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The prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by TheBear, Jan 28, 2002.

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  1. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
    +1
    Fun? I dunno about that dude :)

    I understand your point. It does not seem fair that the accused terrorists should be denied "prisoners rights"- right to counsel, trial by their peers, not being shackled, etc..

    However, you are dealing not with criminals but with a very dangerous international terrorists organization. They will do whatever is necessary to destroy everything we hold dear. If they had the opportunity to get hold of nuclear weapons- THEY WILL USE IT TO WIPE the US off the face of the earth. How do you deal with such a threat?

    I think we have to be clear about "The eye for an eye" approach to justice. When Jesus said, the new rule is "to love your enemies, turn the other cheek etc.." I do not think he meant that to apply to the justice system. What then? Whenever a policeman sees someone raping a girl, he then pulls out his Gideon Bible and start praying ???

    What you are saying is quite right about the uncontrolled power of the US. That is definately a cause of concern (not least for those Christians who subscribe to the One World Govt-Satan conspiracy theory). ...the fear is who's next? Considering the amount of uproar about suspected terrorists, I *doubt* that your aunty's sewing circle will be soon be held in detention by the authorities.

    Yes, the US foreign policy has been shady in the past. Name me one big power nation who's record is clean on the matter? Russia ? China? Britain? All have made big sins. IMHO, America has done some mistakes but they weren't so bad- begging my pardon to my Latin American friends.

    However, I don't think supporting an uprising against Fidel Castro is -shady. The war in Vietnam to support a corrupt semi-Christian govt against a Communist neighbor was also tragic. However, I don't see American refugees swimming across to Cuba or Vietnam.

    Anyhow, this is an interesting discussion. I hope that everyone keeps it civil and does not resort to name calling.

    Ciao,

    YM


     
  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +9
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    Married
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    Hey strathyboy,
    This appears to be headed for a dead end. It was a complete waste of time. I fail to see the connection between this subject and prophecy. Time to move on. No hard feelings. Ta Ta .
     
  3. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    +1,732
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    I'll stick around. After all, I started this thread. :D
     
  4. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    +1,732
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    Camp X-Ray or Club Med?
    Washington Times | 1/30/02 | Debra Saunders


    After spending months in frigid Afghanistan caves subsisting on Allah knows what, the 158 detainees the
    United States is holding in tropical Guantanamo Bay must think they've died and gone to heaven.
    Well, heaven without the 72 virgins.
    The detainees should look at the balmy Camp X-Ray — replete with running water, three square meals a day and modern medical care — as a sort of Taliban version of Club Med. Call it Club Gitmo.
    Yet, some Americans and Brits have been hollering about the U.S. treatment of these tough guys. British newspaper headlines have screamed about U.S. "Torture" and "Monstrous Inhumanity," while stories say prisoners are treated "like wild beasts" in "cages." Amnesty International issued a press release accusing the United States of "keeping prisoners incommunicado, (using) sensory deprivation, the use of unnecessary restraint and the humiliation of people through tactics such as shaving them ... in an effort to 'break' the spirit of individuals ahead of interrogation."
    It should be noted that much of the uproar is over photographs of the detainees taken as they were being transported from airplanes to their cells. The military wisely shackles prisoners during transport: That's when it's easiest for violent people to hurt others.
    Also, a British Foreign Ministry team, which spent three days at Club Gitmo, reported that three British citizens being held there had "no complaints about their treatment."
    As The Washington Post reported, Foreign Office Parliamentary Secretary Ben Bradshaw also explained that there were "no gags, no goggles, no earmuffs and no shackles while [the prisoners] are in their cells."
    Still, some people just have to bash the United States. And they apparently don't care if the criticism makes them look clueless as to what really is inhumane. Take the sensory deprivation charge. Does Amnesty International think wearing a hood on an airplane is sensory deprivation, instead of a security measure? Isn't the Taliban code all about sensory deprivation?
    As for the "unnecessary restraint," one detainee has announced he wants to kill an American before he leaves Cuba and another detainee bit a guard, according to Pentagon spokesman Capt. Riccoh Player. So make that "necessary restraint."
    I was embarrassed by some of the press corps' comments during last Tuesday's Pentagon briefing. Talk about clueless. First, there's the reporter who likened living in the tropics without air conditioning to "torture."
    Then there's the reporter who asked Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld if American Taliban John Walker will be treated the same as the detainees. "Will he be put in an 8-by-8-foot cell that has no walls but only a roof?" was the follow-up question.
    I would guess that's one journalist who has never been to a prison.
    "In an 8-by-8-foot space, [on some ships] we would cram half a dozen sailors," was one U.S. official's reaction.
    Then there's the status of the detainees. Some Brits and Amnesty International want them to be officially classified as POWs. The detainee status, however, gives the U.S. military the leeway to interrogate these former operatives about any future terrorist attacks.
    White House spokesman Ken Lisaius rightly noted of the Club Gitmo guests that, "for the most part, they're members of al Qaeda, and if they were free, they'd engage in murder once again."
    You could understand the outrage if the U.S. military were torturing or otherwise mistreating the detainees. Instead, Amnesty International and its comrades are outraged that the military is treating al Qaeda captives like prisoners. Oh, the horror.
    You get the feeling that if Rummy booked these tough guys into a Motel 6, they would complain there's no room service.
     
