The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching!

Pre trib or Post trib?

  • Post-trib

    Votes: 11 37.9%
  • Pre-trib

    Votes: 16 55.2%
  • Mid-trib

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No rapture

    Votes: 2 6.9%

  • Total voters
    29

Lawlord

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Greetings,

I have made a 12 minute video discussing this topic. Here is the link to my video:


I believe the pre-tribulation rapture is not borne out by the Word of God. I feel it ignores the scripture showing us that we will suffer and be hated in these times, war will be made against us, we will be beheaded and killed for the testimony of our word etc. I feel like the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is contributing to lack of preparedness and the falling away in the body of Christ, when the faith of many will fail under persecution and difficulty as they thought they would never suffer.

In this video I display onscreen all of the Word of God I rely on in my interpretation as I discuss this topic, so please read the information in the video as well.

You are welcome to disagree, and have your own interpretations. I am open to discussion and consideration of others points of view and opinions, however, I feel a lot of scripture must be ignored or distorted to accept the belief of the pre-tribulation rapture.

We are told those who are in the light will not be taken as a thief, they will not be sleeping but being awake and aware of the signs (1 Thes 5:1-8). I see the many signs of the impending judgment of the Lord upon the earth.

The Word tells us of the saints suffering under persecution, being hated by all nations, delivered up to death by their families, killed during the first four seals, made war against by the beast, the dragon, the false-prophet, and their blood found in Babylon (Babylon destroyed Rev 18). I cannot rectify these many areas of the Word of God with the belief that all believers will be taken before the tribulation. We are told that not all who say they are believers are true believers (Matthew 7:21-23), we are told the day of the Lord will not come before an apostasy/falling away and the man of sin exalting himself in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Anyway, you are welcome to consider my video. You can read the video description under the video to get a good summary of my main contention here.

I have made this video and other videos on my channel because I felt a lot of the Word of God was being ignored. I am moving according to my feelings and drivings of my spirit. Again you are welcome to have your own opinions/interpretations, I am open to discussion on these topics.

Kind Regards, Christopher
 

Lawlord

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My opinion is given in my video. I say when the rapture will be, the ONLY rapture. This is when Christ returns after the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29-31) at the sound of the trumpet, gathering the elect. This is the final trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and trumpet of 1 Thes 4. There IS clearly a rapture. But I believe it is clearly at the end of the tribulation. This position is stated in the video.

EDIT: I see you were referring to the Poll. I will edit this and add those options.
 
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BABerean2

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Greetings,

I have made a 12 minute video discussing this topic. Here is the link to my video:


I believe the pre-tribulation rapture is not borne out by the Word of God. I feel it ignores the scripture showing us that we will suffer and be hated in these times, war will be made against us, we will be beheaded and killed for the testimony of our word etc. I feel like the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is contributing to lack of preparedness and the falling away in the body of Christ, when the faith of many will fail under persecution and difficulty as they thought they would never suffer.

In this video I display onscreen all of the Word of God I rely on in my interpretation as I discuss this topic, so please read the information in the video as well.

You are welcome to disagree, and have your own interpretations. I am open to discussion and consideration of others points of view and opinions, however, I feel a lot of scripture must be ignored or distorted to accept the belief of the pre-tribulation rapture.

We are told those who are in the light will not be taken as a thief, they will not be sleeping but being awake and aware of the signs (1 Thes 5:1-8). I see the many signs of the impending judgment of the Lord upon the earth.

The Word tells us of the saints suffering under persecution, being hated by all nations, delivered up to death by their families, killed during the first four seals, made war against by the beast, the dragon, the false-prophet, and their blood found in Babylon (Babylon destroyed Rev 18). I cannot rectify these many areas of the Word of God with the belief that all believers will be taken before the tribulation. We are told that not all who say they are believers are true believers (Matthew 7:21-23), we are told the day of the Lord will not come before an apostasy/falling away and the man of sin exalting himself in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Anyway, you are welcome to consider my video. You can read the video description under the video to get a good summary of my main contention here.

