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The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by BobRyan, Dec 20, 2018.

  1. DaDad

    DaDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Perhaps dyslexia is more common than I anticipated, or maybe the Font Size was too small for your reading glasses, so please accept the above "Size" assisted. Whatever the circumstance, I'm sure it neither an attempt to misrepresent the documented conversation, nor a failure to take responsibility for any errors in your posts. Accidents happen!

    Thanks,
    DaDad
     
  2. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    No sense in calling me "friend" if you are not going to read my responses for what they say.

    Yep, not in disagreement, at all.

    This is where you just 'added' your 'private interpretation' into the text itself. I used to basically believe the same as you, and the truth is not that far off from this position you presently have. So it is not so egregious, but simply a misunderstadning of the word 'prince' (nagiyd) here and the implication of "the people" thereof and why and how they brought destruction.

    Dan 9:26 KJB - And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Dan 9:26 HOT - ואחרי השׁבעים שׁשׁים ושׁנים יכרת משׁיח ואין לו והעיר והקדשׁ ישׁחית עם נגיד הבא וקצו בשׁטף ועד קץ מלחמה נחרצת שׁממות׃

    Dan 9:26 HOT Str# - ואחריH310 השׁבעיםH7620 שׁשׁיםH8346 ושׁניםH8147 יכרתH3772 משׁיחH4899 ואיןH369 לו והעירH5892 והקדשׁH6944 ישׁחיתH7843 עםH5971 נגידH5057 הבאH935 וקצוH7093 בשׁטףH7858 ועדH5704 קץH7093 מלחמהH4421 נחרצתH2782

    Dan 9:26 HOT translit. - w'achárëy haSHävuiym shiSHiym ûsh'nayim yiKärët mäshiyªch w'ëyn lô w'häiyr w'haQodesh yash'chiyt am nägiyd haBä w'qiTZô vaSHe†ef w'ad qëtz mil'chämäh nechéretzet shomëmôt

    Even if one does not read Hebrew (which is unnecessary), but simply the English, carefully, and with the bible in mind in other places, which shed light upon these events, we can know for certain, that the "prince that shall come" was indeed Jesus Christ. How can we know from the English (KJB)?

    [1] in Daniel 9:25, Jesus is called "Messiah the Prince" (משׁיח נגיד;
    משׁיחH4899 נגידH5057; mäshiyªch nägiyd)

    [2] in Daniel 9:26a, Jesus is again called "Messiah" (משׁיח; משׁיחH4899; mäshiyªch) and thus Daniel 9:26 is simply enlarging upon Daniel 9:25's "Messiah (a.) the Prince (b.)", when vs 26 says, "Messiah (a.) ... the prince (b.) that shall come ..."; in other words "the ruler" that was prophesied to be sent by God to rule all (Isaiah 9:6,7; Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:6).

    [3] the word "prince" (נגיד ; נגידH5057; nägiyd) is only used for Jesus Christ the Messiah in all of Daniel, see Daniel 9:25,26, 11:22 ("prince of the covenant") as the anointed ruler thereof. Other examples in scripture of this are seen in the anointed kings of Israel (see 1 Samuel 25:30; 2 Samuel 6:21, 7:8; 1 Kings 1:35, 14:7, 16:2; 1 Chronicles 5:2, 11:2, 17:7, 28:4, 29:22; 2 Chronicles 6:5, 11:22), the anointed rulers of the priests (1 Chronicles 9:11,20, 12:27; 2 Chronicles 31:12,13, 35:8; Jeremiah 20:1; Nehemiah 11:11; or those associated, 1 Chronicles 26:24, 27:4), the leaders of the tribes of Israel (1 Chronicles 27:16), generals/captians over others (1 Chronicles 13:1; 2 Chronicles 11:11; Psalms 76:12), or as one like Job (Job 31:37). (There are a few rare instances in scripture where the word can be used in a general sense for any ruler or captain over others (Job 29:10), even an opposing ruler/s, captians (see 2 Chronicles 23:21; Ezekiel 28:2), but the context is always clear in these instances; and it can mean a few other things in rare instances (Proverbs 8:6)).

    [4] Gabriel and Daniel (Daniel 10:20), under guidance of the Holy Ghost, when refering to a foreign power and its leadership thereof, as a 'prince' (such as in the case of Grecia), another word is used instead, which is (שׂר ;שׂר H8269; sar; which means 'ruler'), and thus the word, "prince" (נגיד ; נגידH5057; nägiyd)" in Daniel 9, in its own context and surrounding, is not a reference to the Roman ruler (Caesar) in Daniel 9, though the word "sar" can be applied.

    [5] the entire context of Daniel 9 is the Messiah and His people,

    [a.] Daniel 9:24a, "thy (Daniel's) people", the Israelites
    [b.] Daniel 9:24b, "thy (Daniel's) holy city, earthly Jerusalem
    [c.] Daniel 9:24c,d,e,f,g,h - dealing with the sins of the professed people of God and the ministration of the Great High Priest/Jesus and his work on earth and in Heaven.
    [d.] Daniel 9:25a, "the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" (found in Ezra 6:14, 7:1-28)
    [e.] Daniel 9:25b, "Messiah the Prince" - Jesus Christ
    [f.] Daniel 9:26a, "Messiah" - Jesus Christ
    [g.] Daniel 9:26b, "the people of the prince" - Israelites
    [h.] Daniel 9:26b, "of the prince that shall come" - Jesus, being ruler over "the people" sent of God, that was to "come"
    [i.] Daniel 9:26c, "the city and the sanctuary" - earthly Jerusalem
    [j.] Daniel 9:27a, "And he ..." - Jesus (Pronoun pointing back to a Noun, context, Messiah the Prince, Messiah ... the prince that shall come)
    [k.] Daniel 9:27b "confirm the covenant with many for one week" - Jesus confirms the New Covenant with the Apostles (Hebrews 2:3) for the first half of the week (3 1/2 years unto AD 31, His death) and then confirms with the rest of the people through His Apostles, for 3 1/2 more years, unto the stoning of Stephen (AD 34) and the rejection of it by the Sanhedrin, as they had done to Jesus.
    [l.] Daniel 9:27c, "he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease" - Jesus (Pronoun pointing back to the Noun, Messiah the Prince), did this by His death, and thus there are no more sacrifices for sins as Hebrews 10:26, etc, explains.
    [m.] Daniel 9:27d, "he shall make it (earthly sanctuary) desolate" - Jesus (Pronoun pointing back to a Noun) leaves and does not return to earthly Jerusalem, neither to the earthly temple ever again, see Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35.

    [6] there are previous examples given to us in scripture, and Daniel himself experienced one of them.

