The Prayers of the Royal Priesthood

[yeshuaslavejeff]

....

(I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but I would have trouble relying only on the charism given to the Apostles, as I tend to believe that was given to them and passed down by laying on of hands - but it is indeed a similar role.)

? 'disagreeable'

On the contrary, Wonderful ! I don't know what you mean by 'relying on the charism given to the Apostles'
but yes much spiritual was passed on thru laying on of hands (which is never to be taken lightly, as directed in Scripture),
and it has been decades since I was with disciples of Jesus in fellowships that practiced privately and publicly laying on of hands for passing on the blessings from Yahweh for administration in Yahweh's governmental working (besides the more common laying on of hands for healing).

They did not depend on 'charism' or anything unsubstantiated or unproven ,
instead relying strictly on God's Word directly as the standard.

I'm amazed still that this is not practiced much more widely in churches in the united states (or maybe it is, but I don't hear nor see of it often any more at all).

 

[~Anastasia~]

? 'disagreeable'

On the contrary, Wonderful ! I don't know what you mean by 'relying on the charism given to the Apostles'
but yes much spiritual was passed on thru laying on of hands (which is never to be taken lightly, as directed in Scripture),
and it has been decades since I was with disciples of Jesus in fellowships that practiced privately and publicly laying on of hands for passing on the blessings from Yahweh for administration in Yahweh's governmental working (besides the more common laying on of hands for healing).

They did not depend on 'charism' or anything unsubstantiated or unproven ,
instead relying strictly on God's Word directly as the standard.

I'm amazed still that this is not practiced much more widely in churches in the united states (or maybe it is, but I don't hear nor see of it often any more at all).

Hi ysl.

It's been a while since I wrote that post (my memory is short sometimes) ... but I THINK I was saying that I didn't believe this was something given only to the Apostles that then died out with them. Rather, they passed on gifts (charism) by laying on hands, and others likewise passed it along, like links in a continuing chain.

I have been part of a few different kinds of churches that believed in laying on of hands and praying. Including some who actually took it far too casually (I remember one of the leaders there would protect his children so people wouldn't lay hands on them).

And the Orthodox Church definitely practices this, and has since Apostolic times.

But a lady I know was sick and went to her church (a large, "important" church) asking to be anointed and prayed for by the elders, and they strongly refused her request as something they refused to do at all.

I do have one rather funny/interesting story.

There was a church I used to attend (rather famous church and pastor, part of a major "revival"). At the end of the service, they would pray for people all over the church. I always wanted that pastor to pray for me. I would stand and wait for him, but it always happened that he would turn and go in the other direction. Week after week I tried to get prayed for and it never happened. Then I had a brilliant idea! I noticed that he always left by the same door, and there would be people standing in the hallway. As he would go, he would put his hands on everyone's head and pray for people on his way out. So I decided to wait in the hall for him. There I was, waiting, crowds of people around, lots of excitement, and the pastor started coming down the hall, placing his hands on everyone's head and praying. I was finally going to get prayed for by this pastor! Then a funny thing happened. He came to me, and his hand was raised in the air. I was the only one standing in that spot, and his hand started to come down on me. Then it was like everything froze. Suddenly his expression - I know this is going to going to sound funny - but he honestly looked terrified. His hand froze in the air. Without touching me. That moment seem to last a long time. (But I'm sure it was very brief.) Then he just dropped his hand, turned, and went out another door, without speaking to or touching another person on the way out. I didn't know what had just happened, but I got the distinct impression that I had been protected from something. And to be honest I never went back to that church.

 

[Arsenios]

I'm amazed still that this (laying on of hands) is not practiced much more widely in churches...

In Orthodoxy it constitutes the blessing of the Church for Godly works - eg The Ordination of the Priesthood and elevations within their ranks, passing on to others what those who pass it on have received so freely from the Beginnings...

I have not heard much about Anointing lately either, which we do regularly, both for physical sickness and its healing, and unto Spiritual reconciliation in the angsts of living our lives in a fallen condition...

Both have been Sacraments (Mysteries) of the Church from the beginnings...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I do have one rather funny/interesting story.

