The Problem of Evil (version 12,430,459.7)

[cvanwey]

If the devil exists, would it be safe to conclude that (one) of his objectives would be to harvest or maximize the number of recipients dwelling upon/within his assigned realm?

Assuming the above answer is (yes), let's proceed further, shall we?

Second assumption... The devil has the power to inflict/produce terminal cancer. Again, assuming the devil possesses this ability, we may venture onward...

Third assertion.... God currently allows the devil free will to invoke his wrath upon humanity.

Fourth disclosure.... Getting to heaven requires one of the following; belief and repentance to Jesus, and/or works/acts which reflect God's approval, and/or baptism from original sin, and/or other necessary criteria prior to natural death.

- The devil wishes to maximize the collection human souls.
- The devil has the ability to assign painful and terminal human disease at will.
- God allows for the devil's free will in doing so.
- Regardless of criteria, God necessitates some type of moral action(s), beliefs, and/or other prior to human death, via entrance into His kingdom.

In conclusion, question(s) arises:

1. Why doesn't the devil torture and kill every single infant/child/toddler/other, just short of the point of realized theodicy? If the four above points are necessary, the devil has found a loophool.

Disclaimer, this a thought experiment, which stems off the end of another thread....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Disclaimer, this a thought experiment, which stems off the end of another thread....

So vanity of vanities, all is vane.

Proceeding in vanity:

If the devil exists, would it be safe to conclude that (one) of his objectives would be to harvest or maximize the number of recipients dwelling upon/within his assigned realm?

The enemy of Christ 'loves' you. The world he controls 'loves' you. To condemnation.
As long as they have you, they will do all they can to keep you.

Second assumption... The devil has the power to inflict/produce terminal cancer. Again, assuming the devil possesses this ability, we may venture onward...

The enemy of Christ ONLY can do what he has permission to do.

Third assertion.... God currently allows the devil free will to invoke his wrath upon humanity.

No.
When you see God's wrath, you will see it is billions upon billions of times eternally worse than anything ever seen in your lifetime on earth. Far far far worse than the holocausts and programs that murdered tens of millions of men, women and children.

 

[-57]

If the devil exists, would it be safe to conclude that (one) of his objectives would be to harvest or maximize the number of recipients dwelling upon/within his assigned realm?

Assuming the above answer is (yes), let's proceed further, shall we?

Second assumption... The devil has the power to inflict/produce terminal cancer. Again, assuming the devil possesses this ability, we may venture onward...

Third assertion.... God currently allows the devil free will to invoke his wrath upon humanity.

Fourth disclosure.... Getting to heaven requires one of the following; belief and repentance to Jesus, and/or works/acts which reflect God's approval, and/or baptism from original sin, and/or other necessary criteria prior to natural death.

- The devil wishes to maximize the collection human souls.
- The devil has the ability to assign painful and terminal human disease at will.
- God allows for the devil's free will in doing so.
- Regardless of criteria, God necessitates some type of moral action(s), beliefs, and/or other prior to human death, via entrance into His kingdom.

In conclusion, question(s) arises:

1. Why doesn't the devil torture and kill every single infant/child/toddler/other, just short of the point of realized theodicy? If the four above points are necessary, the devil has found a loophool.

Disclaimer, this a thought experiment, which stems off the end of another thread....

I don't think Satan has the free-will you proclaim. In the first two chapters of
Job Satan needs Gods permission.

 

[Resha Caner]

If the devil exists, would it be safe to conclude that (one) of his objectives would be to harvest or maximize the number of recipients dwelling upon/within his assigned realm?

Your phrasing appears to mask an ulterior motive. I will point out that the devil's final fate is not his "realm" any more than heaven is my realm. The most we can know of the devil's fate is that he will be banished from God's presence and it won't be pleasant.

We also don't know much about his goals. We just know he's a bad dude bent on destruction.

Why doesn't the devil torture and kill every single infant/child/toddler/other?

Because he doesn't have that power. The devil is not God's evil twin. He is a created, fallen being.

If the four above points are necessary, the devil has found a loophole.

I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something since I wasn't in the other thread you mention, but I don't see a loophole here. What loophole are you talking about?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't think Satan has the free-will you proclaim. In the first two chapters of
Job Satan needs Gods permission.

He rules the sons of disobedience today all over the world. (Ephesians 2)
They are sick and dying daily, even God' Own people perish for lack of knowledge - many are sick and dying in the assemblies. (as written somewhere - Corinthian?) ...

Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to ...
Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
◄ Ephesians 2:2 ►. Ephesians 4:17 So I tell you this, and testify to it in the Lord: You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on the sons of disobedience.

What does Ephesians 2:2 mean? - BibleRef.com
What does Ephesians 2:2 mean?
Ephesians 2:2, NASB: "in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." Ephesians 2:2, NLT: "You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen ...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Your phrasing appears to mask an ulterior motive.

Having seen and read a number of his posts over the last few months at least,
yes, his motive is apparently hidden in many posts, and not as if seeking truth at all, so far.

 

[cvanwey]

I don't think Satan has the free-will you proclaim. In the first two chapters of
Job Satan needs Gods permission.