    [a.] In the first destruction of Jerusalm and its Temple by Babylon and King Nebuchadnezzar, this very King is used by God to punish rebellious Israel, because they (the people) had rejected God, and so God withdrew, and allowed the city/temple to be destroyed. What brought the destruction? Israel's sins. Nebuchadnezzar is even called by God, "my servant" (Jeremiah 25:9).

    [b.] In the events of Moses and the Israelites attempting to cross over into the promised land. Balak and Balaam came along, and could do nothing to affect them, that is until the people sinned, and so God withdrew His protection, and allowed destruction to come.

    There are numerous examples of this in scripture, see the book of Judges, etc.

    Therefore, the same events repeated, as per Ecclesiastes 1:9, 3:15; in that when "the people" (of God) rejected the "Messiah the Prince", the "Messiah ... the prince that shall come" (as promsied by God), they actually destroyed their own city and temple, because they rejected the protection God offered in Christ Jesus. When Jesus said, "Your house is left unto you desolate", it was in exact fulfillment of Daniel as was the statement of Jesus in reference to the destruction (Matthew 23:36) that would be brought about by such rejection and refusal to repent of sin and accept Him, their Messiah, their rightful Prince.

    Did the Roman armies actually destroy Jerusalem? Only in after effect (as the Babylonians), for if the Jewish leadership had accepted the Messiah their prince, no such destruction could have come, for God would have dwelt in it, and its sanctuary.

    The entire context of Daniel 9, is about God's people, sin, deliverance and the Messiah.

    Who destroyed the city? God's own professed people by their neglect and refusal. Even as the human city/temple may so be destroyed:

    1Co_3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Mat_5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

    That is eisegesis. You added the words into the text. "Roman people" are not present, neither "antichrist". In fact, the whole of Daniel 9 is about the Christ/Messiah and his people, not antiChrist.

    AntiChrist's "people" are not merely "Roman". The people of AntiChrist are of every nation, kindred, tribe, tongue and people.

    Sorry, that is not congruent with the text itself, neither with Daniel 8:13,14,26; Revelation 9:15, 14:6-7; neither Hebrews 2:3; and is actually Jesuit Futurism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

    The 70 weeks are a smaller portion of the 2,300 day/years of Daniel 8:13,14,26. This is referred to in Daniel 9 itself.

    Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

    Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

    The very "vision" that Daniel did not fully understand in Daniel 8:

    Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

    Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

    Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

    Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

    Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

    Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

    Because Daniel could not take all of the information presented in Daniel 8, Gabriel came back in Daniel 9 (15 years later) to accomplish the mission given in Daniel 8 in regards the 2,300.

    No doubt at all about that, and no question or contention. However, I do not assume, as you do, that "he" and "prince" refers to a Roman Leader. The context does not does refer to Rome. It refers to Jerusalem and its "Messiah the Prince", even "Messiah ... the prince that shall come" and "the people" of that "prince" and their actions bringing destruction.

    Jesuit futuristic interpretation.

    There is not a single place in all of scripture, and definitely not in the mouth of two or three witnesses therein, where "antiChrist" makes a covenant with anyone.

    You have imagined that into the text, and I know for certain you did not get the idea on your own.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  3. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Excellent, we can move on now and back to the OP.
     
  4. DaDad

    DaDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It seems we've entered the surreal. Perhaps there's a full moon, or maybe jet aircraft high altitude vapor trail "poisoning" is REAL. But in any instance, I think there are circumstances which exceed any one individual's ability to effect. Please enjoy each other, as I slowly back up to get away from each of you ...

    Whew,
    DaDad
     
  5. liberty of conscience

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    Excellent, we can now move back to the importance of the OP.
     
  6. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    This is not an actual evidential response which counters anything which was shown here (in summary) - The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

    Much of the 'teaching' was in existence before the Seventh-day Adventist movement, for instance the 2,300 day/years:

    The 2300 Days of Daniel 8:14, from Non-Millerite, and Pre-Adventist Sources:

    This is just a few of the quotations, from a study I am presently doing, and have many other sources being considered at this time, and is still in progress.

    Church of Ireland; Irish Clergyman and Scientific Writer: William Hales (AD 8 April 1747 – AD 30 January 1831) on Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:24:

    Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:24:

    “... [page 11] 3. If now we count forward ... the prophetic division of the 1260 years ... and included perhaps in that specified by Daniel VIII, 13-14, as of consisting of "2300 [page 11-12] prophetic days, or years," will be closed; supposing it to commence with Daniel's "70 prophetic weeks," or 490 years ...

    ... And according to the still more sagacious conjecture, of the learned and worthy Layman - (and Irishman too, were I at liberty to divulge his name) - in a Comment on the Revelation, 8vo, 1787, Payne, reckoning the 70 weeks the former branch of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days - and the latter 2300 - 490 = 1810 ...”

    “... [page 76] (at the end of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days, Dan. VIII. 14.) ...”

    “... [page 145] and the commencement of Daniel's 70 weeks, (forming the first branch of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days, VIII. 14.) ...”

    “... [page 199] the amazing commentary, as it is the further illustration of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days in the preceeding chapter, Dan. VIII. ...”

    “... [page 206] the assumed commencement of the 70 weeks, and also of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days ...”

    “... [page 207] 26. And after the sixty and two weeks, before specified, as the largest division of the 70, was the Anointed [Leader] "cut off" judicially, by an iniquitous sentence, in the midst of the one week, which formed the third and last division, and began with our Lord's Baptism, about AD 27 - "When he was beginning to be thirty years of age," and commenced his mission, which lasted three years and half until his crucifixion, about AD 31.

    27. During this one week, which ended about AD 34, (about the martyrdom of Stephan,) a new covenant was established with many of the Jews, of every class; in the midst of which the Temple sacrifice was virtually abrogated by the all-sufficient sacrifice of the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the [repentant and believing] world. ...”

    “... [page 259]

    Grand Prophetic Period of 2300 days - 149

    First Division, 70 Weeks, or 490 years - 200

    The 7 Weeks - - - - - 205

    62 Weeks - - - - - - 207

    1 Weeks - - - - - 207,208

    Second Division, 1810 Years - - - .ib.

