The prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.

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TheBear

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One more thing. Why is the main focal point these days, centered on the so-called rights of the prisoners? Why is all the pain and suffering and deaths of so many family members and friends, as the result of these murderer's actions, pushed to the back burner in the light of political correctness? Have we forgoten already, what this whole ordeal is all about? Go to the bereaved familys in New York City, and all the other living survivors of 9/11, and tell them about the 'rights' of these thugs. I wonder how that would go over.

John
 
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Blynn

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originally posted by The Bear

One more thing. Why is the main focal point these days, centered on the so-called rights of the prisoners?


I would like to know the answer to this too.

I personally believe that the information we get from these prisoners is vital to safe guarding our country from future attacks. Our government is issuing new terror alerts for nuclear power plants. Obviously they are getting some information.


I have thought about this a lot, but is it possible that our government is using some type of truth serum and not using torture??? (Maybe I watch too many movies, but I think it could be possible).

God Bless,
Roberta
 
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strathyboy

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"Show me exactly where terrorists are qualified to be prisoners of war. "

I showed you EXACTLY how EVERY member of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban who was captured in Afghanistan qualified for status as a POW. Is there someone among the detainees who is not a member of one of these two groups?

"And your attempts to fit the terrorists into the prisoner of war status, are vague and sketchy, at best. "

Again, is that the best you can do? I've done all the research and shown you LINE BY LINE how the members of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban should be applicable for Prisoner of War status. You have blatantly failed to justify the actions of your government.

I will accept the situation if a neutral 3rd party, such as the red cross, goes to Guantanamo and states that the prisoners are being treated according to the Geneva Convention, regardless of whether or not Dubbya decides to call them POW's.
Again, this opinion is not simply my own. A very large chunk of the world, basically everybody but Americans, has questions as to why the US would ignore the Geneva Convention. The US has yet to give a reasonable answer.

"Go to the bereaved familys in New York City, and all the other living survivors of 9/11, and tell them about the 'rights' of these thugs. I wonder how that would go over. "

I agree it was a very tragic event. Nobody is going to deny that. However, I must point out that everybody who can be proven to have been involved in the attacks is DEAD. Only Bin Laden (who has more or less been proven to be responsible) is still at large, and through him we have the premise that Al-Qaeda was involved.
If we granted all of the victims in these circumstances exactly what they wanted then every Nazi would have been executed after WW2 by the Jews, everyone involved in the Manhattan project would have been executed by the Japanese, etc.

The entire point of my argument is to make people question things, and not simply blindly believe what is told to them on CNN. The US government has lied to it's people before and has had many shady foreign policies. I'm not saying that they are trying to deceive anybody in this situation, but I think we should examine every detail.
 
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TheBear

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I'm done with you, leftistboy.

When you resort to broad-brushed accusations and personal attacks on the President, all bets are off. When you realize that it is more than one man and one country supporting the actions of the US, maybe we can have some meaningfull dialog. You have to look at the root of why you feel so strongly about the rights of the murderers, 'until proven otherwise'. As for me, I'm siding with the rights of innocent civilians killed and mamed for life, leaving scores of others with such emotional and mental damage and scars, no one can even imagine their pain, suffering and anguish. And I'm siding with any efforts to prevent such incidents in the future.

Go right ahead, leftistboy, champion the cause for the rights of these scum. You and I have nothing further to discuss.

John
 
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strathyboy

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Fine. I guess the argument's over. I guess you won because you called me leftistboy. (What that means, I have no idea). But in the future please do not read words into other people's mouths, and don't stoop to insults to win arguments.

"When you resort to broad-brushed accusations and personal attacks on the President, all bets are off. "

Uh.....is this because I called him Dubbya?

I'm afraid that you, as with other Americans have fallen into this trap where people are either with you or a terrorist. There can be no neutral territory.
 
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camaro540

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I'm afraid that you, as with other Americans have fallen into this trap where people are either with you or a terrorist. There can be no neutral territory.

I could "almost" care less what other people want or do. If
they wanna worship satan, then go right ahead, no skin off
my rear. If they wanna drink themselves to death, again that is
their buisness. But when someone or group of people take it
upon themselves to decide what should happen to another
person or people, then there is where the line is drawn.
 
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TheBear

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I used to think like that. But then after I thinking about Cain's reply, "Am I my brother's keeper?" I'm not too sure now.

Cheers,

YM

PS.
Yes, I know the context behind Cain, ie his murder of his brother. But still...

