ways.

    The thing that bothers me about the SDA teaching is that it leads people away from Apostolic Christianity into what they have lined up. Death for the soul.

    It's a scam, and their members are to be prayed for... they have fallen for a set of lies to replace Apostolic Christian truths.

    I would rather see their members in the worst of our Apostolic Churches than where they are now.

    God be gracious to me a sinner.
     
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