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The PRE-incarnate Yeshua

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by johnd, Jul 1, 2009.

Did Yeshua exist before the incarnation?

  1. Yeshua existed before the incarnation

  2. Yeshua did not exist until the incarnation

  3. He existed but not as a "person" but as the words of God

  4. He existed as a "person" (God with God)

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. theguitardood

    theguitardood Member


    Luke 6:11

    Now it happened, the day after, that He went into a city called Naim; and many of His disciples went with Him, and a large crowd. And when He came near the gate of the city, behold, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother; and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the city was with her. When the Lord saw her, He had compassion on her and said to her, “Do not weep.” Then He came and touched the open coffin, and those who carried him stood still. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.” So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother.
    Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has risen up among us”; and, “God has visited His people.” And this report about Him went throughout all Judea and all the surrounding region.

    Just sayin'.
  2. David Ben Yosef

    David Ben Yosef Foundation In Torah

    My Rabbi teaches that all souls existed before taking on flesh. As far as I know all of Judaism agrees with that. Notice I said "as far as I know."

    However, the whole trinity thing is one of the major reasons I no longer call myself Messianic. It's in every faction of MJ's statement of faith. HaShem clearly states that He is Echad. No matter how you choose to count, three doesn't equal one. Not to mention the fact that Yeshua never once claimed to be HaShem.

    Heber, how is not believing in the trinity a heresy?
  3. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

    Because those who do believe in it will see that a denial of the Trinity is heresy! Always has been, always will be.

    Much the same, I expect, in that Jews probably see their interpretation of echad as being purely singular in every way as being corrupted by the Trinitarian view - so you would no doubt see me as a heretic!
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Let not the spirit of RCC's eyes of what is heretic settle any issues here.
  5. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

    RCC doesn't have a monopoly on what is, or is not, heresy.
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Doesn't mean you have to re-iterate what they say here on the subject.
  7. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    fact is we have MJs in both camps, we can bring understanding with out dividing our small group:groupray:

    There is soooooo much hope for the return of our beloved Messiah....He will set us straight when he returns:)

    BTW Im a pro Trinity person too:clap:

    I just think we can discuss this with out shutting folks out:groupray:
  8. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran


    a) I didn't reiterate what anyone says, certainly not Catholicism. I thought it all up on my own. It is a common enough statement.

    b) Please do not tell me what I can and cannot post!

    c) My comment was about an heresy - an unbelief - the whole modern day concept of which is far removed from that of the Catholic middle ages to which you allude, in total error. An heretic is one who does not believe (esp) in the Nicene Creed, of which a part is that of the belief in the Trinity. The denial of G_d the father, the Son and Holy Spirit is a departure from that creed and is therefore seen as heresy. Well within living memory, in the USA, a free church minister has been charged, and found guilty of heresy several times - so look to your own country's state laws!
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    that is not a scriptural definition of heresy, that is an RCC one...
  10. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

    If you want it to be - that is your prerogative. I'm not too bothered one way or the other.
  11. johnd

    johnd Well-Known Member

    First I'm hearing it. LDS teaches that.


    It's also in the Bible. Not taught as overtly as "Trinitarianism 101" but if like Anne Sullivan Macy (who broke through Helen Keller's prison of failed sense of sight and hearing) you repeat something often enough... people generally catch on.

    Echad family is one person? One individual?


    John 5:43
    43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

    There is a reason why Yeshua did not make claims about himself as deity (HaShem). He had a Messianic office to fulfill. This meant laying down his life to save his flock. He came to serve. Isaiah 53 the suffering SERVANT. Even earlier in the chapter Yeshua said he could not do certain things... not from inability but from submission to a prior arrangement. Because you will note he is capable of doing what the Father does. He is equal with God in this chapter and in Philippians 2.

    Track down John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:13-15 and Isaiah 44:24 and you will learn that Yeshua (preincarnate) was YHVH Creator, God the Word.

    But as it says in Isaiah 53 and Philippians 2 he had to restrain himself from using his own deity. He could have come down from the cross, roasted alive the mockers and split the lictors in two with a thought... but he stayed within the limits of his humanity and died... for you and I.

    As I demonstrated, Yeshua is YHVH incarnate. The Creator. And yet there is another... the Father... whose only creation was the body of the Son.

    John 1:1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:14
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Hebrews 10:5-7
    5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    And don't get uptight over him calling the Father God. The Father said it to the Son...

    Hebrews 1:8
    8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Folks tend to discredit the doctrine based on the flaws of RCC dogma in other areas. I am not a Catholic basher, but I believe the greatest throwing away of the baby with the bath water as far as the Jewishness of the fait his concerned... and the greatest pagan infiltration came through the RCC.

    Topic for another thread.

    But when they get one right, you have to give them that.

    It just so happened that the Church was persecuted to the point it was too far underground to hold councils to determine scripture canonization and to compare the complete biblical texts... until Constantine (who legalized Christianity to prop up his crumbling empire). Many believe the RCC is what the Roman Empire morphed into, and the fall of the empire was an empty shell.

