The Prophet Elijah returning is through John the Baptist?

[LoveofTruth]

So a few things. One I just got educated on the Jewish Prophecy that says that Elijah is going to return. Apparently Christ says that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of that prophecy. But my question is though that if John the Baptist was the fulfillment of that prophecy than why did he say that he wasn't Elijah before the Romans killed him? I mean the Jews raise a really good point and didn't God say that the prophet Elijah would come as himself and not as John the Baptist? I'm confused.

In the spirit and power of Elijah

“ Luke 1:17. “And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

 

[His student]

So a few things. One I just got educated on the Jewish Prophecy that says that Elijah is going to return. Apparently Christ says that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of that prophecy. But my question is though that if John the Baptist was the fulfillment of that prophecy than why did he say that he wasn't Elijah before the Romans killed him? I mean the Jews raise a really good point and didn't God say that the prophet Elijah would come as himself and not as John the Baptist? I'm confused.

John the Baptist was Elijah - from his conception to his death. Jesus said it and I believe it.

Jesus said that of those born of women (Himself excluded of course) John was the greatest. Besides the Lord Himself, John was the only human being since the fall to be born spiritually alive and not need to be born again.

John did not understand this and I believe that was God's doing. It would be a difficult thing to have lived as someone else and live life again as another person.

And NO - that would not be "reincarnation" since Elijah never died before his spirit came again in John.

Perhaps someone will object and say that is not possible - it doesn't work that way. All I can say is that you must know a lot more about the nature of spirits in general and how and when the spirits of men are created and how and when they are assigned to a human body than any theologian I have ever read on the subject - and I've read a lot of them in a life going on 80 years now.

 

[Residential Bob]

Elijah will come back for the 3rd and final time.

Just like a futurist, you're hell-bent on inventing your own scripture.

Or can you cite the passage you're referring to?

 

[Residential Bob]

John the Baptist was Elijah - from his conception to his death. Jesus said it and I believe it.

Jesus said that of those born of women (Himself excluded of course) John was the greatest. Besides the Lord Himself, John was the only human being since the fall to be born spiritually alive and not need to be born again.

John did not understand this and I believe that was God's doing. It would be a difficult thing to have lived as someone else and live life again as another person.

And NO - that would not be "reincarnation" since Elijah never died before his spirit came again in John.

Perhaps someone will object and say that is not possible - it doesn't work that way. All I can say is that you must know a lot more about the nature of spirits in general and how and when the spirits of men are created and how and when they are assigned to a human body than any theologian I have ever read on the subject - and I've read a lot of them in a life going on 80 years now.

"John was the only human being since the fall to be born spiritually alive and not need to be born again"? Honestly? Where do you get that from?


"The Law and the Prophets were until John" (Lk 16:16).

Until John the Baptist, Malachi was the last prophet.

The last prophet carries the heaviest burden. History begins to hang on his words. John the Baptist closed the Prophetic Age. Though his own father and Jesus saw what he failed to see, he vindicated Malachi. “Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees,” John said, vindicating Malachi again (4:1). The unfruitful Jewish theocracy would be cut down. Even now, as John is speaking. Before the destruction of the temple, before Christ began his ministry, the Baptist announced the fulfillment of Malachi’s prophecies. The time of the end was beginning now.

No other prophecy needed to be uttered.

 

[Pethesedzao]

Just like a futurist, you're hell-bent on inventing your own scripture.

Or can you cite the passage you're referring to?

Elijah is one of the two witnesses as described in the Revelations

 

[Residential Bob]

Elijah is one of the two witnesses as described in the Revelations

Naturally.

 

[Not David]

Like Elijah, Jesus came again in power and spirit.

Mainstream Christianity gets hung up on the flesh, which is foolishness. Jesus himself said the flesh is useless, that life is in the spirit (John 6:63).

Ultimately the human being is spirit. This is the way he lives with the Father.

The human being is both spiritual and corporeal. We are waiting for the resurrection of the dead.

 

[Christopher0121]

Here's an idea...

In Malachi's prophecy, God clearly states:

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:​

Here, God specifies that He will actually send a specified individual, "Elijah the prophet". And God doesn't lie.

