The Problem of Evil.(Theodicy)

What is your view on Evil?

  • Leibniz. "Best of All Possible Worlds." Evil as bad taste.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Augustine. "Original Sin." Evil as the absence of Good.

    Votes: 5 83.3%
  • Plotinus. "Heart of Darkness." Evil as deprivation.

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • No Evil.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    6

RichardY

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1) A perfectly good God, would not allow for any ultimate Evil.
2) Man as separate from God, came to know Evil. But is saved through Jesus Christ.
3) Pure Evil as deprivation, does not exist, and that's kind of the point.
4) Possible ways of dealing with No Evil: Gnosticism(Knowledge). Voluntarism(Will as paramount). Self-annihilation.

Curious what people's thoughts are on Evil. Personally I think Evil is a kind of deprivation.

Theodicy - Wikipedia
 

devin553344

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I think evil is the absence of good. But clearly God creates evil. But he locks it up in spirit prison.

Isaiah 45:7

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

But I'm not sure God does not exist in evil creatures:

Ephesians 4:6

"one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

Interesting topic, thanks :)
 
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Kris Jordan

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1) A perfectly good God, would not allow for any ultimate Evil.
2) Man as separate from God, came to know Evil. But is saved through Jesus Christ.
3) Pure Evil as deprivation, does not exist, and that's kind of the point.
4) Possible ways of dealing with No Evil: Gnosticism(Knowledge). Voluntarism(Will as paramount). Self-annihilation.

Curious what people's thoughts are on Evil. Personally I think Evil is a kind of deprivation.

Theodicy - Wikipedia

Hi RichardY,

Simply put, evil (just like all other sin) is anything in action, thought, word, deed, attitude, motive, being, nature, etc., that falls short of God's holy perfection.
 
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RichardY

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There is so much that is wrong. I dont even know where to begin. I answered all because they are all accurate answers to completely different questions about evil.

So you would say the above 3 are valid? That there is Evil.

There is a contemporary concept "Syndiffeonesis" by Christopher Langan. That was foreshadowed by Plotinus.

"The expression and/or existence of any difference relation entails a common medium and syntax. Reality is a relation, and every relation is a syndiffeonic relation exhibiting syndiffeonesis or “difference-in-sameness”. Therefore, reality is a syndiffeonic relation. Syndiffeonesis implies that any assertion to the effect that two things are different implies that they are reductively the same; if their difference is real, then they both reduce to a common reality and are to that extent similar. Syndiffeonesis, the most general of all reductive principles, forms the basis of a new view of the relational structure of reality.."
 
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RichardY

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Hi RichardY,

Simply put, evil (just like all other sin) is anything in action, thought, word, deed, attitude, motive, being, nature, etc., that falls short of God's holy perfection.

Does that mean that Evil, is equivalent to sin?
Or Sin, equivalent to Evil?
What would be the distinction, if any?
 
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Soyeong

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1) A perfectly good God, would not allow for any ultimate Evil.
2) Man as separate from God, came to know Evil. But is saved through Jesus Christ.
3) Pure Evil as deprivation, does not exist, and that's kind of the point.
4) Possible ways of dealing with No Evil: Gnosticism(Knowledge). Voluntarism(Will as paramount). Self-annihilation.

Curious what people's thoughts are on Evil. Personally I think Evil is a kind of deprivation.

Theodicy - Wikipedia

We learn what things are by contrast, so we can't have an understanding of heat without also having an understanding of cold, and cold in the absence of heat. Someone who never experience any change in temperature would not understand heat and cold. The same goes with light and darkness and with good and evil. Evil is not an equal and opposite force to God that is fighting against Him, but is the absence of good.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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1) A perfectly good God, would not allow for any ultimate Evil.
2) Man as separate from God, came to know Evil. But is saved through Jesus Christ.
3) Pure Evil as deprivation, does not exist, and that's kind of the point.
4) Possible ways of dealing with No Evil: Gnosticism(Knowledge). Voluntarism(Will as paramount). Self-annihilation.

Curious what people's thoughts are on Evil. Personally I think Evil is a kind of deprivation.

Theodicy - Wikipedia

I would be closer to Augustine but I think there are other options (the Ancestral Sin view prior to Augustine). Such as Evil arising out of personal choice (a result of the Imago Dei).
Original sin - OrthodoxWiki


Besides that there are folks like Origen that had a more Soul Making Theodicy view of evil.
The Problem of Evil (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
 
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RichardY

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We learn what things are by contrast, so we can't have an understanding of heat without also having an understanding of cold, and cold in the absence of heat. Someone who never experience any change in temperature would not understand heat and cold. The same goes with light and darkness and with good and evil. Evil is not an equal and opposite force to God that is fighting against Him, but is the absence of good.

What would you say is the absence of Good? Or the presence Evil?
 