    1260 Days (Note a) - - - -8,63

    1290 Days - - - - - 34

    1335 Days - - - - - 35 ...” [The Inspector, or Select Literary Intelligence for the Vulgar; AD 1798 … [select pages], written in 1799] - The inspector, or Select literary intelligence


    Methodist: Adam Clarke (AD 1760 or AD 1762 – AD 1832) Commentary, on Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:4,6; Daniel 7:25, 8:14,26, 9:24,25,27; Revelation 12:14, quoted in relevant part:

    Numbers 14:34:

    “... After the number of the days - The spies were forty days in searching the land, and the people who rebelled on their evil report are condemned to wander forty years in the wilderness! ...” - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/numbers/14.htm

    Ezekiel 4:4:

    “... 4. The days signify years, a day for a year; during which they were to bear their iniquity, or the temporal punishment due to their sins. ...” - Ezekiel 4 Clarke's Commentary

    Ezekiel 4:6:

    Forty days - Reckon, says Archbishop Newcome, near fifteen years and six months in the reign of Manasseh, two years in that of Amon, three months in that of Jehoahaz, eleven years in that of Jehoiakim, three months and ten days in that of Jehoiachin, and eleven years in that of Zedekiah; and there arises a period of forty years, during which gross idolatry was practiced in the kingdom of Judah. ...” - Ezekiel 4 Clarke's Commentary

    Daniel 7:25:

    “... Until a time and times and the dividing of time - In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, … ) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.

    If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction. The end is probably not very distant; it has already been grievously shaken by the French. In 1798 the French republican army under General Berthier took possession of the city of Rome, and entirely superseded the whole papal power. This was a deadly wound, though at present it appears to be healed; but it is but skinned over, and a dreadful cicatrice remains. The Jesuits, not Jesus, are now the Church's doctors. ...” - Daniel 7 Clarke's Commentary

    Daniel 8:14:

    "Unto two thousand and three hundred days - Though literally it be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Yet I think the prophetic day should be understood here, as in other parts of this prophet, and must signify so many years. …" - Daniel 8 Clarke's Commentary

    Daniel 8:26:

    “... The vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true - That mentioned in Daniel 8:14.

    For it shall be for many days - Not less than two thousand three hundred years! ...” - Daniel 8 Clarke's Commentary

    Daniel 9:24,25,27:

    “... When thus supplicating God in behalf of Israel, the angel Gabriel is sent to inform him of the seventy prophetic weeks, or four hundred and ninety natural years ...

    ... [vs 24] Seventy weeks are determined - The Jews had Sabbatic years, Leviticus 25:8, by which their years were divided into weeks of years, as in this important prophecy, each week containing seven years. The seventy weeks therefore here spoken of amount to four hundred and ninety years. ...

    ... [vs 25] And if we reckon back four hundred and ninety years, we shall find the time of the going forth of this command. ...

    ... Four hundred and ninety years, reckoned back ... the very month and year in which Ezra had his commission from Artaxerxes Longimanus, king of Persia, (see Ezra 7:9), to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. See the commission in Ezra 7:11-26 (note), and Prideaux'sConnexions, vol. 2 p.

    The above seventy weeks, or four hundred and ninety years, are divided ...

    I. Seven weeks, that is, forty-nine years.

    II.-Sixty-two weeks, that is, four hundred and thirty-four years.

    III. One week, that is, seven years. ...

    ... the first period of seven weeks ... forty-nine years ...

    From the above seven weeks the second period of sixty-two weeks, or four hundred and thirty-four years more, commences, at the end of which the prophecy says, Messiah the Prince should come, that is, seven weeks, or forty-nine years, should be allowed for the restoration of the Jewish state; from which time till the public entrance of the Messiah on the work of the ministry should be sixty-two weeks, or four hundred and thirty-four years, in all four hundred and eighty-three years.

    From the coming of our Lord, the third period is to be dated, viz., "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week," that is seven years, Daniel 9:27. ...

    ... These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy prophetic weeks ...

    ... [vs 27] I have only to add that this mode of reckoning years and periods by weeks is not solely Jewish. Macrobius, in his book on Scipio's dream, has these remarkable words: Sed a sextausqueadseptimamseptimanam fit quidemdiminutio, sedocculta, et quae detrimentumsuumapertadefectione non prodat: ideononnullarumrerumpublicarum hic mosest, ut post sextamadmilitiamnemocogatur; Somn. Scip., lib. 1 c. , in fine. "From the sixth to the seventh week, there is a diminution of strength; but it is hidden, and does not manifest itself by any outward defect. Hence it was the custom in some republics not to oblige a man to go to the wars after the sixth week, i.e., after forty-two years of age." ...” - Daniel 9 Clarke's Commentary

    Revelation 12:14:

    "... It is said here that the period for which the woman should be nourished in the wilderness would be a time, times, and a half; consequently this period is the same with the twelve hundred and sixty days of Rev_12:6. ...

    ... by understanding a time to signify a year; times, two years; and half a time, half a year; i.e., three years and a half. And as each prophetic year contains three hundred and sixty days, so three years and a half will contain precisely twelve hundred and sixty days. The Apocalypse being highly symbolical, it is reasonable to expect that its periods of time will also be represented symbolically, that the prophecy may be homogeneous in all its parts. The Holy Spirit, when speaking of years symbolically, has invariably represented them by days, commanding, e. gr., the Prophet Ezekiel to lie upon his left side three hundred and ninety days, that it might be a sign or symbol of the house of Israel bearing their iniquity as many years; and forty days upon his right side, to represent to the house of Judah in a symbolical manner, that they should bear their iniquity forty years, The one thousand two hundred and threescore days, therefore, that the woman is fed in the wilderness, must be understood symbolically, and consequently denote as many natural years. ...

    ... The woman is nourished for one thousand two hundred and threescore years from the face of the serpent, …" - Revelation 12 Clarke's Commentary
     
  7. liberty of conscience

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    This is not an actual evidential response which counters anything which was shown here (in summary) - The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

    Much of the 'teaching' was in existence before the Seventh-day Adventist movement, for instance the 2,300 day/years:


    Methodist: Rev. Joseph Benson (AD 1749 – AD 1821) Commentary, on Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:4-6; Daniel 7:25, 8:13, 9:24,25,26,27; Revelation 2:10, quoted in relevant part:

    Numbers 14:34:

    “... Numbers 14:34 Each day for a year — So there should have been forty years to come, but God was pleased mercifully to accept of the time past as a part of that time. ...” - Numbers 14 Benson Commentary

    Ezekiel 4:4-6:

    “... And lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days, &c. — From the days that I shall order thee to lie upon thy left side thou shalt understand how many years I have borne with their iniquity, for each day was to signify a year: see Ezekiel 4:6. Thou shalt bear their iniquity — Thou shalt, in the way of a sign or symbol, suffer for their iniquity, namely, in lying so long upon one side. Or, thou shalt pre-signify the punishment which they shall bear. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity — This verse explains the former: I have pointed out the number of years wherein apostate Israel sinned against me. According to the number of days, three hundred and ninety days — This number of years will take us back, with sufficient exactness, from the year in which Jerusalem was sacked by Nebuchadnezzar to the first year of Jeroboam’s reign, when national idolatry began in Israel.” — Bishop Newcome. Some, however, rather suppose that the years are meant which intervened between the falling of Solomon into idolatry, and the carrying away of the ten tribes by Shalmanezer, at which time they entirely ceased to be a nation or people of themselves, and were wholly dispersed and mixed with other nations. Thou shalt bear the iniquity of Judah forty daysSo many years there were from the time when King Josiah entered into a solemn covenant to serve and worship God, (from whence their future idolatry received a great aggravation,) to the destruction of the city and temple. I have appointed thee each day for a year — Days frequently stand for years in the prophetical accounts of time. ...” - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/ezekiel/4.htm