Let's follow down this path

I have to clarify a bit, to see your position.

Does the devil have the ability to give humans cancer (yes or no)?

If (yes), this would mean God sometimes gives the devil permission to infect some kids agonizing terminal cancer. If (no), what or whom is sometimes allowing the cancer, which kills the children before theodicy?

More questions to follow, but I need to know your position first

 

[cvanwey]

Your phrasing appears to mask an ulterior motive. I will point out that the devil's final fate is not his "realm" any more than heaven is my realm. The most we can know of the devil's fate is that he will be banished from God's presence and it won't be pleasant.

We also don't know much about his goals. We just know he's a bad dude bent on destruction.



Because he doesn't have that power. The devil is not God's evil twin. He is a created, fallen being.



I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something since I wasn't in the other thread you mention, but I don't see a loophole here. What loophole are you talking about?

You state you don't know much about his goals or his abilities. I'm presenting a thought experiment. And maybe you do not fit the criteria, for this thread, but I know many might. Meaning, many believe the four points above. And the ones that do, may then need to reconcile that the devil could simply harvest ALL souls for his realm, simply by killing them before theodicy. None would ever go to heaven, since God would not disrupt the devil's free will. And he could have fun doing it too, by torturing them first.

But since you may not agree with the above 4 points, in the OP, we might then venture down another path, for 'the problem of evil' (i.e) What is God's purpose, if it is not Satan whom is the direct perpetuator, in allowing for child suffrage?

But at the end of the day, even if the devil does have the ability to give children cancer and die, he does not do it all the time. Which might mean god does not always allow for him to do so? Which begs the question, why might He allow for some, and not others?

As stated in the title, the 'problem of evil' is a rather large and messy topic (i.e.) version 'whatever'. And many theists admit, it is one of the 'biggest pills to swallow', while retaining faith

So if you care to engage, great. If not, I might not blame you; as it may be never-ending

 

[Resha Caner]

So if you care to engage, great. If not, I might not blame you; as it may be never-ending

I'm sure the topic will never die in the world at large; I doubt we'll bring a discussion between us to a satisfying end. But I'm willing to talk as long as you wish.

As stated in the title, the 'problem of evil' is a rather large and messy topic (i.e.) version 'whatever'. And many theists admit, it is one of the 'biggest pills to swallow', while retaining faith

I realize some struggle with it. In years past I did wrestle with the question, but only due to intellectual curiosity. It never gave pause to my faith. The realities of life are much more challenging to faith than intellectual debate.​

But since you may not agree with the above 4 points, in the OP, we might then venture down another path, for 'the problem of evil' (i.e) What is God's purpose, if it is not Satan whom is the direct perpetuator, in allowing for child suffrage?

I think it's an ill-formed question, so we'd have to go the long way round for you to understand my perspective on theodicy. However, for the time being I'll give the answer you've probably heard many times: God created a world that was good and gave those who inhabit it a free will. It is our short-sightedness that causes pain. Despite that, for every possible scenario, God can bring it to a good end.

Now let me ask you: Why does it matter? Given your willingness to concede, for the sake of this discussion, that God is God, what difference would it make if you knew God's purpose? Since God is God you would never be able to thwart that purpose to bring the end you think is better. So, just think of him as evil and be done with it.

 

[cvanwey]

I think it's an ill-formed question, so we'd have to go the long way round for you to understand my perspective on theodicy. However, for the time being I'll give the answer you've probably heard many times: God created a world that was good and gave those who inhabit it a free will. It is our short-sightedness that causes pain. Despite that, for every possible scenario, God can bring it to a good end.

I need some clarification here? Since God is the creator of things, did He also create cancer, or did Satan, or maybe other? Cancer did not just spontaneously come into existence without intentional creation from some agent, did it?

Now let me ask you: Why does it matter? Given your willingness to concede, for the sake of this discussion, that God is God, what difference would it make if you knew God's purpose? Since God is God you would never be able to thwart that purpose to bring the end you think is better. So, just think of him as evil and be done with it.

Great question/comment I have told others, if God does exist, He could do whatever He wants, as He would answer to no one.

I admit, I [was] a believer for decades. Hence, my interest and coming here to inquire about topics in which I now 'find' error/faults. I now pose such topics here, which I find possible fault; to see if they 'hold water.'

And yes, if God does exist, seems more logical to conclude that maybe He is not 'pure love', depending on your definition.

 

[Resha Caner]

And yes, if God does exist, seems more logical to conclude that maybe He is not 'pure love', depending on your definition.

Yep. I would agree with 1 John 4:8. You would not.

I need some clarification here? Since God is the creator of things, did He also create cancer, or did Satan, or maybe other? Cancer did not just spontaneously come into existence without intentional creation from some agent, did it?

You skew the meaning of "creator of all things". You know that is not and never was the intent of Colossians 1:16, etc. so let's not play those games. There is no reason someone had to intentionally create cancer.

 

[cvanwey]

You skew the meaning of "creator of all things". You know that is not and never was the intent of Colossians 1:16, etc. so let's not play those games. There is no reason someone had to intentionally create cancer.