I have made this video and other videos on my channel because I felt a lot of the Word of God was being ignored. I am moving according to my feelings and drivings of my spirit. Again you are welcome to have your own opinions/interpretations, I am open to discussion on these topics.

Kind Regards, Christopher

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023


The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 and Hebrews 12:18-24, proves that God is not going back to the "obsolete" Sinai covenant during a future time period of 7 years. On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel" and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31. It was spoken by Christ at the Last Supper and is found in Matthew 26:28.

The New Covenant was made with Israel and Judah. The Gentiles were grafted in later.

The Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of the branches of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.
When two trees are grafted together neither tree is replaced.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant, the pretrib rapture doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart along with the rest of the doctrine.





 
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keras

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Do humans ever go to heaven?
The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many "Christian" churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?
Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.
Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.

IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

Christians use such terminology all the time. Preachers use it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.
There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.
I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?
Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"

OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Hebrews 12:23

Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the Book of life, kept in heaven. But we receive life eternal at Christ's return in glory, when the resurrection of the righteous saints takes place. John 5:25-29, 1 Cor. 15:22 1Thess. 4:16 and John 6:37-39.

OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Corinthians 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return when the saints are resurrected. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.
Yes, again Paul says we look to, wait, hope for Christ's Return and the resurrection.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the righteous, those accounted worthy, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, Luke 21:34-36 Ref: Keith Hunt
 
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Lawlord

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Interesting Keras. What of Revelation 7:9-17. Those slain during the tribulation in white robes, who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb from the great tribulation. They are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger nor thirst and the Lamb in the midst of the throne will shepherd them to fountains of living waters and God shall wipe away their every tear.

Also in Rev 6:9-11 we have those saints who died during the first 4 seals who were slain for the word of God and the testimony which they held. They cry out to the Lord (they aren't sleeping in darkness) how long until they are avenged upon the earth. A white robe is given to them and it was said to them they should rest a little while longer until the number of their fellow brethren who would be killed as they was completed. We are told in Rev 2:10 those who suffer tribulation but are faithful unto their deaths will be given the crown of life.

Interesting BA - I had a look at the first article some, what I figured with the conclusion. I only needed to read the Bible for myself and see that people's beliefs of the pre-trib rapture were not supported by the Word. I believe this doctrine will greatly contribute to the falling away, when believers who assumed they would be taken from the earth before tribulation will fall away in faith when they are not, potentially cursing and renouncing God for their mistaken beliefs that were not supported by the Word.

I only hope that the brethren prepare themselves for the coming times, and do not renounce the Lord God unto their deaths, even in persecution and difficulty (which we are warned is coming).


EDIT

Kiterius - what is your view on Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and the basics of why you believe there is no rapture?
 
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keras

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Interesting Keras. What of Revelation 7:9-17. Those slain during the tribulation in white robes, who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb from the great tribulation.
Note that 'heaven' isn't mentioned anywhere in Rev 7. It is just another raptureist addition to scripture to place these events in heaven.
The vast multitude in Rev 7:9 are not killed people, they are all true Christians who have kept their faith during the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Not 'the' Great Trib, but; great tribulation [or great ordeal, R.E.Bible] and are gathered into the holy Land, as many prophesies state.
The Throne of God will be seen there, as Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen: Acts 7:56, saw it.
Rev 6:9-11: The saints who have been martyred, from Stephen until now, are told to wait until their number is completed. They all praise God for His judgement on their murderers, Revelation 19:1-3
Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and the basics of why you believe there is no rapture?
These verses describe what will happen when Jesus Returns to the earth. He will gather His own and they will meet Him in the clouds, then reign with Him for the 1000 years.
 
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BABerean2

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Interesting Keras. What of Revelation 7:9-17. Those slain during the tribulation in white robes, who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb from the great tribulation. They are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger nor thirst and the Lamb in the midst of the throne will shepherd them to fountains of living waters and God shall wipe away their every tear.