    Daniel 7:25:

    "... And they shall be given, &c. — “A time, all agree, signifies a year; and a time, and times, and the dividing of time, or half a time, are three years and a half; and the ancient Jewish year, consisting of twelve months, and each month of thirty days, a time, and times, and half a time, or three years and a half, are reckoned in the Revelation 11:2-3; Revelation 12:6; Revelation 12:14, as equivalent to forty-two months, or twelve hundred and sixty days; and a day, in the style of the prophets, is a year; (see Ezekiel 4:4;) and it is confessed that the seventy weeks, in Daniel 9. are weeks of years, and consequently twelve hundred and sixty days are twelve hundred and sixty years. ... these twelve hundred and sixty years ... twelve hundred and sixty years ..." - Bishop Newton" - Daniel 7 Benson Commentary

    Daniel 8:13:

    “... It must, however, be remembered, that many interpreters understand these days in the same sense in which days are generally understood by this prophet, namely, for years; and thus refer the prophecy to antichrist, ... This will carry us on to a still distant time in the church of God, to the completion of that opposition to the church of Christ which has been wished for long since, when the sanctuary will be perfectly cleansed, and to which the twelve hundred ninety and thirteen hundred thirty-five years of chap. 12. must have a reference. Sir Isaac Newton, Obs., chap. 9., not only reckons the days to be years, but will have the horn to be Rome, and does not refer it at all to Antiochus; and in this he is followed, in a great measure, by Bishop Newton ...” - Daniel 8 Benson Commentary

    Daniel 9:24,25,26,27:

    “... [vs 24] Daniel 9:24. Seventy weeks, &c. — Weeks not of days, but of years, or, seventy times seven years, that is, four hundred and ninety years, each day being accounted a year according to the prophetic way of reckoning, (see note on Daniel 7:25,) a way often used in Scripture, especially in reckoning the years of jubilee, which correspond with these numbers in Daniel: see Leviticus 25:8. See also Genesis 29:27, where, to fulfil her week, is explained by performing another seven years’ service for Rachel; and Numbers 14:34, where we read, that according to the number of the days which the spies employed in searching out the land of Canaan, even forty days, the Israelites were condemned to bear their iniquities, even forty years. Thus God says likewise to Ezekiel, contemporary with Daniel, I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days three hundred and ninety days. I have appointed thee EACH DAY FOR A YEAR. Nor was this mode of expression in use only among the Jews; for Varro, speaking of himself, says, he was entered into the twelfth week of his age, at the close of which he would have been eighty-four years old. In these instances, the days evidently denote solar years, which were in use throughout the Jewish history; so that there is no probability that the angel should here intend any such singularity, as counting by lunar years. ...

    ... [vs 25] The third decree, which was that of Artaxerxes Longimanus, recorded at large Ezra 7:12-26, “was of great solemnity and efficacy, importing no less than the restoration of the Jewish constitution, both civil and ecclesiastical, providing in the first place for the re-establishment of divine worship with becoming order and magnificence, exempting the priesthood from all taxes; then, for the civil government of the people, the institution of tribunals, and the administration of justice, according to the law of Moses. This decree answers to all the characters of the prophecy, the restoring of the constitution, the rebuilding of the city, and the chronological periods distinctly specified,” and is, no doubt, here chiefly intended. ...

    ... the archangel commences the seventy weeks, not from the actual rebuilding the walls and streets, but from the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild them. So that the date of the first edict, not the work itself, is the epoch from whence begins the period of four hundred and ninety years. ...” — Apthorp. ...

    ... shall be seven weeks ... in forty-nine years ... the interval of forty-nine years ... ” — Dr. Apthorp. ...

    ... [vs 26] Daniel 9:26. After threescore and two weeks ... or four hundred and thirty- four years; ending with the sixty-ninth [prophetic] week, and with the commencing of our Lord’s ministry. ... For sixty-two weeks, or four hundred and thirty-four years, added to seven weeks, or forty-nine years, are equal to four hundred and eighty- three years. After which period, or in the last one week, containing seven years, the Messiah should be cut off. ..." — Dr. Apthorp.

    ... [vs 27] For one week — ... from his baptism. The first half week of Daniel is from the beginning of Christ’s first preaching, Mark 1:15, Repent ye, and believe the gospel ... in one week, or seven years ...” - Daniel 9 Benson Commentary

    Revelation 2:10:

    "... ten days — That is, a considerable time: for, as Lowman observes, It is not to be understood literally, which would have been a short time of affliction indeed, and hardly agreeable to such a description of that tribulation as this prophecy seems to have been intended to prepare the church for Bishop Newton supposes that these ten days mean ten years, according to the usual style of prophecy; and that the persecution of Dioclesian is referred to, which lasted that time, and was the greatest persecution that the primitive church ever endured, most grievously afflicting all the Asian, and indeed all the eastern churches. This persecution, he thinks, and none of the other general persecutions, answers the character here given, none of the others lasting so long as ten years. …" - Revelation 2 Benson Commentary

    Roman Catholic (Layman, Scientist): Arnold of Villanova (AD 1235 – AD 1313), on Daniel 8:14:

