The prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.

[strathyboy]

How much can Bush justify in his "war on terrorism"? It can be argued that he was justified in doing what he has done so far. You seemed to believe that lists of American dead in the WTC attacks were enough justification for everything so far. But when does it stop? When every single terrorist has been caught? How many governments will Bush have to topple to do that?

I believe that the WTC attacks were meant to drive a wedge between the US and the middle east, by showing how weak the US was perhaps. In any case, Bush is risking a bigger gap between the US and the middle east. His actions risk making more nations resent the US than already do.

 

[Yauming]

Sorry,

I misunderstood what you meant by your words-

"I could "almost" care less what other people want or do. If
they wanna worship satan, then go right ahead, no skin off
my rear. If they wanna drink themselves to death, again that is
their buisness."[/B]

I don't understand what you mean, so I won't comment any further.

Anyhow, I agree with what you said about the war and justice stuff. If someone wants to commit the crime/ war- and they are merciless in their approach- they cannot expect that their enemy will hold back. IMHO, no quarter/no mercy should be given to terrorists when they are caught.

This is OT but in over here in Australia, they tend to be very lenient toward murderers and rapists, maximum sentence is 10 years, and that demoralizes the whole public attitude towards crime.

I always wonder whether the Hiroshima anti-nuclear protestors, esp the "new" Greenpeace protestors do not wonder about the aggrressions of the Japanese military, eg Nanking, Chungking, Shanghai, which brought about the a-bombings.

Originally posted by camaro540
If you noticed, I used quotes "almost" ...

But, in the same respect, people can't just go around
wacking other people, just because, and thinking they
can get away with it. War is one thing, but just killing inocent people just because you feel like it is another ball game all together. If a man desides to go break into someones house at night, or day for that matter, and kill them to make a statment, should he be treated the same as the man who made a mistake, lets say he hit someone while driving his car and killed them, and
there was nothing he could do to prevent it?
NOT!!!! (as they say now days)
Patrick

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by strathyboy
How much can Bush justify in his "war on terrorism"? It can be argued that he was justified in doing what he has done so far. You seemed to believe that lists of American dead in the WTC attacks were enough justification for everything so far. But when does it stop? When every single terrorist has been caught? How many governments will Bush have to topple to do that?

I believe that the WTC attacks were meant to drive a wedge between the US and the middle east, by showing how weak the US was perhaps. In any case, Bush is risking a bigger gap between the US and the middle east. His actions risk making more nations resent the US than already do.

Gee strathyboy,
Your head really is in the sand. Are these your views since you've become a christian, or have you always been this misguided?? Practicly the entire world is with the U.S. so far. This is not just a war against terrorism, this is a fight to save civilization itself. Have you ever read the back of your bible?? These are the last days we are living in. But many are still in the dark and don't even realize it. This is not about the dead in WTC, it's much bigger than that. You ask when will it end. READ MY LIPS, "It will not end until the man of lawlessness is revealed and unvails his plan of false peace. You better be very careful, because I get the feeling you would like what he has to offer. I'm glad that all Americans don't think like you, because we would have been wiped out a long time ago. Do you know where our COWARDS and draft dodgers go?? Thats right , they run to Canada.............

 

[ksasnic]

Out of curiosity what is your take on Christianity, are you absolutely positive as to where you will be going? What I mean is I am a Christian who believes in God and well to say the least I do not want to get it wrong so that means to me to hunt out the right from the wrong for me that is, it is the way I am choosing. In the Bible it says in Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