Also in Rev 6:9-11 we have those saints who died during the first 4 seals who were slain for the word of God and the testimony which they held. They cry out to the Lord (they aren't sleeping in darkness) how long until they are avenged upon the earth. A white robe is given to them and it was said to them they should rest a little while longer until the number of their fellow brethren who would be killed as they was completed. We are told in Rev 2:10 those who suffer tribulation but are faithful unto their deaths will be given the crown of life.

Interesting BA - I had a look at the first article some, what I figured with the conclusion. I only needed to read the Bible for myself and see that people's beliefs of the pre-trib rapture were not supported by the Word. I believe this doctrine will greatly contribute to the falling away, when believers who assumed they would be taken from the earth before tribulation will fall away in faith when they are not, potentially cursing and renouncing God for their mistaken beliefs that were not supported by the Word.

I only hope that the brethren prepare themselves for the coming times, and do not renounce the Lord God unto their deaths, even in persecution and difficulty (which we are warned is coming).


EDIT

Kiterius - what is your view on Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and the basics of why you believe there is no rapture?

I am glad you took the time to read the article.

Many of those sitting in the pews of modern evangelical churches have no idea that no American pastor taught a pretrib removal of the Church at the time of the Revolutionary War, based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons written at that time.

It is my belief if they understood the recent history of the teaching, more would start asking questions.

One of my favorite Baptist pastors was persecuted for not supporting the doctrine.
He had to abandon the doctrine based on what he found in his Bible.
Being a pastor in a Southern Baptist Church is not always easy.
He has now moved into his real calling, which is the mission field.


George Mueller was one of the original members of the Plymouth Brethren movement. After John Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" of the Irvingites and then divided scripture into that for the Church and that for Israel, Mueller said he had to depart from his Bible, or depart from Darby.

He chose the latter.
He and his wife latter established an orphanage that helped raise and educate thousands of young people.


He was quite a man.
.
 
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Lawlord

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Keras - Heaven isn't mentioned, but they are with the Lamb, He will wipe every tear away, they will not suffer, and they are at His throne. Being in the presence of the Lamb would be heaven. I have seen Jesus' bottom half in my dream, it was the most peaceful and beautiful thing I've ever seen seeing Him walk. To be in His presence would be on another level. Agreed on the rest of your points. The last comment on Matthew and Thes was directed at Kiterius and the no rapture position. How does the no rapture position account for Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thes 4:15-17? I would like a response.

BA- this was my exact feeling on the issue. I feel like the pre-trib is contributing greatly to lukewarmness within the church and will contribute greatly to the falling away. I want to ask for those supporting the pre-trib rapture. How are you going to feel if you aren't taken from the earth and suffer tribulation? Are you going to stand in your faith? Will you blame God if you find out that you are wrong? I don't want you to fall away, I hope you ponder questions such as (what if I'm not raptured before the tribulation). I present the Word of God on this topic in my video to give you pause to consider these questions, not to weaken you or insult you, but to strengthen your faith through the persecution and difficulty I believe will be in our lives.
 
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keras

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Keras - Heaven isn't mentioned, but they are with the Lamb, He will wipe every tear away, they will not suffer, and they are at His throne.
Revelation 7 must be read very carefully and don't make suppositions or add to it.
The first 3 verses of chapter 7, set an earthly scene. There is no change of location, only an assumption that the multitude must be in heaven, because the Throne is seen. But heaven being a spiritual place, it can be made visible to us from anywhere. Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen saw it while standing on earth. Jesus selects the 144,000 while standing on Mt Zion. Rev 14:1
Revelation 7:15-17, plainly refers to after the Millennium; Revelation 21:1-4....He will wipe away every tear.
 
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Lawlord

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Revelation 7:9-17 NKJV "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Revelation 5:6 NKJV "And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne." Are you saying the vision of John occurred on the earth? Are you saying the Lord on His throne and with the elders and living creatures is on the earth?

Also Revelation 5:11-12 NKJV "Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!” Are angels around the throne depicting a scene on earth? I don't think so. This is the same throne with the same creatures described in Revelation 7:9-17, where those from the tribulation go.