    Daniel 8:14: "... When he says 'two thousand three hundred days' it must be said that by days he understands years. This is clear through the explanation of the angel when he says that in the end the vision will be fulfilled, from which he gives it to be understood by clear expression that in that vision by days are understood years. ..." - Translated from Arnold of Villanova, Introductio in Librum [Joachim] De Semine, fol. 7 v, col. 2, line 34 to fol. 8 r, col. 1, line 2. "... It is not unaccustomed, in the Scripture of God, for days to under-stand years. Nay, it is certainly usual and frequent. Whence also the Spirit in Ezekiel testifies: 'A day for a year I have reckoned to you. ..." - Translated from Arnold of Villanova, Introductio in Librum [Joachim] De Semine,, fol. 8 r, col. 1, lines 14-20. As translated/quoted in Leroy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1; Page 750 " ... 'Up to the evening and the morning, two thousand three hundred days.' By a day, however, he understands a year. ..." - Tractatus de Tempore Adventus Antichristi (Treatise on the Time of the Coming of Antichrist), fol. 59 v, col. 2 to fol. 60 r, col. 2. As translated/quoted in LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1, Page 752 " ... 'From the time when the continual sacrifice will have been taken away, and there will have been set up'—that is, up to the time when will be set up—`the abomination upon the desolation' namely, of the faithful people, 'a thousand two hundred and ninety days.' And here, just as above, by a day a year is understood, which is clear through what precedes, since it says 'And when the dispersion of the power of the holy people, all these things will be completed.' ..." - Tractatus de Tempore Adventus Antichristi (Treatise on the Time of the Coming of Antichrist), fol. 61 r, col. 2, line 28 to fol. 61 v, col. 1, lin. As translated/quoted in LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1, Page 753 " ... it is certain, as was clear above, that Daniel under the name of days gives us to understand years and not usual days ...” “... such an understanding agrees with the common concepts of men and the truth of Sacred Scripture commonly known. ..." - Tractatus de Tempore Adventus Antichristi (Treatise on the Time of the Coming of Antichrist), fol. 63 r, col. 1, lines 21-32. As translated/quoted in LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1, Page 754-755 - http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/PFOF/PFOF1950-V01.pdf#view=fit

    Other, Scientist: Sir Isaac Newton (AD 25 December 1642 – AD 20 March 1727) Commentary on Daniel & Revelation; Daniel 8:14; Revelation 2:10, quoted in relevant part:

    Daniel 8:14: "...[8] Daniel, one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Daniel's days are years ...

    ... The Sanctuary and Host were trampled under foot 2300 days; and in Daniel's Prophecies days are put for years: but the profanation of the Temple in the reign of Antiochus did not last so many natural days. …" - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, the Apocalypse of St. John; Chapter IX - Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John Revelation 2:10:

    "... The tribulation of ten days can agree to no other persecution than that of Dioclesian, it being the only persecution which lasted ten years. …" - Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John Volume 2; Page 290; - Observations upon the prophecies of Daniel, and the apocalypse of St. John
     
  8. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    If I really am "dear" to you, and as such, an "friend", then will you do me the favour of not accusing or assuming something of, me, which has not been demonstrated in evidence (for instance, I have read many persons and things, not merely 'SDA material' (which btw, everything that calls itself 'SDA material' isn't). Please. I am more than willing to be both your friend, and a close one even at that, so "dear".

    Do not be grieved for me, but be grieved for your sins and mine.

    "Convoluted" has not been demonstrated upon your part. I have asked you to be specific, and we can even look at "one" point at a time, as you wanted.

    I have not been "mislead" (sic) by the Seventh-day Adventist movement, but understand all that I know from scripture itself (Isaiah 8:20).

    "False" has not yet been demonstrated in evidence by yourself, or anyone here yet. I have been waiting for said evidence.

    In all kindness:

    Pro_28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

    Consider this verse in what it plainly says, please.

    According to the Bible, what is the blessing of God?

    Act_3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities (1 John 3:4).

    "One" point at a time would be nice, so you could start with the first sentence of my replies and we can go from there.

    History does not define the prophecy. Prophecy is history in advance, and in fact, is the word of God spoken slowly to us, that we may all see the word played out in time.

    I have tested sister White according to the Biblical standard of prophets, and she passes the tests of messenger of the LORD, and she is even more than a prophet (meaning her role given by God encompasses greater responsibility than merely things of the future). If you will consider the history, sister White was not the one who first identified the 'investigative judgment'.

    There might indeed be such people in the world (for mere men have followed other mere men for a long time now), but I am not one of them, since I follow Jesus Christ. Do I accept the written material of sister White? Yes, since it was given by God through the vessel. I accept her as I accept any other prophet of scripture, Moses, Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Deborah, Paul, Philips four daughters, etc.

    Sola scriptura (Isaiah 8:20) doesn't negate the gifts of God (1 Corinthians 12-14; Ephesians 4:11, etc), such as prophets, neither does it negate the book of God's creation (nature). Sola scriptura itself includes Isaiah 8:20, which says:

    Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Order of given:

    [1] to the Law
    [2] to the testimony (prophets)

    The two "witnesses" of God.

    Rom_3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Therefore, since prophets are one of the gifts of the church, I accept what 1 Corinthians 12-14; Ephesians 4:11, et say in this matter, in that prophets would be in the church, even at the end of time. That is not argument against "Sola scriptura', but is proof of it.

    The two things are not exclusive, since the gift of prophecy is one of the gifts identified in scripture itself to be in the true church of God.

    The preserved word of God in English (the KJB) is the foundation of all matters of faith and practice. This includes the doctrine and gift of prophets/prophecy.

    Sister White herself has said:

    "... A familiar acquaintance with the Scriptures sharpens the discerning powers, and fortifies the soul against the attacks of Satan. The Bible is the sword of the Spirit, which will never fail to vanquish the adversary. It is the only true guide in all matters of faith and practice. The reason why Satan has so great control over the minds and hearts of men, is that they have not made the word of God the man of their counsel, and all their ways have not been tried by the true test. The Bible will show us what course we must pursue to become heirs of glory. Says the psalmist, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." But this is not the case when it is left unopened and unread. {RH, January 4, 1881 par. 27} ..." - sister White, January 4th, 1881, Literary Societies.

    The issue between us then isn't Sola scriptura. It is rather instead the matter of the gift of prophet/prophecy.

    Sounds fine.

    Indeed, since to not accept a tested and proven (by scripture) prophet, is to reject God's message, not the messanger. For instance, to reject Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Paul (as some do today), reject not these men, but God.

    Sounds good. Daniel's written material speak with the same authority. Or pick any prophet mentioned in scripture, even if their material isn't written as a book of scripture, is just as authoritative, since it comes from God in ambassage.

    All prophetic material, and the authority thereof, must be tested and proven by scripture, including sister White.

    For instance, Jeremiah had to be tested by Isaiah, tested by Samuel, tested by Moses, tested by the Law of God. Daniel had to be tested by Jeremiah ... unto the Law of God. Sister White is no exception, neither were those before her.

    In actual effect, they don't. Then the question might come, why then sister White? It is because people don't study their bibles and live according to that which is therein, so God sends a messenger to call persons back to the word (repent, as Jeremiah, etc), and when God is about to move (such as in the case of Jesus being born), God sends prophets to call people back to the prophecies that they might awaken to the nearness of the time and event happening. There are other things, such as correcting wrongs, revealing the sins of the people, unifying the people, and keeping the people safe from enemies without and from within, as Elijah, etc. Also, prophecy itself foretold that such a person would be in the last days, Revelation 10.
     
  9. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    I place my faith in God's preserved word (which in my case, is the English of the KJB).