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RichardY

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@Pavel Mosko
Infants being confined to eternal hell according to Augustine & Pope Gregory the Great, due to not being Baptised, is off putting. If a Baptism of fire is what is required. I can't see God being absent, even from hell, it doesn't stand.

"In 2007, the Vatican approved a document called, The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized,"

I'd still put Origen in with "The Best of All possible Worlds", if soul building is what God desires? I guess for Origen's sake, he'd better hope it was "The Best of All Possible Worlds" given he cut his own Balls off. Ouch, doesn't really cut it.
 
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Kris Jordan

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Does that mean that Evil, is equivalent to sin?
Or Sin, equivalent to Evil?
What would be the distinction, if any?

Evil is equivalent to the complete absence of any good.
Sin is equivalent to falling short of God's perfect standard of holiness.
 
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devin553344

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Or maybe forcing beings to be good is not good at all.

It has a usefulness in showing an evil creature what good is. Then they may like the good instead of the evil.
 
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So you would say the above 3 are valid? That there is Evil.
Yes. Response one is in regards to the purpose/persistence for evil, response two is in regards to the substance of evil, and response three is synonymous with response 2.

There is a contemporary concept "Syndiffeonesis" by Christopher Langan. That was foreshadowed by Plotinus.

"The expression and/or existence of any difference relation entails a common medium and syntax. Reality is a relation, and every relation is a syndiffeonic relation exhibiting syndiffeonesis or “difference-in-sameness”. Therefore, reality is a syndiffeonic relation. Syndiffeonesis implies that any assertion to the effect that two things are different implies that they are reductively the same; if their difference is real, then they both reduce to a common reality and are to that extent similar. Syndiffeonesis, the most general of all reductive principles, forms the basis of a new view of the relational structure of reality.."
Sounds like you took one semester of philosophy. I would recommend reading the Encyclopedia on Christian Apologetics. It very clearly answers all your questions regarding evil.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Infants being confined to eternal hell according to Augustine & Pope Gregory the Great, due to not being Baptised, is off putting. If a Baptism of fire is what is required. I can't see God being absent, even from hell, it doesn't stand.

Yes and that is why I prefer Ancestral Sin over Original Sin. That is also why Catholics eventually invented Limbo.
 
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@RichardY , Here is an excerpt from a research paper I wrote about the topic while in seminary. This is very detailed. But I ask that you read it very closely. Hopefully it will help untangle this mess.



THE PROBLEM OF EVIL

What is "The Problem of Evil"? The problem of evil is not just merely that evil exists. Instead, it is the compatibility between both God and evil that drives the conundrum. Many theologians such as Augustine of Hippo, Thomas Aquinas, and C.S. Lewis have had variations to the problem of evil. However, stated more simply, "If God is able (omnipotent), He could stop evil. If God is willing (omnibenevolent), He will desire to stop evil. Furthermore, if God is omniscient, He would have been aware that evil would exist and could have prevented it. Thus, if God is both willing and able to stop and prevent evil, why does evil exist? (Keeft and Tacelli 1994, 128). Removal of one aspect seems to solve the issue. Accepting evil and denying God leaves atheism. Pantheism is the product of accepting God and denying evil. Theism, more specifically monotheism, which is centered on an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, are uniquely left struggling to reconcile the compatibility with the all-powerful and evil. The Bible does not remain silent on this issue. Examples may be found in Job, Habakkuk (Hab. 1:2-4), Ecclesiastes (Eccl. 4:1-3), and Psalms (Pss. 10; 22;83). Many attempts to address the issue seem to require a reduction or removal of least one of God's qualities making it "perhaps the most severe of all the intellectual problems facing theism" (Erickson 1998, 386). Examples include the removal of God’s omnipotence (Finitism), modification of God’s omnibenevolence (determinism), or denial of evil's existence (pantheism) (Erickson 1998, 386-394). To address the issue, there must first be an understanding of what evil is and where it originates.

WHAT IS EVIL?

If God is omnibenevolent, evil cannot be within Him, nor can it be emanated or created by Him. As the supremely sovereign creator, what then is "evil"? The skeptic will argue that if God is the creator of everything in existence and all things were created through Him (Gen. 1:1; John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Rev. 4:11) and evil is something that exists, God must have created evil too. After all, it is written, “…I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things” (Isa. 45:6-7). It seems as though that scripture confirms the skeptic’s claim. Furthermore, denying either God or evil leads to dualism or pantheism.