... I am realising just how narrow the path is, my comfort zones have been seriously shaken which is a very good thing as complacency can change everything. Many Christians out there believe in God and the Bible but only in a traditional sense, lets not rock the applecart kind of Christianity, a lets all run round and round chasing our own tails and not worry about anything else as I go to church, I am saved kind of attitude so thats that. Unfortunately as like any relationship you have to keep working at it and that is when the path becomes narrow as we have to put something in instead of always taking from it. Through my search of not wanting to get it wrong and go to hell be it a very real hell or even my own personal hell or even to nothing either way I don't want to go there so I am searching for the right path. I am realising that the path is even narrower than many people think it is and as only 144,000 make it the odds are very highly stacked against me. It all depends on your take of Christianity, but in my search I have found that a lot of our christian beliefs lie in paganism so that means already a breaking of one of the commandments ie the one where we shall have no other gods but God, do not make any graven images etc well with that it also says if you break one commandment then you break them all so for a start we are not doing very well. then there is the sabbath day, which was changed by constantine to move from saturday to sunday; sunday the day set aside for the pagan worship of apollos so there we are now worshipping other gods. If you are catholic there is the goddess worship of Mary and the praying to the dead saints so that is worshipping false idols. Even the communion is dodgy as it is taken from the pagan blood drinking sacrifices of the mystery religion also mithraism and if you notice in the last supper even Jesus says For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." and "For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." so here he is saying he will not drink of it again until the kingdom of God comes so what makes us think we should?
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The commandments are really important especially the fourth as why would it have remember in front of it probably because it will be the first to be forgotten or played down... even the elect will be fooled. Our christmas is pagan too taken from tammuz and also the fact that Jesus was not born on christmas day either as we have the calender all screwed up we tend to read the Bible under our calender system but it wasn't like that then they did things by the lunar calender. And well the list goes on so you can see that the path is very narrow indeed.
now this is just my take on it and I do not want to miss out on the biggest party ever because I was too lazy that I just stopped working at it.
But I know God made me and he also gave me my curious nature so it really doesn't bother me that I get called names so as to strathboys comments that I am paranoid makes no difference either your eyes are opened or they are closed.
anyway time for bed
God Bless one and all

 

[ksasnic]

sorry the last post was in reply to the bear

 

[Louisa]

I don't know much about how the prisoners are being treated but I'm from Australia and there is an Australian prisoner in the Cuba camp.
The news reports here tell that he is one of the most dangerous men - constantly threatening the American guards, saying he will kill any American.
We all need to protected from people from this.
I think he has been brainwashed, that something was lacking from his life that he felt he could only get by joining the Al-Queda. (How do you spell that!!!)
He is not responsible for the twin towers - but he is responsible for spreading hatred and threatening harm.
I feel they should be imprisoned humanely and brought to trial. God will do the final judgement but we have to protect others. He could repent and become a decent member of society but until then, he needs to be locked away for every else's safety.
I'm sure though that there are a lot of ex AlQueda fighters who now feel lost because they feel their team/side/faith has lost.
I pray that the Lord will reach out to them, show them the error of their ways, and show them how a loving team/side/faith acts.

Thanks all.

Louisa

 

[strathyboy]

From RollinThunder:

"Gee strathyboy,
Your head really is in the sand. Are these your views since you've become a christian, or have you always been this misguided?? Practicly the entire world is with the U.S. so far. This is not just a war against terrorism, this is a fight to save civilization itself. Have you ever read the back of your bible?? These are the last days we are living in. But many are still in the dark and don't even realize it. This is not about the dead in WTC, it's much bigger than that. You ask when will it end. READ MY LIPS, "It will not end until the man of lawlessness is revealed and unvails his plan of false peace. You better be very careful, because I get the feeling you would like what he has to offer. I'm glad that all Americans don't think like you, because we would have been wiped out a long time ago. Do you know where our COWARDS and draft dodgers go?? Thats right , they run to Canada............."

Wow. I like the example of Christianity shown here. I state an opinion, and am then told I am a coward, misguided, and I might worship Satan. Last I checked, these are forums for debating, not forums for personal insults. If you don't have a better way to prove your point, then I'll thank you to keep your mouth shut.

I have indeed read the back of my bible, and I am unsure that these are what you would call the "last days". There have been era's of war before, and there have been others who thought that the world would end soon.
It may come as a shock to you, but the US is not full of saints. The US is not an altruistic organization dedicated to saving the world from Satan, and it has shown this many times since it's independence from Britain. What they are doing now may or may not be justified, but I resent being called a terrorist lover because I won't condemn people who may or may not have had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks to torture and death.
In short, please disprove my point of view, and do not attack me.

 

[TheBear]

I think a lot of Christians blur the lines between individual emotions and the role of the government. And there is no government which is without questionable policies. If you want, strathyboy, I've got some real good dirt on Canada, and some of it's questionable policies. You are probably aware of a few I might mention. But, what would be the point of that?
The main point I'm trying to convey is that we need to seperate the individual Christian from the protective role of the government......in any country.

I entertain theories just so far, but I eventualy need to see the hard evidence and proof. And, this idea that the prisoners at Camp X-Ray are being treated like animals, needs to be proved or thrown out. And, what realy amazes me is how willing and ready some Christians are, to adapt and cling dearly to such ideas. As rollinTHUNDER alluded to, for some Christians, this goes beyond Biblical beliefs, this goes to blind, party-line, political preference.

