The Prayers of the Royal Priesthood

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The literal meaning of 7:14 is that our High Priest came out of a tribe which had no priests, and that, I submit to you, is an identifier of the Melchizedekian Priesthood. It does not imply a transfer of the priesthood, but a validation of Christ's Priesthood according to Melchizedek... The Levitical Priesthood was of the tribe of Levi. The fact that Christ came out of Judah, which never had a priest serving at the altar, does not mean that the Levitical Priesthood was dismissed, but instead means that He is not from/of - eg is not beneath - the Levites, but as Melchizedek blessed the lesser, Abraham, so also is Christ over the lesser, the Levitical...

But the major premise you are putting foreward would seem to be at odds with the fact that Christ brought the heavenly kingdom to earth, but did not place the earthly kingdom under it to be ruled by the heavenly kingdom of priests... eg It did not inaugurate any "combined priesthood and kingship" like Melchizedek...

Perhaps we should take a look at what the "Order of Melchizedek" means?
eg What are its features?

Arsenios

Nothing was said about anyone ruling over any other priesthood. Surely your not saying that each and everyone of us should not be a disciple of Christ, because fellowship for His Son is the intention of the Father 1 Corinthians 1:9

Anyway, looking at

what the "Order of Melchizedek" means?
eg What are its features?

I'll post an except from a thread on Hebrews from a few years ago

Heb 7:25 (speaking of Jesus the Christ)
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.​

Verse 19 Christ on our behalf, 'enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain' That refers to the Holy of Holies which represents the very Presence of God. OT/OC only the high priest of the Aaronic order could go into there and only once a year to represent the people. The people were not afforded entrance into there. But Jesus as Christ went in as High Priest and opened a direct access to God for us. No longer is there any requirement for a human intermediary. Christ confered the privilege of sacred priesthood on all believers.

What the writer wants to convey is that Christ is a high priest of a new and different order than what existed before. Different from the religious system of the Levites and in the order of Melchizedek. (Gen 14:18-20) The superiority is deliniated by Abraham's payment of tythes to him. Melchizedek was a prototype of Christ's priesthood.

Having no beginning and no end he symbolized the eternal priesthood of christ. His is a perpetual priesthood. No record of parents would disqualify Levitical priesthood. Human pedigree was not the qualifyer for Christ either.

King of righteousness and king of peace. Those are the qualifyers. Those are the qualities of the Kingdom that He will usher in. He is our prophet and He is our priest. Soon He will return to take the crown.

As priest, His function now is interceeder. His atoning sacrifice has been accomplished and now He administers the benifits to us from the throne of grace.

~Search the Scriptures~ Letter to the Hebrews

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Christ's sacrifice ratifies the new covenant based upon better promises.

The Aaronic priesthood being abrogated (treated as nonexistant) was making room for the original priesthood that proceeded it, the order of Melchisedec. This made it necessary to change also the law and abolish all it's sacrificial offerings which could not bring perfection. The new order also reconciled mankind to God, making them holy and taking away sins. He offered His body- the one that God prepared for him to offer as a sacrifice for all mankind

Since it was His body that died for sin, it was necessary for the same body to be resurrected and ascended into heaven to represent mankind. This is what is stated in Verse 25 He liveth forever. Thus by His eternal intersession and presentation of His resurrected humanity before God He represents mankind in heaven and makes it possible for God to justify mankind who meet His terms.
(John 3:16; Romans 3:21-26; Hebrews 10:9-10)

The keyword is 'making perfect' (v 11,19) which is God's intent for mankind. The priesthood is still the method that we see Christ working in, but the Levitical priesthood was not capable of accomplishing God's task. Our High Priest first accomplished perfection in Himself by perfect obedience to the Father, thereby becoming the perfect sacrifice. Now a New Covenant is needed to bring about perfection for us. The book of Romans reads very much like a courtcase with the sinner on trial and the redeemer sets him free. Here we see Christ's case being presented in the book of Hebrews to show what He produces in mankind.

