The Pre-Eminence of Rome

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Perceivence

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:wave:Hey!

Just a few quick question.

I stumbled across a quote from Irenaeus that read as follows (emphasis mine):
"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."


What is the Orthodox view on this statement of Irenaeus in relation to:

1. The claim that Rome was pre-eminent in honour but not in authority.
2. The claim that Rome was not pre-eminent in authority because of the founders of the Roman See, but because of the fact that it was a great city.
3. Any thing else.

Additionally, do the Eastern Orthodox believe that the Roman Church - ie, the Church in Rome - was founded by Peter as the Catholics believe and Irenaeus says above?
 

Prawnik

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For one thing, in the Bible it states that there were already Christians in Rome when Peter arrived there. Someone with more clueicity than I can point out chapter and verse.

For another, the passage from Irenaeus that you cite says that the Church of Rome had followed the true and correct Apostolic teaching. Which at the time Irenaeus wrote that passage, it had. The passage says nothing about the Pope, or his authority, as Pope or as Bishop of the Roman church, to alter the Apostolic Traditions entrusted to the Church.

Finally, for the Orthodox, noone is infallible other than God. So even if St. Irenaeus had written a fairly unambiguous passage, such as: "And the Bishop of the Church of Rome is, was, and shall be automatically correct in all matters of faith, even if that Bishop is Alexander VI", this does not mean that we as Orthodox are obligated to heed that passage.

Hope that helps. Feel free to ask more questions.
 
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Marjorie

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The RC translation is a bad translation.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.v.html

Now, the authors of the Latin translation3794 may have designed the ambiguity which gives the Ultramontane party an apparent advantage; but it is an advantage which disappears as soon as it is examined, and hence I am content to take it as it stands. Various conjectures have been made as to the original Greek of Irenæus; but the Latin answers every purpose of the author’s argument, and is fatal to the claims of the Papacy. Let me recur to the translation given, in loco, from a Roman Catholic, and this will be seen at once.

For he thus renders it:—

1. In this Church, “ever, by those who are on every side, has been preserved that tradition 461 which is from apostles.” How would such a proposition have sounded to Pius IX. in the Vatican Council? The faith is preserved by those who come to Rome, not by the Bishop who presides there.

2. “For to this Church, on account of more potent principality,3795 it is necessary that every Church (that is, those who are, on every side, faithful) resort.” The greatness of Rome, that is, as the capital of the Empire, imparts to the local Church a superior dignity, even as compared with Lyons, or any other metropolitical Church. Everybody visits Rome: hence you find there faithful witnesses from every side (from all the Churches); and their united testimony it is which preserves in Rome the pure apostolic traditions.

The Latin, thus translated by a candid Roman Catholic, reverses the whole system of the Papacy. Pius IX. informed his Bishops, at the late Council, that they were not called to bear their testimony, but to hear his infallible decree; “reducing us,” said the Archbishop of Paris, “to a council of sacristans.”

Sustaining these views by a few footnotes, I add (1) a literal rendering of my own, and then (2) a metaphrase of the same, bringing out the argument from the crabbed obstructions of the Latin text. This, then, is what Irenæus says: (a) “For it is necessary for every Church (that is to say, the faithful from all parts) to meet in this Church, on account of the superior magistracy; in which Church, by those who are from all places, the tradition of the apostles has been preserved.” Or, more freely rendered: (b) “On account of the chief magistracy3796 [of the empire], the faithful from all parts, representing every Church, are obliged to resort to Rome, and there to come together; so that [it is the distinction of this Church that], in it, the tradition of the apostles has been preserved by Christians gathered together out of all the Churches.” Taking the entire argument of our author with the context, then, it amounts to this: “We must ask, not for local, but universal, testimony. Now, in every Church founded by the apostles has been handed down their traditions; but, as it would be a tedious thing to collect them all, let this suffice. Take that Church (nearest at hand, and which is the only Apostolic Church of the West), the great and glorious Church at Rome, which was there founded by the two apostles Peter and Paul. In her have been preserved the traditions of all the Churches, because everybody is forced to go to the seat of empire: and therefore, by these representatives of the whole Catholic Church, the apostolic traditions have been all collected in Rome:3797 and you have a synoptical view of all Churches in what is there preserved.” Had the views of the modern Papacy ever entered the head of Irenæus, what an absurdity would be this whole argument. He would have said, “It is no matter what may be gathered elsewhere; for the Bishop of Rome is the infallible oracle of all Catholic truth, and you will always find it by his mouth.” It should be noted that Orthodoxy was indeed preserved there, just so long as Rome permitted other Churches to contribute their testimony on the principle of Irenæus, and thus to make her the depository of all Catholic tradition, as witnessed “by all, everywhere, and from the beginning.” But all this is turned upside down by modern Romanism. No other Church is to be heard or considered; but Rome takes all into her own power, and may dictate to all Churches what they are to believe, however novel, or contrary to the torrent of antiquity in the teachings of their own founders and great doctors in all past time.
The role of the papacy is discussed in this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=9408972#post9408972

Also, Sts. Peter and Paul are viewed as the founders of the Roman Church-- they were both martyred there.

In IC XC,
Marjorie
 
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Apostolos

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There's no hint that the Apostles (especially Peter), belonged to a specific local Church...on the contrary, they were all in charge of the ministry of the flock:

acts 2:14
"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words..."

acts 5:29
"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men

acts 8:14
"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John"

acts 16:4
"And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem"
 
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