Originally posted by camaro540
I could "almost" care less what other people want or do. If
they wanna worship satan, then go right ahead, no skin off
my rear. If they wanna drink themselves to death, again that is
their buisness.[/B]
 
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camaro540

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If you noticed, I used quotes "almost" ... :)

Of course I care for others, but my point was, I don't
have control over them, they have free will as the rest of
us do.

But, in the same respect, people can't just go around
wacking other people, just because, and thinking they
can get away with it.

War is one thing, but just killing inocent people just because
you feel like it is another ball game all together.

Lets look at it another way.

If a man desides to go break into someones house at night,
or day for that matter, and kill them to make a statment, should
he be treated the same as the man who made a mistake, lets
say he hit someone while driving his car and killed them, and
there was nothing he could do to prevent it?

NOT!!!! (as they say now days)

Patrick
 
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My personal view is that the prisoners in Cuba are in effect prisoners of war and should be treated like such, they personally didn't blow up the twin towers so why should they be treated like animals. We would be the first to complain if we were denied our geneva convention rights during ww2. War is hell on all parties there are no winners in war, lets just accept that Bush has an alternative agenda and it doesn't include us to a certain extent we can and will be sacrificed if it helps his plans to become his reality.

There are too many descrepancies in his governments take on the twin towers...one fact that scares me is that about a year and a half ago body bags in excess of the normal quota were being made up for the US government now I think I understand why !!!!

History is repeating itself, I heard that Bush wants people to volunteer to join a home defence group all that came to mind then was the brown shirts hitler youth!

It seems to me terrorism can happen in any other country and is alright but when America is threatened well stand back and everyone else must jump and bow down to her might...hey just remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki.. here we go again
anyway that is just my take on it so don't jump down my throat while I was writing this I felt the Lord say to me Jeremiah 4:18-19 so I have now looked it up and well the rest is pretty apt too.

May God Bless and protect us all until he comes again.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by strathyboy


I'm afraid that you, as with other Americans have fallen into this trap where people are either with you or a terrorist. There can be no neutral territory.

I was an American for 30 years, but that got old. Now I'm a Christian, and have been for the last 11 years. For the Americans, Gods judgment is coming. Same for the Canadians. This is what happens to people that refuse to come out of the world. Let it go. Be holy, set apart from this world, and ready to serve Him when He calls. If you are a Christian, this world is no longer your home. You are a citizen of heaven.

Not all Americans think alike, and they all haven't fallen into this trap you talk about. It's a thankless job, trying to protect the world from a radical Muslim extremist takeover, but at least the U.S. is willing to fight. The Canadians, like yourself, should have no room to talk. You should open your eyes, and be thankful that you have your freedom, but don't be foolish enough to think this freedom was free. Thousands of Americans have given their lives for this freedom you enjoy. Go ahead Canada, keep on letting the U.S. fight your battles for you. But don't complain when your freedom no longer exists.
 
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TheBear

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My thoughts exactly, rollinTHUNDER.

A lot of people don't realize that freedom has a price. Liberties are taken for granted by some. And, anything done to defend those liberties, that is not pretty, is looked upon as mean-spirited bullying by these crybabies. They need to get their heads out of the sand, and start looking head-on at the everyday threats to our freedoms. They need to emerge from their cacooned comfort zone and get a little taste of the stark reality of the world.


John
 
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TheBear

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ksasnic,

Are the prisoners at Camp X-Ray being treated like animals? If so, please give the details and the source of your information.

And just what is this conspiracy and 'alternative agenda' that Bush is involved in? Again, please give the details and credible sources.

You say, "...hey just remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki..". I say, don't forget Pearl Harbor and the fact that it was an open declared war on the US. Don't blur the facts to make your point.

ksasnic, I think your paranoia and conspiracy theories blind you to the facts of reality.


John
 
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strathyboy

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I'm curious too, as to whether or not the prisoners in Guantanamo are being treated well. I've heard stories that they're treated better than is required, but other stories say that they are being treated very horribly.

Don't even bother bringing stuff like Hiroshima and Nagasaki into this, since it was a completely different and complex situation. (And it can be argued more than one way.)

"ksasnic, I think your paranoia and conspiracy theories blind you to the facts of reality. "

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I believe that it is our duty as citizens of our nations to question the actions of the government and to hold them to a certain moral standard. Thus to simply accept everything you are told by a government is stupid and naive. I'm not saying the US government has done anything deceptive in this whole "war on terrorism" thing, but the US government has deceived people before and engaged in very questionable activities (Watergate, Iran Contra, Vietnam, Operation Mongoose, Vietnam, etc.).
 