The 'law' said Levites must be priests, so to change priests is to change law so that Christ is able to serve in that capacity. He was not of 'that tribe'. The greatest proof of that change is in the prophesy that another priest is to arise in the order of Melchesedec (Psalms 110:4) making it evident that the old Levitical law has been abrogated. His appointment is based not on temporary service but on the power of an endless life.

Sacrifices were to be made daily with killing of animals for the person to walk away forgiven. There was no end to sacrifices according to that system. If they could have made the people perfect then they would not have had to cease. So a better hope is introduced, thru which we draw near to God (v19) The hope is now in Christ, not on sacrifices made. Christ's appointment was confirmed with an oath from God, something the old priests did not have.

The divorce is now in place due to the DEAD NATURE of the rituals and betrothed to the great hope to the LIVING WORD.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

We're told early on in Hebrews that the laying on of hands is of the elementary teachings and should be moved beyond.

 

[Arsenios]

The 'law' said Levites must be priests,

Yes... The Mosaic Law designated the Levites as (imperfect) priests

so to change priests is to change law...

Yes - I love your logical progression! The Law indeed was wrested from the Levites...

Because Christ fulfilled the Law -

They were no longer needed... And the great change in the Law was indeed this bypassing of the Law, and handing the tutoring which the Law had provided over to the tutoring of Christ Himself Who had fulfilled the Law...

so that Christ is able to serve in that capacity.

So the question then becomes: "How, after His Ascension, does the Lord in Heaven serve in the tutorial capacity of the Law of Moses which He fulfilled in Himself, in His Own Body?" Paul writes of us, who are disciples of Christ, that when we are young, (in years or in Christ, I should think), we are the same as slaves...

Gal 4:1
Now I say that the heir,
as long as he is a child,
differeth nothing from a servant,
though he be lord of all;

So that when we first start out, we need to be slaves (servants, douloi), being told what to think and what to do... And indeed, it was the Levites who prepared Israel for Christ, and all the Israelites who followed Christ had been tutored by the Levites in preparation for Christ... So that now, the new [changed] priesthood, which IS Christ, has the task of tutoring the immature into maturity in Christ...

No small matter!

And this Christ plainly instructs:

Going forth accordingly
Be ye discipling all the peoples
Baptizing them in the Name
Of the Father and of the Son
And of the Holy Spirit

And He goes on:

Teaching them to be carefully observing
all, as much as I have commanded you

When you give bread to a starving man, you do so with your body, and when you teach a child, you do so also with your body, and when Christ walked the earth, He did so with His body, and when He disciples us now, He does so with His Body, the Church, for which Paul suffered greatly in His great love for Christ. So that following His departure from this earth, He left upon it His Holy Body, the Ekklesia, and instructed them to go forth and disciple all the nations baptizing them and instructing them in word and deed, and this they did...

When the very Body of Christ disciples you, it is Christ discipling you...
The Levitical Priesthood has been supplanted with the Priesthood of Christ...
ALL Apostolic Churches have this priesthood in ALL places on earth...

He was not of 'that tribe'. The greatest proof of that change is in the prophesy that another priest is to arise in the order of Melchesedec (Psalms 110:4) making it evident that the old Levitical law has been abrogated. His appointment is based not on temporary service but on the power of an endless life.

I am gladdened that you see the Psalms of David as Prophetic...

THE Lord [God the Father] said to MY Lord [Christ our God],
You are a Priest unto the ages
According to the Order of Melchisedek

This Order of Priests is above that of the Levites...

I still want to take a look at what differentiates the Melchisedekian from the Levitical Priesthoods...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

We're told early on in Hebrews that the laying on of hands is of the elementary teachings and should be moved beyond.

Elementary means Foundational...