However, John claims not to be Elijah the prophet:

John 1:21
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
​

Yet Jesus turns this around saying that John indeed was expected Elias (Elijah):

Matthew 11:13-15
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 17:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

​

Okay, take this in. God promised specifically to send "Elijah the Prophet". John denies being the coming Elijah. Then Jesus confirms that John was indeed the coming Elijah.

We know that Jesus and God wouldn't lie. So, we'd expect God to actually send "Elijah the Prophet".

And, based on Christ's words, "Elias is come already".

Now, was John lying??? No.

Then why didn't John admit that he was the expected "Elijah the Prophet"?

I propose that John simply didn't know.

You see, man is body, soul, and spirit:

Body: Physical and biological aspect of man
Soul: Psychological aspect of man (reason, will, emotions)
Spirit: Spiritual aspect of man (living essence, intuition, spirituality)

​

Is it possible that the "spirit" of Elijah was truly present in John? The soul would be different, given John's perspective. As a result, John would not have known that he was Elijah... although he was.

Thoughts?

 

[Pethesedzao]

Naturally.

Spiritually as well?

 

[Neostarwcc]

Here's an idea...

In Malachi's prophecy, God clearly states:

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:​

Here, God specifies that He will actually send a specified individual, "Elijah the prophet". And God doesn't lie.

However, John claims not to be Elijah the prophet:

John 1:21
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
​

Yet Jesus turns this around saying that John indeed was expected Elias (Elijah):

Matthew 11:13-15
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 17:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

​

Okay, take this in. God promised specifically to send "Elijah the Prophet". John denies being the coming Elijah. Then Jesus confirms that John was indeed the coming Elijah.

We know that Jesus and God wouldn't lie. So, we'd expect God to actually send "Elijah the Prophet".

And, based on Christ's words, "Elias is come already".

Now, was John lying??? No.

Then why didn't John admit that he was the expected "Elijah the Prophet"?

I propose that John simply didn't know.

You see, man is body, soul, and spirit:

Body: Physical and biological aspect of man
Soul: Psychological aspect of man (reason, will, emotions)
Spirit: Spiritual aspect of man (living essence, intuition, spirituality)

​

Is it possible that the "spirit" of Elijah was truly present in John? The soul would be different, given John's perspective. As a result, John would not have known that he was Elijah... although he was.

Thoughts?

We were discussing that actually. They John might not have known. But I think the Jews are waiting for the coming of the actual prophet and not John the Baptist. Even if John the Baptist was Elijah in spirit.

 

[His student]

"John was the only human being since the fall to be born spiritually alive and not need to be born again"? Honestly? Where do you get that from?

"....he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God. It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” Luke 1:15-17

"For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.” Luke 1:44-45

"...if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come." Matt. 11:14

It seems, according to the words of the Lord, that acceptance of His words in this regard is not a theological deal breaker. If the Lord makes it an optional doctrine since it is hard for some to understand - who am I to proclaim it otherwise? Some can receive this truth from the lips of Jesus and some cannot. I am willing to accept it. You are not. I'm OK with that.

Assuming you believe in the spiritual deadness of fallen man outside of those born again - I'll leave it up to you and the Lord to examine why you think John had spiritual insight while in the womb.

Of course we should remember that we need to be careful about rejecting things in the scriptures simply because we cannot easily understand them. Those who have - even more will be given to them. Those who do not - even what they think they have will be taken away.

Whether the doctrine has to do with things such as predestination and election or this particular doctrine - I have often observed that those who reject or tweak difficult doctrines often find themselves misunderstanding or changing other doctrines as well (such as salvation by grace).

 

[Residential Bob]

"....he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God. It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” Luke 1:15-17

"For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.” Luke 1:44-45

"...if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come." Matt. 11:14

It seems, according to the words of the Lord, that acceptance of His words in this regard is not a theological deal breaker. If the Lord makes it an optional doctrine since it is hard for some to understand - who am I to proclaim it otherwise? Some can receive this truth from the lips of Jesus and some cannot. I am willing to accept it. You are not. I'm OK with that.

Assuming you believe in the spiritual deadness of fallen man outside of those born again - I'll leave it up to you and the Lord to examine why you think John had spiritual insight while in the womb.

Of course we should remember that we need to be careful about rejecting things in the scriptures simply because we cannot easily understand them. Those who have - even more will be given to them. Those who do not - even what they think they have will be taken away.