Thomas Aquinas responds the Summa Theologica, on question XLVIII. Aquinas proposes that "evil" is not a substance but absence or corruption of substance. More specifically, Aquinas states that "evil is signified as the absence of good." It is not enough to say that evil is merely an "absence." Instead, it is a privation or absence of something that should be present. This definition by no means implies that evil does not exist, or we fall into a pantheistic conclusion. Rather, as Norman Geisler explains, "Evil is a real lack, privation, or corruption of a good thing. That is, evil does not exist in itself: evil exists only in a thing or substance – and all things God made are good" (Geisler 2011, 18). Therefore, God is the creator of everything in existence. However, since evil is not a thing but a privation of good, God did not create evil. Instead, good must exist to make evil possible.

Furthermore, by comparing evil to moth holes, Geisler concludes that nothing can be entirely evil. Moth holes can corrupt a sweater, but a wholly moth-eater garment is just a hangar in the closet (Geisler 2011, 19). Satan, who by his nature, is utterly evil in a moral sense (John 8:44) is still good in a metaphysical sense because Lucifer was an angel of God. Morally, it is possible for a mere human to be utterly depraved, yet metaphysically still be good in that they are still image bearers of God.

WHERE DID EVIL COME?

The problem associated with the origin of evil stems from God's perfect nature. The skeptic would argue that if God is a perfect being, it would be impossible for Him to create anything with imperfections. Because human beings are imperfect creatures who cause evil, no such God exists. After all, it is also written: "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" (Matt. 7:18). Citing the moral argument, I would immediately respond to the skeptic is that to admit evil's existence is to imply an objective moral law exists. If such a law exists, there must be an objective moral lawgiver who is otherwise known as God (Craig 2008, 25). This argument in itself should be enough to de-fang the skeptical position. However, it fails to address the issue for the theist. Thomas Aquinas has more to say about the issue.

Again in the Summa Theologica, Thomas Aquinas responds in question XLIX titled "The Cause of Evil" by incorporating "free will" into the equation. Referencing Matthew 7:18, Aquinas proposes that God, who is a perfect being, cannot be the direct cause of evil and can only create perfect creatures. Free will is one of the perfections that He gave to humans. Free will is a good quality in itself. However, one of the byproducts of free will is the possibility of using it for evil. As a result, God would, therefore, be the cause of making the existence of evil a possibility. This suggestion, of course, does not absolve humanity's responsibility for evil as suggested by determinism. Humans endowed with free will are responsible for the actuality of evil's existence. As a privation of good, evil is the product of using free will to choose separation from God, who is the source of goodness. Thus, it is possible for God's perfect creations to create evil.

WHY DOES EVIL STILL PERSIST?

We now understand that evil is a privation of goodness and that this privation is a product of free will. We also know that God is responsible for making evil a possibility. However, as a result of their abuse of free will, humans are responsible for making the existence of evil reality. Now, we can address the issue of evil's persistence. If God is all powerful and all good, He would have both the capability and desire to stop evil. So why does evil still exist? How do we answer this question without reverting to finitism?

Many theologians seem to suggest that even an omnipotent God has limitations. "By [God's omnipotence] we mean that God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power" (Erickson 1998, 247). There seem to be two types of limitations to God's omnipotence. First, God has natural limitations. He cannot do what is contradictory to His nature. God cannot lie (Titus 1:2), sin (James 1:13), deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:11-13) or force willful obedience (Matt. 23:37). In this case, the omnipotence of God does not mean that He can do anything. God's omnipotence means that He can do anything possible (Geisler 2011, 37). As long as we have free will, God cannot remove evil by forcing us to choose goodness. This coercion would be a contradiction that goes against his nature. C. S. Lewis states, "I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully, ‘All will be saved.' But my reason retorts, ‘Without their will, or with it?' If I say ‘without their will' I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say ‘With their will,’ my reason replies, ‘How if they will not give in?’” (Lewis 2001, 106-7).

Second, God can put limitations on himself by His choosing. The most notable of His self-imposed restrictions can be found in the incarnation. For it is written, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death – even death on a cross!” (Phil. 2:6-8).

In light of these limitations, we can conclude that the destruction of evil would be an action which is contradictory to free will. It is possible for God to destroy evil by destroying free will. However, this will result in a world void of any moral value. It is comparable to a wind-up doll. By pulling the string, the toy robotically says, "I love you." However, this is merely a pre-programmed response which renders any value to be insignificant. Unlike the wind-up doll, when a spouse looks you in the eyes and says, "I love you," the value lay in the fact they are willingly choosing to love. God is love, and it is God's desire that He is loved in return (1 John 4:8). However, one of the self-imposed limitations of God is that by giving humans free will, He cannot force us to return that love freely. C.S. Lewis states, "Merely to over-ride a human will…would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo" (Lewis 1976, 12). Evil cannot be destroyed without the collateral destruction of free will. However, evil will be overcome (Rom. 8:18-21; Rev. 21:1-4) by separating the good from the evil (Matt. 25:31-46; Rev. 20:11-15) and that this separation will be based on the individual's choosing (Matt. 23:37; 2 Thess. 1:7-9).
 