I did no such thing. Please read what I wrote. I stated in post #10:

"Since God is the creator of things,"

Notice I did not state all things, just things. I'm asking you how cancer came about? Did God have His hand in it's existence, or maybe did Satan create it? Or other?

 

[-57]

He rules the sons of disobedience today all over the world. (Ephesians 2)
They are sick and dying daily, even God' Own people perish for lack of knowledge - many are sick and dying in the assemblies. (as written somewhere - Corinthian?) ...

Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to ...
Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
◄ Ephesians 2:2 ►. Ephesians 4:17 So I tell you this, and testify to it in the Lord: You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on the sons of disobedience.

What does Ephesians 2:2 mean? - BibleRef.com
What does Ephesians 2:2 mean?
Ephesians 2:2, NASB: "in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." Ephesians 2:2, NLT: "You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen ...

Doesn't matter. If God doesn't allow the devil to mess with you...he can't. But as we know from Job's account...God does allow it.

 

[Resha Caner]

Notice I did not state all things, just things. I'm asking you how cancer came about? Did God have His hand in it's existence, or maybe did Satan create it? Or other?

Sin, i.e. an imperfect world.

Cancer is an uncontrolled growth of abnormal cells, these abnormal cells resulting from a mutation of the DNA. Possible causes of mutation are well-documented. Note the term "abnormal". A clinical, secular, unbelieving (or whatever term you prefer for it) explanation takes the view that cancer, while not typical of cells, is natural - in keeping with the possibilities of our world. It is only human value judgements, our desires, that label it as an imperfection.

So, the secular world has tried to deal with the problem of evil by eliminating the concept from its worldview. Is that how you deal with it? If you allow the concept of evil into your worldview, you have the same problem of identifying its origin that believers do. What is your position?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Doesn't matter. If God doesn't allow the devil to mess with you...he can't. But as we know from Job's account...God does allow it.

WELL, it MIGHT matter to someone who is sick.

They MIGHT want to know why they and so many others are sick.

They MIGHT recover, and be able to help others then.

 

[-57]

WELL, it MIGHT matter to someone who is sick.

They MIGHT want to know why they and so many others are sick.

They MIGHT recover, and be able to help others then.

We live in a fallen world.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We live in a fallen world.

Does ANYONE recover ? From physical problems? From spiritual problems?

 

[-57]

Does ANYONE recover ? From physical problems? From spiritual problems?

Of course.

 

[cvanwey]

Sin, i.e. an imperfect world.

Cancer is an uncontrolled growth of abnormal cells, these abnormal cells resulting from a mutation of the DNA. Possible causes of mutation are well-documented.

Do (you) subscribe to the conclusion that the mutation of cells is a purely natural process, which requires/required no intervention from some 'agent/other'? The reason I ask, is because of posts #8 and #10. (i.e) This thought experiment may not be up your alley? You may not subscribe to the notion that some 'agency' is required to set cancer into motion? However, if you don't, I have to ask, why is the topics like 'abiogenesis' not possible, when you accept other science? Or is it possible? And if 'abiogenesis' is, how do you reconcile this conclusion with 'creationism'? See below...

So, the secular world has tried to deal with the problem of evil by eliminating the concept from its worldview. Is that how you deal with it? If you allow the concept of evil into your worldview, you have the same problem of identifying its origin that believers do.

What is your position?

I do not currently believe in the supernatural (i.e.): psychics, ghosts, spirits, witches, demons, god(s), etc.... Does this mean they don't exist? I just currently don't believe in them.

I am also a moral relativist. Thus, 'the problem of evil' does not apply to me I'm asking theists here. Because, well, this is an apologetics forum arena, and when I have questions, rather than ask the general public, which either does not think about such topics as I, or don't wish to debate them, I bring them here - to present to individuals who maybe have more-so been thinking, or exposed to, these topics specifically

 

[Resha Caner]

I am also a moral relativist. Thus, 'the problem of evil' does not apply to me

Sorry, but it does. My point in the previous post is that statements like "I'm a moral relativist" just kick the can down the road. Rather than, "Why does God allow evil?" The question becomes, "Why do people make different moral decisions?" You still have to answer.​

Do (you) subscribe to the conclusion that the mutation of cells is a purely natural process, which requires/required no intervention from some 'agent/other'? The reason I ask, is because of posts #8 and #10. (i.e) This thought experiment may not be up your alley? You may not subscribe to the notion that some 'agency' is required to set cancer into motion? However, if you don't, I have o ask, why is the topics like 'abiogenesis' not possible, when you accept other science? Or is it possible? And if 'abiogenesis' is, how do you reconcile this conclusion with 'creationism'? See below...

Each of those topics is a lengthy discussion. Science is not a monolith that must be taken whole in order to subscribe to the method. I'm an engineer by trade, and use science on a daily basis. Even as an engineer there are things at work that I accept and things I reject. It's part of the method.

I thought I had answered your question. No, there is no need to invoke some conscious agent who causes cancer. But neither am I a believer in "nature", which I believe to be an under-the-table way for materialists to sneak in spirituality in the guise of secular terminology. As I told you, it's a result of sin.