Rev 7 is clear those from the tribulation who washed their robes are in the presence of God's throne, the elders and living creatures and all who stood around the throne of God. Is this on the earth? I don't think so.

I didn't make any suppositions or add anything. This is exactly what we are told. Those who die during the tribulation, those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb will stand before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. Jesus will dwell with them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst, sun shall not strike them, nor any heat. God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. If the elder says "who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" this implies they came from somewhere (the earth).

Seeing the throne of God and being in its physical presence, with the angels, creatures and elders is a different thing. Also Rev 7 does not plainly refer to after the Millennium as you say. When the Lord returns those who stay true will be with Him during His reign. Those who died during the tribulation will be resurrected into their bodies and will reign with Christ on earth. Those who are alive at this time will be transformed and reign with Christ. I don't see inconsistency.
 
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dfw69

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Messiah Jesus was a man who died and was raised from the dead and arose to heaven ... So yes it is possible for a man to go to heaven to live with the father as Jesus is now...for if we believe in him then he will bring us to the father because he made a way to the father for nothing can separate us from his love for us

If you have faith that Jesus,being a man now lives with the father in heaven then it should not be hard to believe we are able to ascend as well in the future because of him..for we will be glorified as he was glorified with a heavenly body...what's the point of a heavenly body if we cannot enter the Holy of holies?.. the vail was rented ... all men welcomed to his throne in heaven

his status is ours by faith ...our status was taken to the cross... the law judge and condemn him for us....we are the sons of god.. we are his household...and we shall be with him and the father

No law can judge and condemn us ...our lives was already judge and condemn by the law and redeemed...our lives was paid for by the body of Christ ..

.if man one day seeks to judge and condemn us by the law, they will only reap judgement of the law upon themselves.. we are free and their judgements against us will be done in vain for the law has already judge our savior and our lives paid for ...we must keep the faith .. the persecution to come will not separate us from our fathers love for us and he will judge our enemies for us

If we are the body of Christ and Christ body resides in heaven, why can't we? Are we not his body? Are we not one with Christ and the father? Let no one take away your crown
 
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keras

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Rev 7 is clear those from the tribulation who washed their robes are in the presence of God's throne, the elders and living creatures and all who stood around the throne of God. Is this on the earth? I don't think so.
You know there is no rapture to heaven. We, therefore, remain on earth; to do what? To be God's people in all of His holy Land. To fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs of their descendants occupying all the area given to Abraham, that has never yet happened.
To be God's witnesses. Isaiah 43:10, to be the light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8 and to fulfil our destiny as His righteous people.
We see the holy people in the Land in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

Re God's Throne and heaven. They are a spiritual concept; outside of our dimension. It's childish to confine them to 'somewhere up there'.
Revelation 7:1-14 is clearly before the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, because the Seventh Seal time gap has yet to happen. A gap of about 1 half hour in heaven. This is about 20 years earth time. 1 day to God is equal to 1000 years earth time. [1/48th of a day and 1/48th of 1000 years.
So it is at least 15/16 years from the world changing Sixth Seal event until Jesus Returns. That period is right for all that is prophesied to happen; the Gog/Magog attack, the 'week' of Daniel, etc.

There is no escape from the earth, but the Lord promises amazing blessings for His Christian people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of His regenerated Land. Psalms 37:29
 
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keras

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If we are the body of Christ... and Christ body resides in heaven.. why can't we? Are we not his body? Are we not one with Christ and the father?
It's simple: Jesus said we can't go to heaven. John 3:13
Earth is our place, there is no purpose for us in heaven.

We are the Body of Christ and He gave us work to do here, escapism isn't an option.
 
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dfw69

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It's simple: Jesus said we can't go to heaven. John 3:13
Earth is our place, there is no purpose for us in heaven.

We are the Body of Christ and He gave us work to do here, escapism isn't an option.