There was a church I used to attend (rather famous church and pastor, part of a major "revival"). At the end of the service, they would pray for people all over the church. I always wanted that pastor to pray for me. I would stand and wait for him, but it always happened that he would turn and go in the other direction. Week after week I tried to get prayed for and it never happened. Then I had a brilliant idea! I noticed that he always left by the same door, and there would be people standing in the hallway. As he would go, he would put his hands on everyone's head and pray for people on his way out. So I decided to wait in the hall for him. There I was, waiting, crowds of people around, lots of excitement, and the pastor started coming down the hall, placing his hands on everyone's head and praying. I was finally going to get prayed for by this pastor! Then a funny thing happened. He came to me, and his hand was raised in the air. I was the only one standing in that spot, and his hand started to come down on me. Then it was like everything froze. Suddenly his expression - I know this is going to going to sound funny - but he honestly looked terrified. His hand froze in the air. Without touching me. That moment seem to last a long time. (But I'm sure it was very brief.) Then he just dropped his hand, turned, and went out another door, without speaking to or touching another person on the way out. I didn't know what had just happened, but I got the distinct impression that I had been protected from something. And to be honest I never went back to that church.

The part about that story that I loved - Indeed I laughed out loud - is where he turned from you in terror, and went out another door without touching another person... I had a similar thing happen at a funeral Mass in a Latin Church for a friend of mine... I walked up the Communion line, not to receive Communion, but for a simple blessing by the priest, who looked at me and panicked, then saw I was not there for Communion, and blessed me...

But I do not think you had been protected from something evil by his not laying his hands on you - But that pastor was... The demons know who is who, and they wanted no part of you, and fled the scene as if they had been scalded by holy water, dropping their facade... The mega-churches are setting up for great falls, I suspect... And I thank God we are here to hold the blessed ground they will abandon...

Great story...

Arsenios

 

[~Anastasia~]

The part about that story that I loved - Indeed I laughed out loud - is where he turned from you in terror, and went out another door without touching another person... I had a similar thing happen at a funeral Mass in a Latin Church for a friend of mine... I walked up the Communion line, not to receive Communion, but for a simple blessing by the priest, who looked at me and panicked, then saw I was not there for Communion, and blessed me...

But I do not think you had been protected from something evil by his not laying his hands on you - But that pastor was... The demons know who is who, and they wanted no part of you, and fled the scene as if they had been scalded by holy water, dropping their facade... The mega-churches are setting up for great falls, I suspect... And I thank God we are here to hold the blessed ground they will abandon...

Great story...

Arsenios

Hmmmm. Maybe so. I have always been at a loss of exactly how to process that event.

But it happened exactly as I told. And it is burned in my mind. His freezing, his look of terror, and for the first time ever that I know of his stopping all prayers and walking out - were a profound thing to me.

I never thought to myself that he could have had demons. I wouldn't know. But there was definitely some kind of war encounter/opposition going on.

I was a nobody you know. Still am. I was doing my best to follow God, by His grace, but I'm afraid I was even more flawed in my efforts back then than I am now, though I was more blind to that fact. If it is as you say, it was purely the mercy and grace of God - nothing in my own self.

Thanks for your perspective. I don't speak of it often but I want to understand things like this that happen to me.

God be with you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Actually, I was curious about what happened to that pastor/church/revival, since as I said I didn't go back. It didn't take so long to find some info.

The pastor resigned that same year. It doesn't say the month. But it was within months of the scenario I described.

 

[Arsenios]

The pastor resigned that same year. It doesn't say the month. But it was within months of the scenario I described.

I am not surprised at all - In the book
The Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Paisios: Dionysios Farasiotis ...
A young man went to India after encountering Elder Paisios, for the reason of "fairness" to Indian "spirituality" which he had embraced previously... He went there doing the Jesus Prayer in all the Ashrams, causing all manner of troubles for the local gurus, and one very dark and powerful young one, mid 30s I would guess by his picture, who tricked him into a spiritual capture, mentally imprisoning him so he could not get out of India... He finally cried out to the Elder as he remembered his advice not to go, and the Elder was in his hut talking to some pilgrims, and he turned from them and said: "Come out of him..." He did it three times, and the young man was released, and came home... And here is the part that is relevant - That dark guru died that same year... God uses His serrvants in the flesh from time to time unawares, and those servants come in any and all denominations, and you never know who is who... You sensed that pastor's evil, and he panicked and lost his post - A great blessing for him, and a clue for you, little ol' Mrs Nobody... "For Behold! He hath looked upon the lowliness of His hand-maiden..." (Remember?) The power is in the lowliness, and it moves from soul to soul... "For I AM meek and lowly..." So yes, Glory to God! And no, His servants can claim nothing... But they are THERE!

Arsenios

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well Glory to God.

I will only repeat I had nothing to do with it. I was foolishly looking for prayer from a man I shouldn't have been, is all I did. If God was willing to use that - then I am amazed and humbled. But trust me, I was doing nothing special. Indeed, I was quite foolish at the time. Thank God He kept me through those years in spite of myself.