Whether the doctrine has to do with things such as predestination and election or this particular doctrine - I have often observed that those who reject or tweak difficult doctrines often find themselves misunderstanding or changing other doctrines as well (such as salvation by grace).

Please. Tell me more about this spiritual insight that I think John had in the womb.

Even better, please expound on this optional doctrine. You've intrigued me.

 

[Christopher0121]

Could the ancient concept of Gilgul help with explaining "John the Baptist" being "Elijah the Prophet"?

 

[Residential Bob]

Could the ancient concept of Gilgul help with explaining "John the Baptist" being "Elijah the Prophet"?

It's already clear.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So a few things. One I just got educated on the Jewish Prophecy that says that Elijah is going to return. Apparently Christ says that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of that prophecy. But my question is though that if John the Baptist was the fulfillment of that prophecy than why did he say that he wasn't Elijah before the Romans killed him? I mean the Jews raise a really good point and didn't God say that the prophet Elijah would come as himself and not as John the Baptist? I'm confused.

John was either ignorant or humble, or perhaps both. Perhaps John himself didn't know, or perhaps John did understand exactly what his prophetic calling was here but sought to avoid any glory for himself--as he insisted that he was merely a voice in the wilderness.

In either case, Jesus gives us exactly the what's what here. Yes, St. John the Baptist was the Elijah who was promised to come. John came in the spirit and power of Elijah for the purpose of calling the people to repentance in anticipation of the coming of the Messiah.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Elijah will return but I won't be here when he does.

You're two thousand years too late. He already came.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Elijah will come back for the 3rd and final time.

False. Scripture mentions only one return of Elijah, and that was fulfilled in the person and ministry of John the Baptist. The Scriptures are explicitly clear on this point.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[His student]

Please. Tell me more about this spiritual insight that I think John had in the womb.

Even better, please expound on this optional doctrine. You've intrigued me.

John recognized the presence of his creator and leaped for joy while a fetus in the womb.

The "optional" doctrine is believing that John was literally Elijah come in the flesh. That over and against some rather vague platitude concerning John being a bit like Elijah in appearance or ministry.

It isn't the end of world theologically to simply pronounce vague bromides about John, Elijah and the fulfillment of scripture in this regard. But it does have ramifications when it comes to one's belief concerning the literal fulfillment of other scriptures - as well as what it means to be born again.

I'd be willing to bet that not believing in a literal coming of Elijah in the form of John will accompany other rather vague and "spiritualized" doctrines in the theology of the person who insists that John wasn't literally Elijah.

Likely the person who insists that Elijah's coming was only spiritual in some vague way would also doubt and even teach against the corporeal/physical coming of the Lord for the second time.

it is perhaps likely that such a person would also reject a literal millennial reign for the Lord, perhaps even a literal Hell.

It is also likely that such a one will find Elijah as one of the two witness in the Book of Revelation as well - even though Elijah was seen on the mountain in bodily form with the Lord at His transfiguration.

Interestingly - I have found that quite often those who make it a big point to argue against a literal fulfillment of Elijah's coming in John the Baptist have a warped view of the salvation process as well.

For instance - the spiritual inability of fallen men to understand the things of God and the need for them to be regenerated by the grace of God in order to say "Jesus is Lord" comes to mind.

Like I said one error or one "spiritualization" often leads or at least accompanies another - or two or three.

Beyond this rough overview - I am not prepared to argue with you further in this regard.

It's up to you and the Lord whether you believe His words or not.

It does strike me however - that if this is the first time you've heard such things - you obviously didn't study the subject very thoroughly before making up your mind in the strong and dogmatic manner you seem to have done.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Elijah is one of the two witnesses as described in the Revelations

Says who? Funny thing about the Revelation, lots of aspects about it are a bit fuzzy. St. Augustine thought the two witnesses were the Old and New Testaments of Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Rubiks]

John the Baptist did not lie, he was not Elijah. Rather he came "in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared" (Luke 1:17).

Don't cherry pick verses here. You're ignoring the verses that literally state John IS Elijah. (BibleGateway is your friend here.)

There's almost certainly a connection with the fact that Elijah never died and that Malachi prophesized his return.