That's not what that scripture says keras... we know Enoch and Elijah are in heaven but they were taken up and not of their own power...but only Jesus was able to ascend of his own power to heaven because god glorified his body to become immortal and with power to ascend. That what that scripture reveals

This is our future inheritance, to receive what Jesus recieved. It does not say no man will ever ascend to heaven. That scripture teaches Jesus recieved power to ascend. And if Jesus received that glory for his obedience to his father then so shall we recieve glory to ascend to heaven for our obedience to his son...

There are no obstacles in our way towards our father in heaven... Jesus is the way the truth and the life no man comes to the father in heaven but by him ...

His father house has many mansions and if it is not true he would not have said it...he said it as if it was already built and awaiting us...so that leave out any possibility of a future building of new Jerusalem on earth because Jesus said it's already built

And the rapture is not escapism. Its a promise to live with the father to behold his glory in heaven and a fulfillment of many promises for our faith in him

Earth is not our home... we are strangers and sojourners awaiting our true inheritance... new Jerusalem is our home and it now resides in heaven....
 
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Lawlord

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Look Keras. The Word is clear those who die during the tribulation but stay true to the Lord will be given the crown of life (Rev 2:10). We are told those who are killed during the great tribulation are described in Revelation 7. They will be with the Lord God. They will be with His angels, at His throne, and shall never hunger or thirst, and God will wipe away their every tear.

This does not mean people will be taken to the Lord before they die. I am saying those who perish on the earth during the tribulation, but stay true to the Lord, will go to Him, as the Word I quoted tells us. I don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture that people will be taken from the earth to the Lord before they die. If they die but stay true, they will go to the Lord, as the Word tells us. It is clear. This is not a "does heaven exist" discussion. This is a discussion on the rapture. Please go back on topic.

In relation to John 3:13, Revelation 13:8 KJV “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” And Revelation 17:8 KJV “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

So those written in the book of life, before the foundation of the world. This means they are not of this world, but are of heaven. We are told we are not of this world. They will return when they die. In relation to you saying where the throne of God is somehow a childish irrelevant matter – Isaiah 66:1 KJV “Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?”

We are told by God that the earth is his footstool and heaven is His throne. If the people who die during the tribulation go to the Lord, are with His angels, with the elders, with the four creatures, with each other in white robes, and at the throne of God, then they are in heaven. It's clear. The Lord will bring the kingdom of heaven to earth, when He reigns. Those who die before that time will be with the Lord in heaven.

Again, this is not a “does heaven exist?” discussion. This is a discussion on the rapture and you are going off topic.
 
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keras

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The truth that I promote, is what God actually does plan for our future.
The pretentious notion of a general rapture to heaven, before any trials or testing is refuted, so we should know what God does want from us Christians.
When that is understood and I assure you it can be, after all 1/4 to 1/3 of our Bibles is prophecy, some literally fulfilled, most awaiting literal fulfillment. [excepting the allegories and metaphors, which are usually easy to explain]
One of the biggest barrier to knowing God's plans for Christians, is not realizing that His promises to Israel now apply Christians. The New Testament makes this clear: Romans 9:24-26, Ephesians 1:11 and Isaiah 56:1-8, Isaiah 51:1-2 in the OT. The holy Land is our heritage, at last: we will be the people God has never had in Hs Land. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where God's holy people, all the true Christian Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, are seen there in the last days.
 
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Lawlord

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What do you suppose happens to the saints when they die during the tribulation? This is not escaping without facing trials, for many will die in their faith to the Lord. We are told we will be hated by all nations, that many will be killed/beheaded for their faith. War will be made against the saints by the dragon, the beast, the false-prophet and their blood will be found in Babylon. The scripture tells us they will go to the Lord at His throne and they will never thirst etc (Rev 7). Do you believe this isn't heaven? What do you suppose happens then to those saints who die holding fast to their faith? We are told in Rev 2:10 they will be given the crown of life. I'm not saying everyone is going to be taken to heaven without dying, or without trials, as I don't believe in the pre-trib rapture, but where are you saying these saints who die go? What is your actual position on this, I don't know if you've stated it fully.
 
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