Without the fundamentals, there is no perfection...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Would you say that prayer means to get on God's wavelength instead of the wavelength of the world? The Aramaic of prayer is 'slotha' meaning to 'focus' or 'to adjust' or 'tune into'. Reconciliation is about bringing into balance the standards that are set by God accomplished thru prayer and thru the door Jesus opened to God. Is that propitiation or God set free to act on our behalf because of alignment to 'His wavelength' of being a part Christ's redemption? Is that the way to discipleship iyo?
We now know that martyrdom leading to discipleship is no longer considered the road to discipleship but what has replaced that belief?

 

[Arsenios]

Would you say that prayer means to get on God's wavelength instead of the wavelength of the world? The Aramaic of prayer is 'slotha' meaning to 'focus' or 'to adjust' or 'tune into'. Reconciliation is about bringing into balance the standards that are set by God accomplished thru prayer and thru the door Jesus opened to God. Is that propitiation or God set free to act on our behalf because of alignment to 'His wavelength' of being a part Christ's redemption? Is that the way to discipleship iyo?
We now know that martyrdom leading to discipleship is no longer considered the road to discipleship but what has replaced that belief?

The way to discipleship is to enter into the discipline of the Church, the Body of Christ, in the discipleship of prayer and fasting and services and alms as they are assigned by Christ through the hands of His Body, the Church, Whose Head He is...

Forget "wavelength", either of God or of the world... We need God, not the world, and there is nothing we can do to get God's "wavelength" - Indeed there is nothing we can even know about it, even IF it exists, because we are created and God is uncreated... We cannot enter into union with God by anything we do, or are even capable of doing... The key to Salvation is that it is GIVEN to us by God - We are saved by Grace through the Faith (eg The Faith of Jesus Christ Who discipled it to His Apostles), and that (eg Salvation) not of ourselves. Of God the Gift...

Discipleship IS martyrdom... Normally lived privately, invisible to the world... A turning away from the world and unto God in prayer and fasting and obedience to the Church - Willful and voluntary obedience - Not at all authoritarian and imposed in any way... That is the Orthodox Way... Slowly through repentance the death of the self to itself and the world, in the Love of God for all His creation, as He loves it... And in this Way we prepare ourselves unto purity of heart through the Grace of God in the Praxis of the Faith for the encounter with the Living God that will find us prepared as were the 5 Wise Virgins with oil for their lamps who were admitted unexpectedly at midnight into the Bridal Chamber of the Lord when He knocked...

Discipleship is the forsaking of self and the world for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven...

These days it is not all that commonly seen...

You never know when it will show up...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think of God's wavelength to be an apt description tbh. ``Our Father`` delineates us perfectly because in that we proclaim and confess our union with God and other disciples as well as admitting our own place in the family of God. Aligning with His Name as Holy gives admittance into that program for His Family as being set apart in purpose for enlightenment, set apart from that which is unholy or uses God`s Name in vain. The ideal given to Israel was that they would be a distinct model to other nations of a people led in all matters social and political.

But mainly the `wavelength`I refer to is the mindset of knowing Who it is that you are coming to in prayer. Prayer addresses ABBA! That alone evokes a healing in reality that is divisionless because it returns all coming to Him as a child.
That is the wavelength of `` Our Father`` Whether we choose to admit it or not could be instrumental ...

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The way to discipleship is to enter into the discipline of the Church, the Body of Christ, in the discipleship of prayer and fasting and services and alms as they are assigned by Christ through the hands of His Body, the Church, Whose Head He is...

Forget "wavelength", either of God or of the world... We need God, not the world, and there is nothing we can do to get God's "wavelength" - Indeed there is nothing we can even know about it, even IF it exists, because we are created and God is uncreated... We cannot enter into union with God by anything we do, or are even capable of doing... The key to Salvation is that it is GIVEN to us by God - We are saved by Grace through the Faith (eg The Faith of Jesus Christ Who discipled it to His Apostles), and that (eg Salvation) not of ourselves. Of God the Gift...