  5. marmaladePRO

    marmaladePRO Active Member

    835
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    isn't room service a God given right, just a second i'll check the bible... :D
     
  6. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
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    I think the situation would be solved if the US allowed the prisoners to have all the freedom they want - including razor blades for shaving of COURSE - in their cells. Keep them there without any survelliance in their cells- show to the outside world via the media how nicely kept they are.

    Then get the Amnesty and all the other complainers to see the terrorist.

    However, I would first inform the terrorists that important CIA and MOSSAD agents were coming by to say hello.

    Then close the door, after the complainers go in. In a 15min, problem all solved.

    Just kidding!

    :)

     
  7. strathyboy

    strathyboy Active Member

    761
    +1
    Mr. thunder, what does this thread not having anything to do with prophecy have to do with anything? It has to do with current affairs, so it seems appropriate that the thread would be here.

    And to mr. thebear, nice job. I'm pretty much sold. It was a pleasure working with you, and hopefully we can disagree on something again sometime. :)
    Although, if I were a conspiracy theorist, it would be easy enough to move the prisoners into nice places when anyone visits, or to threaten them with torture or worse if they tell any of those visitors what things were really like. But I will take the word of the Brits. I generally trust them over the US in a matter such as this (no offence).

    I do maintain my cynicism about the potential future actions of the US. But I'm sure we'll argue about that when the time comes.
     
  8. faust

    faust New Member

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    i would like to tke this oppertunity to say that if u r seiorous about stopping the war on terrorism then how about any americans reading stop giving ur money to irish american fundraisers u r only funding the ira s campaign to main and bomb britian , there will never be a stop to war no matter what religion u r we can only slow down the process until we can break through the evoloution barrier.
     
  9. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

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    strathyboy,

    I'm glad we can come to an agreement on something. :) And, I have to add that no one needs to step foot out of the U.S. to get different and opposing views on the same issues. There are plenty of U.S. based publications that dedicate themselves to resist and oppose, and expose anything that comes out of Washington. There are a pleathera of special interest groups who can be counted on to sound-off, on whatever political issue is on the table. If there is a conservative in the White House, there are plenty of liberal media and publications to pick it apart. If there is a liberal in the White House, almost the same numbers, (well, getting there), of conservatives are chomping at the bit to deride those policies.

    CNN is loosing ground these days, with the expansion of the internet, and other networks who are not affraid to be politicaly INcorrect.

    Of course, like many Americans, I also check news stories from around the world to get an idea of foriegn perspectives. I even go to www.arabia.com to see what kind of spin......(er... I mean perspective), they have on things.

    The American people are much less one-dimensional on domestic and foriegn policies than people from other countries think.

    John
     
  10. marmaladePRO

    marmaladePRO Active Member

    835
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    This is and was an amazing thread, my hats off to everyone who was able to discuss and debate while coming through with peace and repsect... i look forward to reading it all again, and reinforcing what this thread has informed me about world events!
     
  11. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

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    marmaladePRO,


    In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2)

    That's about the best room service anyone could hope for. :D

    John
     
  12. marmaladePRO

    marmaladePRO Active Member

    835
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    yes bear yes....
    you put a real grin on my face Prasie God... your script is very timely! :)
    there was a song about a "big big house, with lots and lots of rooms..." and i really appreciate your input! thanks...
     
  13. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
    +1
    Altho i havent read this whole argument i have read a page or two. It seems like a lot of rash and harsh thinking has gone into this. I admit i wanted blood when all this happned. Isnt that what everyone wanted?

    But it would be wrong to blindly think that. Why? You are tought to accept the suffering and be tolorant of those that are ignorant.

    Does that mean sit back and do nothing? No, that means follow the laws of man (in some of our cases) the USA laws, and take them befor the courts. Let them be judged fairly. (Yes i am aware that our Gov. at times can be corupt; but why should we as civilians become curupt because of the actions of someone else.)

    As far a POW and terrorist. We declared war. all people captive by the USA are then legeally POW as they were detained under the decleration of war. They have rights, not that alot of us dont think they should have them or what ever nonetheless. America is supposed to be a JUST country. We have to follow our own rules even in times of pain. We must set an example within the eyes of the law.

    order of the laws we all know. we should not bend or distort them from what they were ment to do.

    1) Gods Law
    2) Mans Law


    In subjects like this feelings and pride take control. You must step away and detach yourself from the situation. My heart goes out to all those that are missing/dead/injured/living but that does not mean swift revenge. Maby if we all lived under the OT it would be acceptable, but we dont. We live by the foundation of the OT and the house built by NT.