John

 

[strathyboy]

You're correct, Canada has had some shady political moments. But I am as big a critic of my own government as I am of the American one. The US has been involved in much grander and nastier political policies simply because of the power it possesses.

"And, what realy amazes me is how willing and ready some Christians are, to adapt and cling dearly to such ideas. As rollinTHUNDER alluded to, for some Christians, this goes beyond Biblical beliefs, this goes to blind, party-line, political preference. "

I agree, but this was my reason for bringing up possible US government misdeeds in the first place. Blindly believing that one's government is doing the right thing all the time is stupid, especially in light of past actions by that government (note that this applies to every nation, not just the US).

 

[TheBear]

Last question tonight, strathyboy, then I have to get to bed.

Are you more inclined to believe that the prisoners are being treated fairly, or inhumanely?

John

 

[strathyboy]

Although I would need to see proof before being sure on this, I lean towards suspecting that the prisoners are being treated inhumanely, simply because of the somewhat odd actions of the US in this matter.

1. Failure to grant Prisoner of War status. If you're going to treat them humanely anyway, then why not make everybody happy and allow them official status that says they will be treated humanely.
2. Taking them to Cuba. Why Cuba? There are many better/more defendable locations that could have been used, especially given the lack of cordial relations between Cuba and the US over the last 40 years. Seriously, do you know why they picked Cuba?
3. The US is angry, and although I expect most soldiers would act in an honourable way, even when fighting those they knew were accomplices in the 9/11 attacks, I believe that there are soldiers who could not be trusted with the "terrorists" (maybe they had a family member die in the WTC, etc.).
4. The past actions of the US government have made me somewhat cynical regarding their motives for doing what they do. In this case, however, I can see no other motive for holding these people than the gathering of information.
5. The lack of an official response to allegations that the "detainees" are being treated poorly. One would think that the US government would show us pictures or something showing that they are being treated well.

But again, none of these are proof of inhuman treatment. They just lead me to suspect.

 

[Yauming]

If you want to see evidence of inhuman treatment you should think about how the 9/11 terrorists treated their hostages onboard the jet liners, or how the Taliban treated women in Afganistan, or the hostages of the Hezbollah in Lebenon.

Cheers,

YM

Originally posted by strathyboy
[BBut again, none of these are proof of inhuman treatment. They just lead me to suspect. [/B]

 

[TheBear]

strathyboy,

Let me first address your listed concerns.

1) Even though the prisoners' status might be questionable by some, their status of 'detainees' does not give the U.S. carte blanche to treat the prisoners inhumanely.

2) Why not Cuba? It's a small chunk of land with about ninety miles of ocean seperating it from the mainland. Accessability is extremely limited and controlable. From a security standpoint, it seems ideal to me.

3) I agree that there may be some isolated cases of abuse by individual soldiers, but that cannot be any different than isolated cases of corrections officers being abusive in civilian prisons. It may happen occasionaly, but it is not the norm.

4) It seems you want it both ways. First, you want the prisoners to be classified as prisoners of war. Now, you basicaly state that there is no justification to imprison these people except to question them. Are you saying that they should be released immediately? Are you saying that they should never have been imprisoned in the first place? Whatever your position is, you've got to be consistent.

5) Your final point is moot. To cynics like yourself, even if the U.S. did produce some photos, you would just turn around and claim that the the photos do not portray what is really going on in Camp X-Ray. So, what's the point? One can never satisfy cynisism. Regardless of what is presented, it will always be undermined by the nay-sayers. And quite frankly, the U.S. has much bigger fish to fry, and could care less about these 'prove it' games.


Now, I've answered your points to a reasonable extent. You will either accept my points and move on, or you will prove my last point about the nay-sayers.


John

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by strathyboy


Wow. I like the example of Christianity shown here. I state an opinion, and am then told I am a coward, misguided, and I might worship Satan. Last I checked, these are forums for debating, not forums for personal insults. If you don't have a better way to prove your point, then I'll thank you to keep your mouth shut.

I have indeed read the back of my bible, and I am unsure that these are what you would call the "last days". There have been era's of war before, and there have been others who thought that the world would end soon.
It may come as a shock to you, but the US is not full of saints. The US is not an altruistic organization dedicated to saving the world from Satan, and it has shown this many times since it's independence from Britain. What they are doing now may or may not be justified, but I resent being called a terrorist lover because I won't condemn people who may or may not have had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks to torture and death.