Discipleship IS martyrdom... Normally lived privately, invisible to the world... A turning away from the world and unto God in prayer and fasting and obedience to the Church - Willful and voluntary obedience - Not at all authoritarian and imposed in any way... That is the Orthodox Way... Slowly through repentance the death of the self to itself and the world, in the Love of God for all His creation, as He loves it... And in this Way we prepare ourselves unto purity of heart through the Grace of God in the Praxis of the Faith for the encounter with the Living God that will find us prepared as were the 5 Wise Virgins with oil for their lamps who were admitted unexpectedly at midnight into the Bridal Chamber of the Lord when He knocked...

Discipleship is the forsaking of self and the world for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven...

These days it is not all that commonly seen...

You never know when it will show up...

Arsenios

Ignatius, in Letter to the Magnesians, chapter 7

In the same way as the Lord was wholly one with the Father, and never acted independently of him, either in person or through the apostles, so you yourselves must, never act independently of your bishop and clergy.​

Was that not, in fact, written into the law of the early church? I have found many instances of reasoning that Ignatious' words to be the starting point of Christian teaching

Do you consider John the Apostle heretical? He taught Ignatius whose writings to the Churches are preserved for us. He wrote them on his way to martydom, where he was torn apart by the wild beasts.

Not acting independently of your bishop’ is a common thread through several of Ignatius’ letters. It would be interesting to know to what level of minutiae this applied, and the extent to which it echoed the ‘heavy shepherding’ of some restorationist churches in recent history. It certainly contrasts to some other letters of the post-Apostolic period (notably those of Clement and Polycarp) who, whilst emphasising deference to local church leaders, tend primarily to see submission as mutual (submission to each other within the church).

‘Discipleship’ in the Letters of Ignatius of Antioch

 

[Arsenios]

(The) `wavelength`I refer to is the mindset of knowing Who it is that you are coming to in prayer. Prayer addresses ABBA! That alone evokes a healing in reality that is divisionless because it returns all coming to Him as a child.
That is the wavelength of `` Our Father`` Whether we choose to admit it or not could be instrumental ...

If simple and profound mindfulness of the 'to Whom' you are addressing in prayer to God is what you mean by "wave-length", I can ony agree...

I had a more jaded misapprehension...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Ignatius, in Letter to the Magnesians, chapter 7

In the same way as the Lord was wholly one with the Father, and never acted independently of him, either in person or through the apostles, so you yourselves must, never act independently of your bishop and clergy.​

​

That letter was written to his Church of which he was an Episkopos (Bishop) and to other members of the Church who were being discipled by the Church... That is the way of discipleship within the Body of Christ... There are profound reasons for this...

Was that not, in fact, written into the law of the early church? I have found many instances of reasoning that Ignatious' words to be the starting point of Christian teaching

He was but stating what he had been discipled and had mastered... The Church had been so discipling Her disciples from Pentecost in this same teaching... Nothing was deduced - It had all been revealed both by Christ and by the Holy Spirit AFTER Pentecost... There are some things that can only be apprehended by the DOING of them, which prior to that Pentecost's giving of the Holy Spirit in Power the Disciples of the Lord did not have the strength to learn... (Please re-read that sentence...)

Not acting independently of your bishop’ is a common thread through several of Ignatius’ letters. It would be interesting to know to what level of minutiae this applied, and the extent to which it echoed the ‘heavy shepherding’ of some restorationist churches in recent history. It certainly contrasts to some other letters of the post-Apostolic period (notably those of Clement and Polycarp) who, whilst emphasising deference to local church leaders, tend primarily to see submission as mutual (submission to each other within the church).

The level of obedience it primarily voluntary - A point I fear lost in recent attempts... And it is undeertaken by mutual understanding of the penitent and his or her spiritual Father or Mother... It can be total, and it can be minimal... Mutual submission is the rule in all Church relations, unless someone is undertaking some special podvig for some reason... Many do...