Thank you for your post. I so love St. Paisios! To think such a one could even live so close in our time, when in general spirituality seems more difficult in the world than in centuries past.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

... The mega-churches are setting up for great falls, I suspect... And I thank God we are here to hold the blessed ground they will abandon...

Arsenios

Motives of proselytism is not conducive with the goals of this forum which is for spiritual formation and discipleship for all denominations. Denominational discussions have their own place on cf doncha think? Not to say that's what you were doing but there are many new people coming here that may see discussions of specific denominations as a sign that that is what we're about here. Maybe it should be a condition of the sign-in to leave demonination discussions at the door? Every other forum is about denominations but deeper fellowship has never allowed it and this new forum is also about edification for all.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Actually I just checked and it is in the SOP

Specific denominational or faith group beliefs that are related to Christian discipleship should be discussed in their appropriate Congregational group forums. This forum is focused on learning to be disciples of Christ and helping others on the same journey.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just FTR, this was a denominational church and pastor. But I haven't said which denomination.

As a general topic I would have thought laying on of hands and praying would be ok. Forgive me if I offend. I think I will step out of the convo though.

God be with you all.

 

[Arsenios]

Motives of proselytism
(are) not...
what you were doing ...

Thank-you...

But that said, I am doubtless in grave danger of being banished in this regard, because while I advise and pray for and care about persons here - And indeed this means every person I encounter here - I am only willing to do so AS an Eastern Orthodox Christian... For me, the witness of that love and caring for any person here IS my witness for this wonderful and ancient (dare I add pre-denominational?) Christian Faith... And IF for any reason THAT should mean that I am encouraging anyone to "turn East", as we sometimes call becoming an Eastern Orthodox Christian, then I will perhaps be guilty of "proselytism" as you charged... My Avatar alone announces and invites any and all who read what I write and find something worthwhile to see "where" it is coming from... It is a decidedly Patristic approach to all matters of the Faith of Christ...

And I will do that without hesitation, even should it cause my removal... I have been removed from Catholic Answers Forum for this exact reason, and from two other Christian forums for similar reasons... My motives are strictly those of the benefit and well-being of each person with whom I am corresponding... And there will be times when I encourage someone to visit an Orthodox Service... Not because I want to increase the girth of the belly of the Orthodox Faith, but because that action is seen by me to be the right thing for the benefit of that person... Those folks are precious few and far between...

So please forgive me if I was crowding the edges of "motives of prosetylism", as you set forth and then denied of me... I have no defense for your charge...

God bless you, Cassia...

Were you to ask me, I would send you a little box of Cassia Incense for the Feast of the Nativity of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ... A little Christmas present, as an atoning offering for my miscreance?!

Arsenios

ps
Just posting here is, for me, a witness for the Eastern Orthodox Faith...
I simply have no idea how to post as a disembodied(?) mind...
Discipleship, in all its forms, is only understood by me in Orthodox terms...

A.

 

[Arsenios]

Book of Hebrews
Heb 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men
is ordained for men in things pertaining to God,
that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Heb 5:1
πας γαρ αρχιερευς εξ ανθρωπων λαμβανομενος
υπερ ανθρωπων καθισταται τα προς τον θεον
ινα προσφερη δωρα τε και θυσιας υπερ αμαρτιων

The literal Greek reads:
For every arch-priest out of men being taken
Heb 5:10
Called of God an high priest
after the order of Melchisedec.

προσαγορευθεις υπο του θεου αρχιερευς
κατα την ταξιν Μελχισεδεκ
The Greek literally reads here:
Publicly proclaimed under God arch-priest.
Accordingly of the order Melchisedek

What this shows is a contrast between:

"out of men being taken"
vs
Publicly proclaimed under/by of God

This signifies two kinds of arch-priests - Those appointed by men, the Levitical Priesthood, vs those appointed by God, the Melchisedek priests...
The keyword here is προσαγορευθεις, which literally transliterated FOR MARKET -
These folks show up where they show up...

Christ sure did...
Dumbfounding the Scribes and the Pharisees at age 14...
Excoriating them as an adult...

As did all the Prophets...

They just arose - God-Appointed - Throughout Jewish history...
Most shamefully treated, abused and killed...
Their proof is their words and their penetration of hearts...
They show forth publically, in the agoras of their tribes,
the place of commerce and courts in open view...

As did Christ...

As did Paul perhaps?