    I was referring to the lunatic ideology that a person cannot understand God's word in plain English (KJB) unless we all have so many years experience in Hebrew, Syriac and Koine Greek (Latin, etc). Thus I have cited the transltors of the KJB, in their own thorough and wide experience in mutilple languages, schooling and theology, and in spirituality of the highest standards.

    I place my faith in God (Psalms 12:6-7, etc), who worked through all those godly men, including the whole church which was included in Rule 11-12 of translation.

    The entire point of my responses, was to point out the foolishness of a single person claiming that I (we) must have knowledge of dead languages, when their own ability is unproven (and they have yet to do so, and the offer still exists), and which persons cited have more accomplishment than the single individual claiming something of themselves and the foolishness of the idea that a translation into another language is inferior to an original language. The translators of the Bible never had any such foolish idea. I even provided evidence internally in scripture (Joseph and Jesus, Luke and Paul, etc) for this.

    Consider for a moment that I am speaking/writing to you in English, and then to consider a translation of this very response into (let's say) Spanish, is somehow inferior to the original English. It's ignorant of how langauge works, and ignorance of scripture even from the events of the Tower of Babel.
     
  10. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    First of all, the theology I have expounded is that of scripture (which happens to be what I and the Seventh-day Adventists believe, teach, practice) Secondly, What are you doing in this thread then? It seems you are able to respond in general, though not in specifics.

    Please be more specific. When you say "NONE of the events" that I have "posted have taken place yet", is not very clear and is rather vague. I listed Daniel 2, 7, 8, 10-12, Revelation 6, etc.

    Surely, you acknowledge that events in Daniel 2, 7 etc have indeed taken place, as you have indicated even from Daniel 9.

    That's your assertion. That is not evidence which counters anything which was provided from scripture which demonstrates there is.

    Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    These two texts exist (in context) after the 4th Beast's (Rome) division (ten horns and little horn (Papal Rome); Daniel 7:8), and before the destruction of it:

    Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    This is repeated (in context) in Daniel 7:22:

    Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    [1] Until (refers back to Daniel 7:21, and the 1,260)
    [2] the Ancient of Days came (this is the Father, moving from Holy Place, Revelation 4-5, into the Most Holy Place in the Heavenly sanctuary, Revelation 3: 7-8), and is a repetition of vs 9-10, in which the Father moves into place and sits upon a throne, and then is surrounded by all the angels, and the books of record are opened and searched by the angels (investigated), to see who is therein, Daniel 12:1 ("... delivered every one that shall be found written in the book.")
    [3] judgment was given to the saints of the most high (this refers to the 1,000 years, Revelation 20:4; 1 Corinthians 6:2,3; Psalms 149:1-9)
    [4] and the time (1,000 years over) came that the saints possessed the kingdom (new Heavens and Newearth, Exodus 20:12, etc).

    All of this ties to Revelation 9:15, 10:1-11, 14:6-7.

    No. Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-8. You have provided a complete mis-representation of officially (in print) Seventh-day Adventist doctrine. It is very clear. We deny it every time, and all the opposition has, is their own words. In otherwords, you didn't cite us, you cited "you" and claimed it was "us".

    The Book of life is for those who have called upon the name of the LORD. The searching of this book (by angels) is to determine whose proclamation was genuine.

    You believe in the error of OSAS. Yet that we deny OSAS, is not demonstrative that we as Seventh-day Adventist, believe, teach, etc salvation by works. We are saved by grace through faith ... (write this down, it's important as to what we believe and teach and anything else you want to include after it that we some how don't, please leave it out - it is not true).

    We don't teach that salvation is merited/earned by any amount of works (a person on death row, under death penalty, cannot do any amount of works to pay the price, except to die). Salvation (eternal life) is not "merited/earned" by human works.

    Now to the matter of losing salvation, is another matter. This comes after a person knows Jesus Christ, called upon His name, having been filled with the Holy Ghost and yet at some point leaves, or grieves away the Holy Ghost. Several scriptures have been given to you (King Saul, Ananias & sapphira, etc), and those texts which you provided do not counter those examples, but instead support the "condition" of salvation by having modifiers such as "believeth", "unto", etc.

    Keeping the commandments of God happen in salvation. Not keeping the commandments of God happen in rebellion.

    Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Again, Salvation is not a rape or forced concubinage, it is a marriage relationship.

    This is again 'your word' against the evidence provided from scripture. This is not evidence in support of 'your 'word', neither evidence against the scripture provided.

    Sunday worship does not result in the 'Mark of the Beast'. That is a misrepresentation.

    First we must identify "the Beast", then what it's "Mark" is and then how it is enforced in scripture. "One" thing at a time, eh?

    Actually it was AD 1843 first (perhaps you might consider reading the history, I could recommend several books on it). Br. Miller was incorrect on several things, including the single point of Jesus' return, based upon his misunderstanding of the cleansing of the sanctuary. That does not make him incorrect on everything, it simeply makes him mistaken upon that point, or others proven to be incorrect. He was not the only one saying it either, look up Joseph Wolff, etc.

    I will accept br. Miller's godliness over yours, or any on this forum, including myself.

    Br. Miller was incorrect upon that point (which was foretold in Revelation 10 btw). I do not support (neither any Seventh-day Adventist true to the name given by God) that Jesus was to return to the earth in 1843/4.

    The disciples were in error in their understanding of Jesus' triumphal entry.

    Abraham was in error in his understanding of God's promise of a child.

    etc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  11. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    So I can see that you are actually correcting the mistakes you are making in what Seventh-day Adventists teach and believe by reading original material or first hand material from a Seventh-day Adventist such as myself.

    False is indeed false (and time does not ever sanctify error), but presently you have not evidenced that what I have shared is false. So far, you are merely saying it, not actually evidencing the claim.

    And from reading your responses, you have not rightly represented what I have stated (in matters of AD 27, AD 31, the baptism of Jesus, the 70 weeks, etc), or what Seventh-day Adventists (not my self) have said and taught, including sister White (and many others, like Joseph Bates).

    Therefore, in order to factually say that what I have shared is false,

    [1] you are going to have to actually read what I have shared, or have someone read it to you
    [2] you are going to have to actually read original Seventh-day Adventist (of Adventist, or Millerite, etc) documents
    [3] you are going to have to demonstrate the claim you have made evidentially by scripture, & history, and not merely 'your words'
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  12. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Cheerleading?
     