So back to Melchisidek we find Paul completely outside the discipleship of the Church, and acting from direct revelation from God, even when interacting with the Apostles in Jurusalem so as to make sure he was not wandering way off the farm, so to speak... He was an Apostle ordained by God in Spirit... Unlike those clergy ordained by the laying on of hands... I am looking at the possibility that Paul may be in the Melchisidekian Priesthood... eg God-direct ordained, even though then entered into the Body of Christ in the normal way by being baptized at the hands of Ananias...

Arsenios

 

[anna ~ grace]

I was somehow surprised too when I read some writings about interceding for forgiveness for others. But I found other Scriptures where we are directly told to do so. Funny how some things don't sink in based on your viewpoint sometimes.

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. (1 John 15:16)

James 5:15 also alludes to this.
And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.


And it was established in the OT as a priestly role.
1 Sam 12:19
Then all the people said to Samuel, "Pray for your servants to the LORD your God, so that we may not die, for we have added to all our sins this evil by asking for ourselves a king."


There are more. But it had escaped me before and came as a surprise that we might pray for the sins of others.


(I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but I would have trouble relying only on the charism given to the Apostles, as I tend to believe that was given to them and passed down by laying on of hands - but it is indeed a similar role.)

Anastasia, I agree. I believe that this spiritual phenomenon is intrinsically linked to the Divine Mercy of God, and the role that Christians have in, through their faith and works and personal sacrifices, reconciling the world and sinners to God. I honestly have no idea how this works in the end, but other Scripture passages seem to hint at it.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

​

... I am looking at the possibility that Paul may be in the Melchisidekian Priesthood... eg God-direct ordained, even though then entered into the Body of Christ in the normal way by being baptized at the hands of Ananias...

Arsenios

Paul did have a Nazarite vow that he was being released from in Jerusalem from what can be gathered. That corresponds to Numbers 6:2 that is from the Nararite vow to the Nazarene that is our covenant with Him. Anyone can make that vow of consecration and Hes fine if its only for a bit or for longer or whatever. When Hannah prayed and vowed she coined the term anointed for the first time in the bible. Of course many dont like to be that spiritually disciplined but as to the spirit of the new testament we only have to reckon it to be true and it is!

 

[Arsenios]

I had a very long commute today, but it was more than enough time to listen to all ten of the podcasts in this Intercessory Prayer series - https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/series/intercessory_prayer_the_last_hope_for_the_world

https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/series/intercessory_prayer_the_last_hope_for_the_world

You need a job closer to home...

otoh -

It does give you personal alone time to listen to podcasts!

It was exactly on these prayers in the Great Litany.
Some insights I had never appreciated before.

Liturgy means common work - Literally! "LIT-" means common, as in all together - It is the common labor of the Ekklesia when they gather together to pray for each other, for the community, for the city and country and for the whole world... Prayer is a labor... The Services of the Faith are for its 'assembly' together... Those who are "called out" [literally Ekklesia] from the world gather together - while still in the world, but no longer are OF the world (in varying degrees) - to pray for ALL the world and those therein... For peaceful times, and seasonable weather, and an abundance of the fruit of the earth, etc... "-URGY" comes from URGOS, as in urgent and energy, and means work... In the Bible, it is used as a term that describes the Services of the Church - Jewish Services are also liturgical, and in the beginnings, the Christian Services were Jewish Services adapted to the historical fact of Christ's Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection and Ascension having occurred...

Glad you found that series on Ancient Faith Radio - Have you been listening to Fr. Thomas Hopko there too? He was enormously helpful for me in my efforts to understand this Orthodox Faith...

And yes, I am a convert - From atheism...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Paul did have a Nazarite vow that he was being released from in Jerusalem from what can be gathered. That corresponds to Numbers 6:2 that is from the Nararite vow to the Nazarene that is our covenant with Him. Anyone can make that vow of consecration and Hes fine if its only for a bit or for longer or whatever. When Hannah prayed and vowed she coined the term anointed for the first time in the bible. Of course many dont like to be that spiritually disciplined but as to the spirit of the new testament we only have to reckon it to be true and it is!