    But the scriptures persist, there are three who are the one God. So we must alter our thinking of "one" to fit the facts just as we do in the example of a family. There is no such thing as a family of one.

    Heresy is a punk word used to punk people (not the Candid Camera version we see on tv today) it was a slam and in times past could cost one membership in a Church, citizenship, or their life.

    I prefer to say it this way. If God says he is this way (x-y-z), then any other version is the wrong god. We believe in 1. Fine so long as it is the same way God means 1 and indicates in scripture.

    John 17:11
    11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 17:22
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
  12. johnd

    johnd Well-Known Member

    If souls pre existed embodiment... then I guess God inhaled pre-Adam in Gensis 1 and 2 to breathe into him the breath of live making him a living soul.
  13. David Ben Yosef

    David Ben Yosef Foundation In Torah

    No offense, but that truly sounds like something a 5 year old would say.

    As far as the trinity doctrine goes I was stating my opinion only, not inviting a debate. Been there and done that.......to death.
  14. johnd

    johnd Well-Known Member

    I was simply pointing out the inconsistency of the concept of pre-existing souls and what the scripture tells us.

    You want to insult me under the guise of "no offense" that's fine. The mods may not be as gracious as I am. But I won't report you for it.

    There is only one pre-existent Spirit in scripture. The Word. God the Word. (said like Bond. James Bond). ;)

    Your problem and your rabbi's is with the scripture, the Bible. Not with me or anything else you can say derogatory about me or how I speak.

    Once again, your problem is with scripture. If you believe in only one person as God then you have a God who talks to himself, refers to himself as another person with another will than his, and so on.

    I presume you did in the debates as you do here, cover your eyes, plug your ears, and console yourself with others of like mind who also twist the scriptures to fit their own view. You've been there done that...

    No offense.
  15. David Ben Yosef

    David Ben Yosef Foundation In Torah

    Another one of your typical responses. Full of insults, and puffed up with pride. I can see that any discourse with you will be nothing but counter productive, so I'll choose to ignore you while I'm here. Shalom.
  16. marcusampe

    marcusampe Newbie

    Luke 6:16: Lu 7:16 Now everyone was overcome with fear and they began to glorify the God, saying: “A great prophet has been raised up among us, and The God has visited His People!” (MHM)
    Lu 7:16 All were awe-struck, and they gave glory to God—some saying, "A Prophet, a great Prophet, has risen up among us." Others said, "God has not forgotten His People." (Williams)
    ‘God did look upon His people.’ (YLT), and God has turned his face towards his people." (Phil), "God has given thought to his people." (BBE), “God has come to help his people.” (Cjb), "God has taken care of his people." (GWV)

    “God has visited His people.” or in a few more translations: "God has seen his people" or "God has taken care of His people" / looked back (HSVNTPS in translation) (WV 95) (Afr) "payed attention" (LEI) "and God looked back at His ecclesia" (NB) "and God cared about Hs people" (Nbv) "and God looked mercifully down at his people" (Willibrord 78), "Looked in grace" (AlbNT), "Today we have seen what God can do" (Book) "God has taken care of his people" (GNB)

    Like in Luke 5 people were astonished and praised God. It is because a prophet has come down, or a spokesman from God that they can say that it was the God who came unto them. In other translations it is clear that they agreed that it was God who looked at them (from there: "joined them")

    God did not forget them and send them a prophet. God also has visited the people because it was God who raised the dead boy. Jesus did not claim that he raised him from the dead. Because God had done that, He really came to join His people.
  17. marcusampe

    marcusampe Newbie

    Continuing about what it could mean that God had visited the people:

    Here are some other translations which help explain the expression at Luke 7:16.
    (NLT) "We have seen the hand of God at work today."
    (ISV NT) Luke 7:16 "God has helped his people."
    (Wey NT) "God has not forgotten His People."
    (AT - Goodspeed) "God has not forgotten His People!"

    (Isaiah 8:10) 10 Plan out a scheme, and it will be broken up! Speak any word, and it will not stand, for God is with us!

    Moto_blue Brings to his mind the example of Moses:
    Moses was representative for God, so Moses became as "God" to Aaron, who spoke representatively for him. -Ex. 4:10-17
    And then later, Jehovah referred to Aaron as Moses' "prophet," which meant that, as Moses was God's prophet, directed by him, so Aaron should be directed by Moses. Also in Ex 7:1, 2, Moses was told that he was being made "God to Pharaoh," in the sense that he was given divine power and authority over Pharaoh.