  13. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Where???, and I will show you how you were shown to be incorrect after it.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. My and br. BobRyan's foundation is Jesus Christ and His preserved word:

    1Co_3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    I accept br. Miller as a man used of God (Revelation 10), and I accept sister White as messenger of the LORD and much more than a prophet (like John the Baptist, and which includes office of prophet). I also accept many other godly persons, such as br. James White (husband of sister White), br. Joseph Bates, br. M. L. Andreasen, etc., and yet I also accept br. Martin Luther, br. Philip Melanchthon, br. Calvin, br. John Knox, br. William Tyndale, br. John Wycliff, br. John Huss, br. George Wishart, brs. John and Charles Wesley, br. Jeremiah Davis, br. Dwayne Lemon, br. Moses Mason, br. Randy Skeete, br. Sam Gipp, sis. Gail Riplinger, br. David W. Daniels, etc, etc, etc. in those places where they are in harmony with scripture, and not in those places they are not.

    William Miller did not accept the 'investigative judgment'. He took some time to accept the '7th month movement' and Oct. 22 1844. He also never accepted the 7th day the sabbath of God (yet he will be in Heaven after the resurrection).

    I am going to say something that is absolutely factual and cannot be proven false in response to 'your words': The Bible says no such thing as "The Bible says that there is no such thing (investigative judgment)".

    I cannot wait for you to get to a specific point that we can begin to look at.

    Br. Miller and sister White neither say that the city of Rome is the antichrist.

    The man of sin is AntiChrist (2 Thessalonians 2:4; 1 John 4:2,3; 2 John 1:7, etc):

    "... The man of sin was to arise, and do his work of exaltation and blasphemy, before the brethren could look for the coming of Christ. That great event was to be preceded by a falling away. There would be revealed a form of Antichrist, and the leaven of apostasy was to work with increasing power to the end of time (RH July 31, 1888). ..." - sister White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 31, 1888.

    There are many "antichrists" as scripture says (Acts 20:28-30, 'overseers'; 1 John 2:18).

    "... Antichrist, meaning all who exalt themselves against the will and work of God, will at the appointed time feel the wrath of Him who gave Himself that they might not perish but have eternal life. All who persevere in obedience, all who will not sell their souls for money or for the favor of men, God will register in the book of life.-- Manuscript 9, 1900 ..." - sister White, MS 9, 1900

    Satan himself being the chief of them (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28. the "anointed" cherub).

    "... Christ is our example. The determination of Antichrist to carry out the rebellion he began in heaven will continue to work on the children of disobedience. Their envy and hatred against those who obey the fourth commandment will wax more and more bitter. But the people of God are not to hide their banner. They are not to ignore the commandments of God, and in order to have an easy time go with the multitude to do evil. They should be careful not to condemn their brethren in the faith who are steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord. . . . {3SM 401.1} ..." - sister White, 3rd Selected Messages, page 401.1

    For more, simply type in the word "antichrist" into the database here (I typed it for you) - Ellen G. White Writings

    The antiChrist is not 'a city'. AntiChrist is the position of persons (2 Thessalonians 2:4; see also so-called LXX Leviticus 6:22).

    Rome is a city (Revelation 17:18, 18:10,16,18,19,21).

    See my previous response (above). There is also the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) which also deals with spiritualism.

    God's preserved word itself does that:

    Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    See Hebrews 4 also: Hebrews 3-4 [KJB], the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD JEHOVAH - "my rest" "remaineth" to My people.

    The Bible does not say what you said. That is a fact. You are simply giving your words. That is not evidence, it is personal bias.

    See my previous response, and then turn to Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16; Isaiah 56:2-7; Acts 4:24, 14:15-16, 17:30; Exodus 20:11, etc.

    Scripture itself teaches this ["heavenly" not "earthly"].

    Where did Jesus ascend to? See Revelation 1 & 4. Seven Golden Candlesticks and "the door" open looking into the place with the Seven branch Candlestick (Holy Place). Then see Revelation 3:7-8, a "door" closed, and another "door opened" (Most Holy Place). Then see Leviticus 16 & 23 and Hebrews, Daniel and Revelation which show the two phases and the time prophecies pointing it out (Daniel 8:13,14,26, etc, Revelation 9:15, 10:6, 14:6-7, etc).

    Again, your words. I gave numerous scriptures and evidences, and even typology. I even gave the dates of the historical events in their context of prophecy. The very Advent movement itself was a sign (Revelation 10) and a type of this seen in the days of the Apostles with Jesus triumphal entry and death and burial.

    I never cited any of the people you listed on this event. I gave clear scripture, and more than Daniel 8:27 at that:
    The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

    Sorry, that is not congruent with the text itself, neither with Daniel 8:13,14,26; Revelation 9:15, 14:6-7; neither Hebrews 2:3; and is actually Jesuit Futurism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

    The 70 weeks are a smaller portion of the 2,300 day/years of Daniel 8:13,14,26. This is referred to in Daniel 9 itself.

    Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

    Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

    The very "vision" that Daniel did not fully understand in Daniel 8:

    Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

    Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

    Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

    Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

    Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

    Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

    Because Daniel could not take all of the information presented in Daniel 8, Gabriel came back in Daniel 9 (15 years later) to accomplish the mission given in Daniel 8 in regards the 2,300.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  14. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Indeed, Daniel did not at first understand all of the 2,300:

    Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

    Indeed, Gabriel was commanded:

    Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

    So when Daniel faints, and doesn't understand all of it, and Gabriel has to go back and wage battle against satan and he has to stil fulfill the command of God to make Daniel understand, and only gets another window some many years later in Daniel 9, when Daniel is seeking to understand.

    See my previous response. Vs 16 doesn't negate vs 27 or those texts in Daniel 9, speaking of the same "vision" and Gabriel even uses the word over and over again, "understand", "know".

    Indeed. That's what it means. See my responses to your next two statements:

    It is kinda like you never studied the words in Daniel 8 and Leviticus 16 & 23:

    The 'second' book of Daniel, Daniel 8-12, deals with the Temple/Sanctuary, and the texts therein are replete with such language.

    Daniel 8 is steeped in Sanctuary language, from the regular day to day service and the year end time service, the Day of Atonement, for it speaks about a “ram”, a “he-goat”, “four horns”, “the daily”, the “sanctuary”, the “prince of Princes” [High priest, Jesus Christ], the “host”, “saint”, “Gabriel” [the covering cherub who replaced Lucifer, who stands “in the presence of God” [Luke 1:19]], “transgression” [sin] and “cleansed”, and “truth” [Law, etc], and the 2,300 “evening and morning/s”, “many days”, and “time of the end”, “last end” and etc.