My great Scriptural weakness as a Christian is in the OT... So I read Numbers 6 - I confess, OK, that I had not read it - and I was struck by Christ's words: "Let the dead bury their own dead..." when His disciple sought to delay his "vow" to bury his father... (Matthew and Luke)

The 2000 year history of the Church argues against the idea that we only have to mentally reckon that the spirit of the New Testament is true without acting accordingly in order to make it true in us... This line of understanding is limited to imaginative affirmation, where the Christian history of discipleship for two thousand years affirms mortification of the flesh through self-denial and suffering...

And in Matthew and Luke, the young disciple is told to begin his labors immediately without burial of his father, which is forbidden by Numbers 6... And it is for man or woman without differentiation regarding the vow - The only stipultion is wholesale entry into the life of the vow for the term of its length... For the Christian, this is lifelong unto death, because in this death we find Life in Christ...

Arsenios

 

[~Anastasia~]

You need a job closer to home...

otoh -

It does give you personal alone time to listen to podcasts!



Liturgy means common work - Literally! "LIT-" means common, as in all together - It is the common labor of the Ekklesia when they gather together to pray for each other, for the community, for the city and country and for the whole world... Prayer is a labor... The Services of the Faith are for its 'assembly' together... Those who are "called out" [literally Ekklesia] from the world gather together - while still in the world, but no longer are OF the world (in varying degrees) - to pray for ALL the world and those therein... For peaceful times, and seasonable weather, and an abundance of the fruit of the earth, etc... "-URGY" comes from URGOS, as in urgent and energy, and means work... In the Bible, it is used as a term that describes the Services of the Church - Jewish Services are also liturgical, and in the beginnings, the Christian Services were Jewish Services adapted to the historical fact of Christ's Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection and Ascension having occurred...

Glad you found that series on Ancient Faith Radio - Have you been listening to Fr. Thomas Hopko there too? He was enormously helpful for me in my efforts to understand this Orthodox Faith...

And yes, I am a convert - From atheism...

Arsenios

I work all over two counties. It can be a challenge but allows me to arrange my schedule to attend Church including weekday liturgies and Bible studies. I really like that location because the children tend to be well-behaved, and they like me because I'm willing to travel so far lol. And yes, it's good for listening to podcasts.

I love the understanding of the Liturgy.

I have listened to Fr. Tom a little, but only on specific topics. There are a handful of others I got interested in listening to first, and some of it is so good I go back and listen over - enough to occupy a couple of years' time maybe lol. But I'd been meaning to go over his in more detail.

The one I posted is not a teacher I'm overly familiar with. It was just recently recommended to me.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

My great Scriptural weakness as a Christian is in the OT... So I read Numbers 6 - I confess, OK, that I had not read it - and I was struck by Christ's words: "Let the dead bury their own dead..." when His disciple sought to delay his "vow" to bury his father... (Matthew and Luke)

The 2000 year history of the Church argues against the idea that we only have to mentally reckon that the spirit of the New Testament is true without acting accordingly in order to make it true in us... This line of understanding is limited to imaginative affirmation, where the Christian history of discipleship for two thousand years affirms mortification of the flesh through self-denial and suffering...

And in Matthew and Luke, the young disciple is told to begin his labors immediately without burial of his father, which is forbidden by Numbers 6... And it is for man or woman without differentiation regarding the vow - The only stipultion is wholesale entry into the life of the vow for the term of its length... For the Christian, this is lifelong unto death, because in this death we find Life in Christ...

Arsenios

Reckoning isn't a technique but a spontaneous believing that's produced by seeing facts revealed. Seeing and believe the facts, recognizing them, and, according to the facts, reckon ourselves dead to sin and living to God. That's what I believe to be a consecration on the part of the person seeing the truth and believing it.