    Christianty is the belief in Jesus Christ and in that we must abide by the rules set forth therein. (did that make sense? sounds weird to me when i say it in my head)
     
  14. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

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    Optimus_P,

    First of all, welcome to the forum. :)


    I guess the main thing, is for people to be able to seperate the propper attitudes of individual Christians, from the roll of the government. When you carefully read the entire thread, you will see some very good and logical points, that do not all resort to emotional fever.
    As far as the prisoner's status is concerned, wether it's pow or detainee, the US has no rights to treat them like animals. And there is no credible evidence to show such treatment. As a matter of fact, a recent visit by a British deligation proves the opposite. Also, the fact that the US is classifying them as detainees, makes a power statement. Everything's in the open regarding the Geneva Convention's definition of a pow. To claim that the US is blatantly disregarding the rules under the Geneva Convention, in front of the American people, the Congress, the Senate, the Media, and the international community, and trying to deny it, is akin to someone, while in a courtroom, full of witnesses, jury and a judge, beating someone repeatedly in the head with their fist, while at the same time claiming, "I never touched him". Come on!

    John
     
  15. strathyboy

    strathyboy Active Member

    761
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    Bush recently made a statement that he would guarantee all rights in the Geneva convention to the detainees in Guantanamo, even though he refused to recognize them as POW's.
    I still find it curious that Bush won't give them the rights of POW's. If you're going to officially guarantee them all the rights given in the Geneva convention for POW's, why not simply call them POW's and be done with it?

    The US has, in the past, broken parts of the Geneva convention, and severely bent others, although most of that never came to the attention of the American people. (After all, why should you care what happens in Vietnam, El Salvador, Guatemala, etc.) :)
     
  16. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
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    Like i had said earlier. American is not always play by the books. Altho we should (as should any country) but we do ALOT of blackbag ops. I am sure alot of us would not aprove of it and some of us would.
     
  17. BK_30

    BK_30 secret agent:licensed to witness

    123
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    For the most part I liked this thread though I did get hot under the collar a couple of times at things that Strathyboy said. One thing that still bothers me is his continual mention of Veitnam. My question for you Strathy is where you there? Both my Unlce and my Dad where. I grew up with the damage that that "police Action" ( to be PC) did to them. Did you see your buddies Tortured in every sense of the word like they did? Did you come home to the termoil and refulsion that they did? Do you suffer from memories and find it difficult to sleep on rainy nights like they do? Did any of this stop them from being Christian men when they got home? no. They still helped every Vietnamese family who moved into our neighborhood adjust and meet everyone else. Right or wrong we were asked by the south veitnamese army to come and help them. We refused several times. And even when we did go as my Uncle put it "We were sent to war with one hand tied behind our backs and told to defend ourselves" However I will say I think America learned her lesson from that conflict and it is shown in how we are in the phillipines helping their Army fight their Terrorist not US doing it for them.

    Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.
     
  18. strathyboy

    strathyboy Active Member

    761
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    I have the utmost respect for most soldiers and members of the military, and that doesn't change when it comes to Vietnam. I say most because there is one documented case to my knowledge of soldiers slaughtering the inhabitants of a small village, and then burning the village. However, the fact that your relatives came out as well as they did is commendable. I blame the US government wholly for putting them and other soldiers like them into a situation "with one arm tied behind their backs", and completely unprepared for what they would face. I have read several books, written by both Americans and Vietnamese (I highly recommend The Sorrow of War by Bao Ninh), and they all describe the mental and emotional effects of Vietnam.
    My beef when it comes to Vietnam is with the US government. The US put a corrupt government into power in South Vietnam, and then ignored agreed upon arrangements for an election on reunification with North Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh's forces in the North had no problem convincing the South Vietnamese peasants of the advantages of communism when all the peasants saw was a corrupt government unwaveringly supported by the US, the "leader of the free world."
     
  19. BK_30

    BK_30 secret agent:licensed to witness

    123
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    hey strathyboy we all saw the movie...but in every war there are atrousity's, and many of the American Citizens protested the war so you saying earlier that we blindly follow our government is (as history shows) not accurate
     
  20. strathyboy

    strathyboy Active Member

    761
    +1
    "hey strathyboy we all saw the movie...but in every war there are atrousity's, and many of the American Citizens protested the war so you saying earlier that we blindly follow our government is (as history shows) not accurate "

    Many Americans did protest the war, but not until they saw Americans dying in it. Vietnam was revolutionary for that. People could watch the evening news and see the dead bodies of American soldiers, which tends to immediately turn Americans off of the idea of a war. A similar thing happened in Somalia. When Americans died and pictures were put in magazines about it, it was a matter of days before American soldiers were pulled out.

    When I talk of Americans "blindly following thier government", I speak of responses like "the US government wouldn't do something like that" when I bring up the black ops the US was involved in, such as Operation Mongoose. Even when it comes to Vietnam, Americans ONLY protested the fact that AMERICAN troops died. That was all. The Americans still believed that the North Vietnamese started the War, the communism was the tool of the devil, and that America was going in to save the good and righteous South Vietnam and defend the free world from the evils of communism. Americans still get touchy when I suggest their government might have been part of any wrongdoing, even when that wrongdoing is proven.
     
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