    In the sanctuary services [Psalms 77:13], the cleanse part has to do with the transition from the daily to the yearly [day of atonement] in type and antitype, even as Daniel 8 refers to in imagery [Ram [offering], He-goat [sin offering], Four Horns [as in the golden altar] for making atonement, in both place and people], see Leviticus 16:

    Leviticus 16:2,13,14,15 - mercy seat [and cherubim thereon]
    Leviticus 16:2-9,11-21,23-34 - High Priest, ministration
    Leviticus 16:3,5 - ram
    Leviticus 16:4,24,26,27,28,30 - washing/burning, thus cleansing
    Leviticus 16:5,7,8,15,24 - [Lord's] goat, sin offering
    Leviticus 16:5,9,10,15,16,21,27,30,34 - transgression
    Leviticus 16:5,6,7,15,16,17,19,20,21,22,23,24,26,27,28,29,30,31,33,34 - people of God, congregation, camp
    Leviticus 16:6,17,20 - atonement [so also Leviticus 23]
    Leviticus 16:12,13,18 - with four horns outside on altar of sacrifice and four horns inside golden altar of incense [Daniel 8:13-14,26, etc, Revelation 9:13-15]
    Leviticus 16:16,19,30,33 - uncleanness of persons and places, needing to be cleansed [vs 19, “cleanse”]
    Leviticus 16:34 - end of the daily [evening and morning], now the once in the year

    Thus what Daniel 8:14, reveals is the transition of Christ Jesus [Daniel 8:13, “certain saint”, the wonderful numberer, who numbers the hairs, stars, sands, kingdoms, times and boundaries, etc] in His Great High Priestly role, from one phase [antitypical daily] to another [antitypical yearly] in the Great Heavenly Sanctuary above, per Daniel, Matthew, Acts, Hebrews, Revelation, etc, and also deals with the peoples of that time afterward, in their own related cleansing. Thus sanctuary, and host.

    Daniel 8:1,4,6,7,20 - Ram
    Daniel 8:3,5,6,7,8,9,20,21 - horns [8, 4 outside [altar sacrifice], 4 inside [altar incense' -- 2 on ram, 1 on he-got, 4 on he-goat, 1 from winds]
    Daniel 8:5,8,21 - He Goat
    Daniel 8:10,13,24,25 - the holy people of God
    Daniel 8:11,13,14,25 - certain saint [High Priest Jesus]
    Daniel 8:12,13,14,24,25 - transgression
    Daniel 8:13,15-17 - one saint speaking, and another saint said - covering cherubims/angels [Gabriel and 'Herald']
    Daniel 8:11,12,13-14,26 - daily ongoing [evening and morning] and finally ended, yearly commenced
    Daniel 8:14 - cleansed

    more in Daniel 9-12 where the atonement is found, which is the re-explanation and expansion of Daniel 8.

    There are two sets of 'four horns' in Daniel 8.

    The first set of 'four':

    [1] “two horns” of the Ram
    [2] the “great” or “notable” “horn” of the He-goat
    [3] the “little horn” out of the four winds


    The second set of 'four':

    [1] the “four notable ones” that came out of the He-goat after the “great” or “notable” “horn”.

    There are 8 horns in the sanctuary service.

    [1] 4 horns on the altar of sacrifice [Exodus 27:2, 38:2]
    [2] 4 horns on the altar of incense [Exodus 30:2, 37:25,26]


    Feel free to see the structure of Revelation here - TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free

    You are citing "nonsda" (.org). even verbatim without giving citation (I always check such things, its a common habit of those uninterested in facts and have no actual knowledge of the material at hand). That's plagiarism and you simply regurgitated their misleading 'study' (which is nothing of the sort, it's simply throwing up a concordance). Please allow me to show you something from the actual scripture:

    Daniel 8:14 KJB - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    The word “cleansed” [Daniel 8:14 KJB] is found tied to the following words, in relationship to the sanctuary and of judgment:

    Consider that in Job 25:4 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “justified”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 4, as meaning, “be clean”, and even vs 5, refers to “pure”, referring to a case to be judged, as Job's.

    Consider that in Job 15:14 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “righteous”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 14, as meaning, “be clean”, and even in vs 15, refers to “saints” [holy], and “clean” again.

    Consider also that Psalms 51:4 KJB, utilizing the same word in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “justified”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 4, as meaning, “be clear when thou judgest” [ie. day of atonement, Leviticus 16 & 23:27-32 KJB, see also Revelation 9:13-15, 14:6-7 KJB], then read further in vs 7, of “clean” and “wash”.

    Consider that in Job 22:3 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “righteous”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 3, as meaning, “perfect”, and even in vs 4, refers to “judgment”.

    Consider that in Psalms 19:7-9 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “righteous”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in [vs7]: “perfect”, [vs 8]: “right”, “pure”, [vs 9]: “clean”, “judgments”, “righteous”.

    Etc, etc.
    for every time the underlying word, as found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, is used in scripture, it almost inevitably is connected with the same words in context, if not in the very same text itself, see [H6663], “צדק”, “tsâdaq” in the King James Concordance.

    Try actually doing your own study, and not simply copying misleading antiSDA materials. (PS. I thought you were unprepared to read lengthy material, such as the wind found on said website you plagiarized from).

    Presently, I have shown you do not know much at all in regards Seventh-day Adventist theology, and simply are getting info second hand, even from misleading or misrepresenting sources (nonSDA) and have not rightly understood the position on several occasions (70 weeks, AD 31, mark of the Beast, salvation, prophets, sola scriptura, etc).

    What you presently 'know' and written is mostly incorrect of which I had to correct.

    Again, these are your words, which is not actual evidence in favour of your position, nor evidence against the position I have demonstrated from scripture, history, etc.

    Continue? I am still looking for the "one" point you wanted to actually look at in detail from the scripture. Presently you have posted anti-SDA material, 'scholars', appealed to 'majority', misrepresented or misunderstood (I give you the benefit of ignorance) the material of myself, sister White, Seventh-day Adventists in general.

    My posts and material any may judge for themselves.

    If you want to leave, I will have evidence you were not serious, neither sincere in your offer to consider "one" point.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Hebrew is also a "high context" language so that "Son of Man" in Daniel 7 is Christ but in Ezek it is the prophet himself in Ezek 2
    Ezekiel 2:1 He said to me, “Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.”

    [/quote]

    Interesting that you make the false accusation - but never attempt to prove it while completely ignoring every detail in that discussion you are replying to.

    How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    hint: the answer to every Bible detail and detail in history is not "I don't like SDAs"...
     
  17. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    The Angel of the lord of the OT was indeed Jesus before His Incarnation, but He and Michael were and are 2 separate persons!
     
  18. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    We do not like how you elevate the false teaching and so called revelations of Ellen White to be equal to scriptures!
     
  19. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    The final 7 weeks have yet to be fulfilled, as those involve the time of the Second Coming itself!
     
  20. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    This shows us the the so called revelation EW received from God concerning the real meaning of Revelation was false!
    And if found false on this issue, then calls into question ALL of her revelations and doctrines!
     
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