That's an objective move on the part of the believer. However the subjective, sanctification, which is what that vow is ( it's a sanctification vow that places both God and person in contract to each other that includes involvement of both. Consecration and sanctification.) God has the part of sanctifying us, we have the part of holding ourselves to the altar as a living sacrifice and that`s just our reasonable service.

Reckoning doesn`t execute death within. Reckoning in Romans 6 is followed by Romans 8 where the Holy Spirit effects both death and resurrection to experience progressive sanctification in fellowship with and enjoyment of the child-parent relationship thru mutually beneficial means. God`s desires for relationship are accomplished in our desire to be free of sin. His loving us first to produce love in us is the ultimate result because love conquers all. Nothing can separate us from that.

So the facts of Romans 6 can only be experienced thru experience of Romans 8.

 

[Arsenios]

Reckoning isn't a technique but a spontaneous believing that's produced by seeing facts revealed. Seeing and believing the facts, recognizing them, and, according to the facts, reckon ourselves dead to sin and living to God. That's what I believe to be a consecration on the part of the person seeing the truth and believing it.

I agree that this is self-consecration - The human side... But more than reckoning ourself dead, to actually mortify our members... Because if we reckon ourself dead to sin, and then find we are sinning even so, then we have major fail...

That's an objective move on the part of the believer. However the subjective, sanctification, which is what that vow is ( it's a sanctification vow that places both God and person in contract to each other that includes involvement of both. Consecration and sanctification.) God has the part of sanctifying us, we have the part of holding ourselves to the altar as a living sacrifice and that`s just our reasonable service.

Do you really believe that you can force a contract on God by making a vow that you might or might not keep? And that God then must sanctify those who "hold themselves to the altar as a living sacrifice"? Does such a holding on the part of a person entail the actual suffering that personal self-sacrifice cannot avoid if it is to be real?

Reckoning doesn`t execute death within.

So then is it merely fantasy?

Reckoning in Romans 6 is followed by Romans 8 where the Holy Spirit effects both death and resurrection to experience progressive sanctification in fellowship with and enjoyment of the child-parent relationship thru mutually beneficial means.

We understand beneficial to be one way only - We have nothing to offer God that will benefit Him... He is already the Source of ALL benefits...

God`s desires for relationship are accomplished in our desire to be free of sin. His loving us first to produce love in us is the ultimate result because love conquers all. Nothing can separate us from that.

So the facts of Romans 6 can only be experienced thru experience of Romans 8.

God's "desire" for our relationahip with Him are only for OUR benefit, not for His - He does not need us, but we totally need Him...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I agree that this is self-consecration - The human side... But more than reckoning ourself dead, to actually mortify our members... Because if we reckon ourself dead to sin, and then find we are sinning even so, then we have major fail...



Do you really believe that you can force a contract on God by making a vow that you might or might not keep? And that God then must sanctify those who "hold themselves to the altar as a living sacrifice"? Does such a holding on the part of a person entail the actual suffering that personal self-sacrifice cannot avoid if it is to be real?



So then is it merely fantasy?



We understand beneficial to be one way only - We have nothing to offer God that will benefit Him... He is already the Source of ALL benefits...



God's "desire" for our relationahip with Him are only for OUR benefit, not for His - He does not need us, but we totally need Him...

Arsenios

ya k that's quite literal and to the letter but in essence I agree.

 

[Arsenios]

ya k that's quite literal and to the letter but in essence I agree.

God is a total Give - As John writes, God Love IS...
And for us to be mature [perfected] in the Faith,
We need be ALL give as well, following Him...
Union with God is not union with the world...
Self/Ego is union with the world, the old man...
The duality of life/death, pleasure/pain...
These are the ruling powers of the old-self-man...
For the Mature Christian, the ruling power...
Is the Power of the Love that God IS...
And it is a matter of degree in His Saints...

Arsenios