In short, please disprove my point of view, and do not attack me. [/B]

Hey strathyboy,
Sometimes the truth hurts. I never attacked you, but your ignorant opinions will not go unchecked. How can anyone in their right mind question defending ones country after it has been attacked?? If a brutal thief came to rob your house, would you really lay down and play dead?? Bush never asked for this attack. But he is responsible for defending the U.S. citizens against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. This is not an example of my christianity, or yours, I'm only questioning your leftist opinions.

 

[strathyboy]

Wow. So many people against me. This is gonna be fun.

First, to Yauming:

"If you want to see evidence of inhuman treatment you should think about how the 9/11 terrorists treated their hostages onboard the jet liners, or how the Taliban treated women in Afganistan, or the hostages of the Hezbollah in Lebenon. "

Yes, those are good examples of inhuman treatment. But I don't really agree to this "eye for an eye" approach to justice. Are you actually suggesting that the "detainees" should be tortured, for no better reason than they MIGHT have tortured somebody else?

To TheBear:

You misunderstood my point #4. When I stated that they were being held only for getting information, I was implying that they were not being held for the express purpose of torturing them, or some other nasty purpose.
And as for #5, I think you're completely wrong. I would be quite satisfied by an official statement by Red Cross or some other international organization stating that the detainees were being treated adequately. I would even be satisfied with an American statement that they were being treated well. I base my cynicism in REALITY, not in some lofty ideals about my government.

To mr. thunder:

My ignorant opinions? By all means then, prove my "ignorant opinions" wrong.
It is indeed a shame that the 9/11 attacks happened, but does this now give the US a license to do whatever they please? All their actions so far can be easily justified. But I am worried about what the US will do next, all in the name of protecting the free world from terrorism.
And please explain what you mean by leftist exactly. I'm just curious as to what you think it means.

To all of you:
You constantly ignore the FACT that the foreign policy and actions of the US have been very shady in the past. Most Americans, as you seem to do, just sweep these facts under the carpet. Events such as the Bay of Pigs Invasion and the support of a dictator over a democraticallly elected government, as in Cuba in 1949 and in Vietnam in the 50's and 60's.
With a record like this, it is incredibly naive to believe everything the US says without some proof.
And like I've said MANY times, several other world governments, most notably that of Great Britain and Canada, have questioned the US treatment of the detainees in Guantanamo.

 

[marmaladePRO]

oh my goodness early on in this thread someone mentioned sleep deprivation... now sleep deprivation is what i would need to keep up! great thread fopr readings sake guys and gals... i'm gonna go back and read it all again...

 

[TheBear]

Here is something from United Press International:

WASHINGTON, Jan 21, 2002 (United Press International via COMTEX) By PAMELA HESS

British officials who visited the U.S. prison camp in Guantanamo Bay over the weekend said the prisoners are being treated well, Foreign Office Minister Ben Bradshaw told the House of Commons Monday.

"None complained of any ill treatment, none said they had any medical condition requiring treatment," Bradshaw said.

It looks like while the British press pushes one idea, high ranking British officials are saying something else. Hmmmm. And even to report to the House of Commons with the findings. Look out!!! It looks like a WORLDWIDE conspiracy is starting to develope. Run for the hills!!!

I'll be back with more findings.

John

 

[Crazy4Christ]

Lets take this time in prayer, for the places in the world which are going through pain and despair, Let us thank God for our Priveleges, that we have a roof over our heads and we have him next to us...

 

[TheBear]

Geneva (ICRC) – On 18 January 2002, four delegates of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), including a medical delegate, started visiting the prisoners transferred from Afghanistan and detained by US forces at Guantanamo Bay Naval Station. The delegates will register the prisoners and document the conditions of their arrest, transfer and detention.

Under an agreement with the US authorities, the visits are being conducted in accordance with the ICRC's standard working procedures, which involve talking to the prisoners in private and giving them the opportunity to exchange news with their families by means of Red Cross messages.

These procedures include submitting strictly confidential written reports on the delegates' findings to the detaining authorities. In no circumstances does the ICRC comment publicly on the treatment of detainees or on conditions of detention. The ICRC delegates will discuss their findings directly with the detaining authorities, submit their recommendations to them, and encourage them to take the measures needed to solve any problems of humanitarian concern.

Now, if the U.S. had something to hide, why would they allow British officials and the ICRC to visit, inspect and interview the prisoners?

I'll be back with more.

John

 

[TheBear]

I've been doing some digging in the Hill Times. Lots of extreme measures in response to the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

I'll get back with more details.


John