    Teddy trueblood let us think of the common Israelite expression "God [is] with us" and similar expressions.
    Immanuel (Matthew 1:23/Isaiah 7:14) (from the RDB files)
    Should Jesus really be considered to be God because he was symbolically "named" Immanuel (Is. 7:14; Mt. 1:23) which means "God is with us" (NRSV; NEB; REB; NAB; JB; NJB; LB)?
    No more so than Gabriel was calling himself God when he visited Mary and declared: "The Lord is with thee" ("The Lord with you" in the literal NT text) - Luke 1:28.
    The angel did not intend for Mary to take his words literally when he declared "The Lord is with thee." Gabriel would never claim to be the Lord! - Luke 1:28.
    Nor did Zacharias mean that John the Baptizer (his new son) was actually God when he was asked, "I wonder what this child [John] will turn out to be?", and he answered, "Praise the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has come to visit his people and has redeemed them." - Luke 1:66-68, LB.

    Gabriel and Zacharias (Zechariah) meant exactly what Israelites have meant throughout thousands of years when saying "God is with us" [literally "God with us" in most cases] and similar statements. They meant "God has favored us" or "God is helping us"! - Joshua 1:17; 1 Samuel 10:7; 2 Chron. 15:2-4, 9.
    But if we insist on trinitarian-type "proof," then Gabriel 'must' have meant that he (Gabriel) is God! And Zacharias (whose own name means `Jehovah is renowned' - p. 678, Today's Dictionary of the Bible) must have meant that John the Baptizer is God! – Also see 2 Sam. 14:17; 1 Ki. 8:57; 1 Chron. 17:2; 22:18; 2Chron. 1:1; 35:21; 36:23; Ezra 1:3; Is. 8:8, 10; Amos 5:14; Zech 8:23.
    The widely acclaimed trinitarian Bible dictionary, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Vol. 2, pp. 86, 87, states:

    "The name Emmanuel [or Immanuel] which occurs in Isa. 7:14 and 8:8 means lit. `God [is] with us' .... In the context of the times of Isaiah and King Ahaz the name is given to a child as yet not conceived with the promise that the danger now threatening Israel from Syria and Samaria will pass `before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose the good.' Thus, the child and its name is a sign of God's gracious saving presence among his people .... [The name Emmanuel] could be a general statement that the birth and naming of the special child will indicate that the good hand of God is upon us." - p. 86. And, "The point of the present passage [Matt. 1:23] is to see in the birth of Jesus a saving act of God, comparable with the birth of the first Emmanuel. Both births signify God's presence with his people through a child." - p. 87.
    The following trinitarian commentary shows, again, what this and similar expressions have meant to Israelites for thousands of years:
    The Adam Clarke Commentary
    Ruth Chapter 2
    Verse 4. Boaz came from Beth-lehem
    This salutation between Boaz and his reapers is worthy of particular regard; he said, Yehovah immachem, "Jehovah be with you!" They said, yebarechecha Yehovah, "May Jehovah bless thee!" Can a pious mind read these godly salutations without wishing for a return of those simple primitive times? The words may be thus paraphrased: "May God be with you, to preserve you from accidents, and strengthen you to accomplish your work!" "May God bless THEE with the increase of the field, and grace to use his bounty to the glory of the Giver!"
    "God with us" or "God with you" is a common expression in the scriptures meaning God is with you, and it is understood as God is helping you or is on your side.

    Notice the intended meanings of the following such expressions where the word "is" most often does not appear in the actual text, but is understood by the reader (quotes in brackets are from the Hebrew and Greek text portions of the Interlinear Bible, Baker Book House):

    Jud 6:13
    And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us ['Jehovah with you'], why then is all this befallen us?
    2Ch 13:12
    And, behold, God himself is with us ['And behold with us at head God'] for our captain, and his priests with sounding trumpets to cry alarm against you.
    Ps 46:7
    The LORD of hosts is with us ['Jehovah of Hosts with us']; the God of Jacob is our refuge. [Parallelism].
    Isa 8:10
    Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us ['with us God']. Same words as the "name" of Is. 7:14 and 8:8: "Immanuel." (8:8 is rendered "God is with us" in REB; CEV; TEV; BBE; and Moffatt interpreting it as a statement rather than a name.)
    2Ch 15:2
    The LORD is with you ['Jehovah with you'], while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.
    Am 5:14
    Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you ['Jehovah the God of hosts with you'], as ye have spoken.
    Hag 1:13
    Then spake Haggai the LORD'S messenger in the LORD'S message unto the people, saying, I am with you ['I with you'], saith the LORD.
    Zec 8:23
    Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you ['God with you'].
    Ro 15:33
    Now the God of peace be with you all ['and God of peace with all of you']. Amen.
    2Co 13:11
    Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
    Php 4:9
    Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
    The fact that the Messiah was given the symbolic name of "God is with us" simply means "God is helping us." The fact that God is helping us through the Messiah certainly does not mean that the Messiah is God!
  18. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

    You mean you guys didn't know all this?

  19. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    How's the air up there Herber? Be careful not to fall off your throne, its a long way down!
  20. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

    I don't know who Herber is but I'm sure he/she knows when to smile!