The early Church of the first 1500 years of Christianity ALL had priests appointed by the Church, (initially by the Apostles)... These constitute the transformation of the Levitical Priesthood within the Ekklesia of Christ as the Priesthood of that Body... We must remember that the beginninngs of Christianity constituted a "legitimate" heresy of Judaism, and was recognizable as Jewish worship and services, but parallel, and not identical...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The priesthood of Melchizedek is more effective because it required a single sacrifice once and for all (Jesus), while the Levitical priesthood made endless sacrifices. (Hebrews 7:27) The Aaronic priests serve (or, rather, served) in an earthly copy and shadow of the heavenly Temple, which Jesus serves in. (Hebrews 8:5)

Each believer is of the kingdom of priests as Peter has said, also serves at the heavenly Temple in Christ's service. Christ has been publicly proclaimed by God as the high priest above all His adopted siblings. (Making Him not equal to us altho we are equal to each other) Those who serve at the earthly church could be or could be not a priest of the order of Melchisedec in their own standing.

(Hopefully they are believers in His finished work. iow, they believe He died, believe He rose to be ascended with the Father as His high priest) You were surprised at that when you first started looking into it and seemed to have never been taught about it? (I ask assuming that you will speak w/o naming denominations if you please)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Hebrews points, thru the whole book, that we’re to "consider Jesus" and “look to Him” to consider what God is so diligently trying to help us understand. Especially see Him as “our high priest”. Having an earthly pattern of the old priesthood makes it possible to even imagine what is meant.

Paul suffered being disinherited by the priesthood of his day but he ‘counted it all loss’ in order that ‘he might gain Christ’ that in that gain he came to know Jesus in a different way, the way that His death and resurrection brought Him to. That is, to the heavenly Temple to SERVE us in a special way. And for us to serve HIM.
Still today many Christians are being personally disinherited and socially excommunicated from their former lives. Their old patterns has been turned upside down. Like the first apostles who's old temple has been laid flat and outer assurance of being right with God was gone. I can imagine many new converts to Christianity feeling like that.

The message of Hebrews is “Don’t turn back” “Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus” Look closer because your not seeing clear enough. But don’t go back. Don’t you see what’s really important?” Since we have such a great high priest who has passed thru the heavens , Jesus Christ the Son of God, let’s hold fast our confession. For we don’t have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses., but one who in every respect has been tempted just like we are, yet without sin.

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace in our time of need. to help. For He is able to to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God thru Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Because He is our high priest and He has made a better way.

 

[Arsenios]

You were surprised at that when you first started looking into it and seemed to have never been taught about it? (I ask assuming that you will speak w/o naming denominations if you please)

Forgive me, I was unable to follow this question...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Hebrews points, thru the whole book, that we’re to "consider Jesus" and “look to Him” to consider what God is so diligently trying to help us understand. Especially see Him as “our high priest”. Having an earthly pattern of the old priesthood makes it possible to even imagine what is meant.

Paul suffered being disinherited by the priesthood of his day but he ‘counted it all loss’ in order that ‘he might gain Christ’ that in that gain he came to know Jesus in a different way, the way that His death and resurrection brought Him to. That is, to the heavenly Temple to SERVE us in a special way. And for us to serve HIM.
Still today many Christians are being personally disinherited and socially excommunicated from their former lives. Their old patterns has been turned upside down. Like the first apostles who's old temple has been laid flat and outer assurance of being right with God was gone. I can imagine many new converts to Christianity feeling like that.

The message of Hebrews is “Don’t turn back” “Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus” Look closer because your not seeing clear enough. But don’t go back. Don’t you see what’s really important?” Since we have such a great high priest who has passed thru the heavens , Jesus Christ the Son of God, let’s hold fast our confession. For we don’t have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses., but one who in every respect has been tempted just like we are, yet without sin.

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace in our time of need. to help. For He is able to to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God thru Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Because He is our high priest and He has made a better way.

Thank you for this cogent post.

The 'outer temple of assurrance of being right' had indeed been laid flat - eg Salvation had been squandered by the Jews, because of their sins... ANY outer temple - eg Any worldly temple, suffers the same fate - see, eg, the 7 Churches of Revelation - The Lampstand that Christ promises to pull from them - if they do not amend their ways by the repentance that overcomes their sins - is the Church itself - in those places that turn away from the Grace that the Church, the Body of Christ, is being given there...

Hence, this 'outer temple of assurrance of being right', is now and always has been a chimera - Being right meaning the preaching of correct doctrine fails... It is the Pharisee's error... Being right in the 'keeping of the law' also fails, for it strains the gnat while swallowing the camel... Making one's self better than one's neighbor fails due to its unavoidable pride... The ONLY criteria that avails God is repentance... Hence the Gospel consistently preached by John the Baptist, Christ Himself, the Apostle Peter, and by ALL the Apostolic Churches of the first thousand years of Christianity is this:

Repent and be Baptized...
For...
The Kingdom of Heaven...
Is at hand (here and now)

"Be ye perfect" means be fully committed to your own repentance...
Not looking to the repentance of others...
And in that one will succeed...
In God's time...
Only judging one's self...
Forgiving all...