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Problem of Evil Continued:

DOES EVIL HAVE A PURPOSE?

If God is omnibenevolent, He would have a good purpose for everything (Rom. 8:28). However, as described in the introduction, what good purpose can be found when a father is watching helplessly as a terminal illness takes the life of his young child? Can we conclude that because there seems to be purposeless suffering in the world that God cannot be all good? I would first state that just because we, as limited, finite beings, cannot fathom a purpose for some evil, does not mean none exists. It does not prove God to be malevolent. Instead, it demonstrates our ignorance. Seemingly purposeless evil has been a topic that I have been working to address since early 2014 when my wife was killed as a result of a seemingly purposeless evil. Since then, I have found several possibilities to reconcile this issue, and Erickson has outlined many of them. First, suffering as a direct result of divine retribution, such as that mentioned in Isa. 45:6-7, is not evil at all. Instead, it is a divine judgment that God uses to correct much like a parent disciplining a child (Heb. 12:6). Second, evil can be a byproduct of good. We see this in nature through food chains. It is good for a lion to eat a zebra for its survival. However, it is not necessarily good from a zebra’s perspective (Erickson 1998, 395). Third, God can redeem evil for good purposes. The story of Joseph is an example of such redemption (Gen 50:20).

Lastly, evil has the purpose of testing disinterested faith. Gustavo Gutiérrez, in his book On Job: God-Talk and the Suffering of the Innocent, describes disinterested faith as “[believing] in God without looking for rewards and fearing punishments” (Gutiérrez 1987, loc. 271). Job's situation was a test of disinterested faith. Gutiérrez explains, “It is impossible for the satan to deny that Job is a good and devout man. What he questions is rather the disinterestedness of Job’s service of God, his lack of concern for a reward. The satan objects not to Job's works but their motivation" (Gutiérrez 1987, loc. 318).

I find this concept of disinterested faith most promising. As stated in the wind-up doll analogy, free will is a critical requirement for a meaningful relationship with God to be possible. However, taking it further, let us say we had the freedom to choose to love someone perfect and without flaw. With nothing preventing us from doing so, loving that person would be inevitable. Not to say that their love would have no meaning. The love shared between the triune God is without flaw, and yet it is meaningful. However, seemingly unavoidable. The same holds for our love for God. Even with free will, if nothing exists to prevent humanity from loving God, there is no choice!

The skeptic may argue that if God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, he would have foreseen the existence of evil and would have the desire and capability of preventing it. The skeptic will conclude that because God seemingly failed to anticipate or avoid the existence of evil proves that no such God exists. My response to the argument is simple. In regards to good and evil, free will is merely the ability to make decisions. However, Evil exists to make a choice possible. Therefore, a world void of evil would be a world void of any moral choices. Thus, rendering it inferior.

mic drop.png


BIBLIOGRAPHY

Aquinas, Thomas. n.d. Summa Theologica. Trans. Fathers of the English Dominican Province. London: Burns Oates & Washbourne

Craig, William. 2008. God Is Not Dead Yet: How Current Philosophers Argue for His Existence. Christianity Today 52, no. 7 (July): 25.

Erickson, Millard J. 1998. Christian theology. 2d ed. Grand Rapids: Baker.

Geisler, Norman. 2011. If God, Why Evil?: A New Way to Think about the Question. Minneapolis: Bethany House.

Gutiérrez, Gustavo. 1987. On Job: God-talk and the Suffering of the Innocent. Maryknoll: Orbis Books. Kindle e-book

Kreeft, Peter, and Ronald K. Tacelli. 1994. Handbook of Christian Apologetics: Hundreds of Answers to Crucial Questions. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press.

Lewis, C. S. and Wayland Moore. 1976. The Screwtape Letters. Special Illustrated ed. Chicago: Lord and King Associates.

Lewis, C. S. 2001. The Problem of Pain. San Francisco: Harper San Francisco.

Menn, Stephen. 2002. Descartes and Augustine. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
 
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Evil is equivalent to the complete absence of any good.
Sin is equivalent to falling short of God's perfect standard of holiness.
I love your avatar picture. I just want to give you a hug.
 
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1) A perfectly good God, would not allow for any ultimate Evil.
2) Man as separate from God, came to know Evil. But is saved through Jesus Christ.
3) Pure Evil as deprivation, does not exist, and that's kind of the point.
4) Possible ways of dealing with No Evil: Gnosticism(Knowledge). Voluntarism(Will as paramount). Self-annihilation.

Curious what people's thoughts are on Evil. Personally I think Evil is a kind of deprivation.

Theodicy - Wikipedia
Evil is a judgment call people make about actions we find extremely bad. It only exists in the context of human thought; get rid of human thought and you get rid of evil.
 
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