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I did also say that it was my opinion. anyway the truth is out there if you want to see it, just look it up. There is a war on terrorism in Bushes own words a war... so if this is so then why are the prisoners being held not treated as such under the geneva convention.
Maybe I do feel as if there is more to it than what politicians are telling me to think ! some points that make me wonder are. when Bush was told of those horrible events why didn't he bat an eyelid not one glimmer of shock, now I know he was in a classroom at the time but hey someone would show some form of shock even a split seconds worth if they were being told for the first time but not Bush it was like he was expecting it. There are a few other events that make me wonder too The papers say that temperatures got up to 800degrees and that was what melted the steel supports in the towers which helped them to collapse, unfortunately it takes a lot more than 800 degrees to melt steel, by some sources it takes 2800 degrees to melt so what happened then ? And why did one demolition expert first say it looked like a controlled demolition and then shortly after retracts it ? Here is the link to the article by an expert in demolition
http://www.abqjournal.com/aqvan09-11-01.htm
And according to an article I read this ex naval officer Delmart Edward "Mike" Vreeland knew in advance about the 911 attack and is now holed up in canada awaiting trial on some jumped up charges, he is fighting extradition to usa where lets face it he will be silenced once and for all if you know what i mean.
here is part of the article
The position of the United States government, as represented by Crown Solicitors in Toronto, is that all of this is nonsense. Vreeland, says the
Navy, was discharged as a Seaman after a few months of service for unsatisfactory performance in 1986. He has never had anything to do with
intelligence according to 1200 pages of Navy records filed in Toronto Superior Court.
"How is it," says Galati, "that the Navy says that he was only in the service a few months and then send us a 1200 page personnel file? Some of the entries are obvious forgeries or alterations and the sanitizing of his records was done so hurriedly that some dates of medical exams in the 1990s were left intact."
In a January 10, 2002 tactic worthy of Perry Mason, with the greatest possible risk to his client if it failed, attorney Slansky got the judge to agree to let him call the Pentagon from open court. Using a speaker phone, in front of at least six witnesses, Slansky first dialed directory information and got a number for the Pentagon switchboard. Then, calling that number he asked the Department of Defense operator to locate the office of Lt. Delmart Vreeland. Within moments the operator had confirmed Vreeland's posting, his rank as a Lieutenant O-3, his room number and given Slansky his direct-dial number.
All of this is a part of the court record. On January 17, as this writer sat in the courtroom, another mind-numbing event occurred.
As Vreeland sat shackled in a corner, closely flanked by two guards, the Crown Solicitor sought to debunk Vreeland's assertions that he had been assigned to travel to Moscow to review and retrieve highly technical and classified documents pertaining to Russian and Chinese efforts to counter the proposed US "Star Wars" missile defense system. [Ed note: FTW believes this to be a cover story.] "Why," said the Crown
Solicitor, "would the US choose, in a case involving some of the most highly technical intelligence, a random seaman with training in the tool and die field." The point that someone discharged in 1986 with no special training and rank would be sent to review technical documents
sounded reasonable - assuming that Vreeland's background was as the Solicitor argued.
The reasonableness vanished a few moments later as the Crown Solicitor argued that Vreeland, who has been in jail and without access to a computer
for thirteen months, had somehow cracked the Pentagon's personnel records and inserted his name, an office number, and telephone extension into the Pentagon database."
well somethings there seem to click this naval intelligence man knew about the twin towers and other targets in advance puts the thought across if this is so and it seems to be so then you can bet that he wasn't alone in this knowledge so then that to me would answer Bushes lack of shock but even worse than that is if this was known in advance why wasn't safety procedures underway, so whoever was in the know was guilty also of the twin towers events and as Bush is head of all then he was to blame as well. Why was nothing done?
and here is another site which is a mine of information http://www.freeworldalliance.com/newsflash/newsflash.htm
I look into these sites and I do further research so call me a conspiratory theorist if you like, I just want to find the truth and I am not willing just to accept some politicians take on it as we all know how truthful politicians are !!!!
But hey I will repeat again this is my own opinion.
God Bless
 
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TheBear

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ksasnic,

There are all kinds of extreme and kook websites out there. And with all the various news networks and newspapers, some in support of Bush, others who happily report any of his shortcomings, and yet others who are neutral, you would think that some of this would be reported by credible journalists. The reason it's not, is because these wild-eyed ideas and theories are not substantiated to the level of any credibility. I guess they would meet the criterian for 'The Globe' or 'The Star', but no credible, decent journalist would even think to flush their reputation down the toilet to 'report' on such far-fetched rubbish.

Your opinions are just fine with me. I just wonder why it's more comfortable for you to lean in that direction.


John
 
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