Blessed be the Season of the Birth of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Hebrews points, thru the whole book, that we’re to "consider Jesus" and “look to Him” to consider what God is so diligently trying to help us understand. Especially see Him as “our high priest”. Having an earthly pattern of the old priesthood makes it possible to even imagine what is meant... (eg - "to consider Jesus" and "to look to Him")

This is indeed what the Church is to disciple to the faithful... That which God is so diligently trying to help us to understand, or even to imagine... And HOW does She do so?

Gal_4:2 But (we are) under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

It is the Church that teaches us all that Christ commanded His Apostles to be exactly observing...

Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, He became the Author of eternal Salvation...
Unto all them that obey Him;

So we learn this obedience to Him Who is the Author of Salvation by this:

Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:
for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account,
that they may do it with joy, and not with grief:
for that is unprofitable for you.

Obedience is the key, learning to obey God by the very excellent means of obeying magistrates [etc] in the world, and in the Church by obeying them that HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and by SUBMITTING ONE'S SELF to them who watch over your souls and must give account... Obedience to God is discipled by obedience in the world, as much as can be obeyed there, and in the Church by learning obedience to those appointed over us, and only then, by obedience to God...

Obedience is not understood apart from being obedient...
Which is why I agree with you when you write:
"God is so diligently trying to help us understand."

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Thank you but one verse to support your view of the authority of teachers over anyone but students of the letter of the law compared against multiple applications of verses from the old and new testaments of moving on to maturity and becoming teachers themselves into the new spirit of the law where the True Teacher is does not proof make. Tutorship in the meaning of the substance thru teachings of the shadow w/o a move toward the substance away from the shadow is just staying in law w/o a move to grace. ( The very thing that Hebrews is warning against ) But thank you for the discussion nonetheless. Merry Christmas and may God be with you.

 

[Arsenios]

Thank you but one verse to support your view of the authority of teachers over anyone but students of the letter of the law compared against multiple applications of verses from the old and new testaments of moving on to maturity and becoming teachers themselves into the new spirit of the law where the True Teacher is does not proof make. Tutorship in the meaning of the substance thru teachings of the shadow w/o a move toward the substance away from the shadow is just staying in law w/o a move to grace. ( The very thing that Hebrews is warning against )

Proving the Faith of Christ is almost oxymoronic, yet the proof is within one's soul and heart, within one's very body... It can never be proven to another, but it CAN be discipled...

The question is: What IS Salvation? eg - What IS the Marriage of the Lamb? eg What IS knowing Christ that IS Life Eternal?

And the answer is UNION with God...

And for this cause Christ gave the discipling of the Nations to His Apostles whom He hd discipled... And this, if I am understanding you aright, you are reducing to "the authority of teachers"? Indeed, in the Ancient Faith, it had (and has) nothing to do with the authority of the teacher and everything with the penitent seeking direction from one who has knowledge by having walked the talk of discipleship as authored by Christ... Union with Christ comes through obedience to Christ, which is discipled by willful denial of self and the taking up of one's own cross... Tutorship in meanings is not self denial... Paul knew only Christ, and Him crucified... That was his discipling... He showed how the Life in Christ is to be lived and told his disciples to imitate him as he is imitating Christ...

Now the Marriage of the Lamb in a person is through his obedience to Christ through his denial of self and his entry into suffering on the narrow and straited Way... Indeed, the original early Christians called themselves the "Followers of the Way"... It was not until Paul discipled the followers of Christ that winter in Antioch that they first began to call themselves Christians... The taking up of one's cross is the Way of Suffering, and Paul preached this as looking to Christ, and Him Crucified, and we following Him...

The preaching of Christ Crucified is the preaching of suffering, and is well known as askesis, the living of an ascetic life of self denial... These days nobody wants to suffer - We are like young millennials who all want a job and a paycheck, but don't want to have to have to work all that much, or even show up on time... The Way of Christ is a God-Quest of suffering for our Lord... It is arduous and kind and loving and worthwhile... It takes a long time, and many fail, for the cost of discipleship is not cheap... It is a contest against demonic powers and principalities day after day after day, and the Church is the Hospital that administers the cures with the medicines of immortality which comprise repentance - It is a discipling of askesis and self denial... As David writes:
Psalm 132:4 I will not give sleep to mine eyes, nor slumber to mine eyelids...
And why this? Until i find a place (within me) for the Lord my God...

If one does not understand Christianity as a God-Quest, one does not understand Christianity...

Arsenios