The Power of Prayer

[Sanoy]

How would you possibly know what my standard is, for the claim to the knowledge of existence for anything?

I find your response fascinating....

1. I was a 'true blue' believer in Christ for decades, despite presented lack in contact.
2. It was only after decades of the feeling I was talking to myself, that I started to truly ask myself, 'hey, is anything actually listening, or am I instead talking to myself?'
3. I started to read the Bible, and found that many verses actually stated God answers all prayer, especially when directed in a genuine sense, which I felt I had.

Thus, it was the precursor, that after decades of absolutely no contact forthcoming, did I start to question IF such assertions were actually real.

I'm not making the claim that I know what is in your heart. I am making the claim that a better explanation than the violation of free will here is that you would still reject Him. And a good reason to believe that you would still reject Him is your propositional bias which is exemplified in creating an epistemic standard that exceeds what is required to even believe in the existence of the external world.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

[

Great questions...

Prayer was not the be-all, end-all, to my current status. It was a combo of many things... But staying on topic, I would say not feeling like I ever received a reply, and felt I was instead only speaking to myself, left me to wonder... Is something really listening? Or, is it instead my inherent nature to impose some intentional agent, as I'm a selfish agent whom thinks my worth is greater than it really is.?.?

In regards to 'faith', one of the biggest caveats was 'you can't get something from nothing'. Combine this with many people, I felt were very intelligent, telling me 'the Bible is true, and filled with eyewitness attestation', I basically took it all in, appealing to authority; rather than investigating for myself, to reach my own conclusions. It also did not hurt to be reminded that all non-believers will parish or burn.

Well, when I finally started to explore with as much of an 'unbiased' lens as I could muster, I landed on the 'other side', so-to-speak...

I hope this answers your questions?

Having your own mind in not a problem - it makes sense to weigh things up carefully. You talk of of having an unbiased lens - could that lens be misty and not able to focus correctly? I read recently of some very well qualified engineers holding on to conspiracy theories over the falling down of the Twin Towers on 9/11. Can you really trust your mind to make good judgements even about yourself let alone the nature of things?

I can sympathise with you in that you feel indoctrinated and got no real revelation for yourself and no answers to prayers ( according to your lens of vision ). The question now - is would you be willing to try again and seek God and see if he is for real. Would you be prepared to do that without the proof upfront? We are talking about the biggest prize of all here - what would you do to get it?

 

[cvanwey]

Having your own mind in not a problem - it makes sense to weigh things up carefully. You talk of of having an unbiased lens - could that lens be misty and not able to focus correctly?

Of course. But it would not even matter if my apprehension was 'right' or 'wrong'. Just like the many whom claim they receive responses in prayer from opposing gods of the claimed Yahweh. I don;t question their apprehension seems real to them. Even if I think they are incorrect/mistaken/delusional. My point is, I have apprehended no contact, during prayer. This is not bias, just apprehension, devoid of any type of bias really at all...

I read recently of some very well qualified engineers holding on to conspiracy theories over the falling down of the Twin Towers on 9/11. Can you really trust your mind to make good judgements even about yourself let alone the nature of things?

I see no relevancy in this response... Please see above

I can sympathise with you in that you feel indoctrinated and got no real revelation for yourself and no answers to prayers ( according to your lens of vision ). The question now - is would you be willing to try again and seek God and see if he is for real. Would you be prepared to do that without the proof upfront? We are talking about the biggest prize of all here - what would you do to get it?

Well, let me ask you in return... What if a believer, in an opposing religion, one in which you used to believed in, but now don't, told you to give it another shot. Would you? I doubt it.

I'm not here asking for someone to coax me back into trying again. I'm asking WHY God never did what He claims He does to begin with, as stated in Holy Scripture?

 

[cvanwey]

I'm not making the claim that I know what is in your heart. I am making the claim that a better explanation than the violation of free will here is that you would still reject Him. And a good reason to believe that you would still reject Him is your propositional bias which is exemplified in creating an epistemic standard that exceeds what is required to even believe in the existence of the external world.

Maybe you missed the last part of my edited response:

'In essence, I feel you have it backwards... It was due to the continued lack in contact, that I began to loose my faith. Not instead, that I once knew it was true and later decided to rebel.'

 

[Sanoy]

Maybe you missed the last part of my edited response:

'In essence, I feel you have it backwards... It was due to the continued lack in contact, that I began to loose my faith. Not instead, that I once knew it was true and later decided to rebel.'

I have asked you multiple times about the details of your past and you have always vehemently refused to provide it. I stand by my claim, and I don't think your past, even if you presented the details, will change that claim.

 

[cvanwey]

I have asked you multiple times about the details of your past and you have always vehemently refused to provide it. I stand by my claim, and I don't think your past, even if you presented the details, will change that claim.

I'm more than happy to share details relevant to the cause. Ask me what you will You are asserting quite a lot.

Again, I used to believe, and NOW doubt. ONE of the reasons, is due to the fact that after decades of receiving no response from the claimed agent (i.e.) prayer, I posed doubt; among many later findings. Please tell me why you feel my standard is imbalanced, in comparison to the material 'universe'?

 

[Sanoy]

I'm an open book man. Ask me what you will You are asserting quite a lot.

Again, I used to believe, and NOW doubt. ONE of the reasons, is due to the fact that after decades of receiving no response from the claimed agent (i.e.) prayer, I posed doubt; among many later findings. Please tell me why you feel my standard is imbalanced, in comparison to the material world?

I am not asserting a lot. I am asserting just one thing - "that a better explanation than the violation of free will here is that you would still reject Him".

The epistemic standard that you ask of God cannot even be asked of the external world.

 

[cvanwey]

I am not asserting a lot. I am asserting just one thing - "that a better explanation than the violation of free will here is that you would still reject Him".

The epistemic standard that you ask of God cannot even be asked of the external world.

I'm not sure if you are not reading my responses, don't understand them, or maybe you just wish to repeat the same thing.

Please, I implore you, read what I am saying, in direct response to your response

I'm saying that I gave the belief decades. Unfettered, in full belief. Had I once received some kind of tangible sign, apprehension, contact/knowledge - upon praying, I would most certainly remain a believer today. Much the same very reason many here likely believe. I'm saying that ONE of the reasons I NOW doubt, is due to lack in response upon continued prayer. Once the doubt started, only then did I explore other channels. Only to then further reinforce my suspicions that maybe the Bible was nothing more than a book of claims written by humans; maybe some true, some false, some fabricated, etc...

But in regards to the claims of prayer, it would appear, at least me ME, the claims of prayer fail. So though many claim to have received a response, and continue believing, most likely reinforced by the 'fact' they received a respons(es), I did not.

So again, to answer your response, with extreme precision and clarity, if God ever presented Himself to me in a way in which I felt I had no doubt, I would not be here.

Would I still reject Him at some point later in my life? Honestly, I doubt I would have. The only reason I'm hear NOW, is because I never got what the Bible claimed it was supposed to give me. I.E. claimed from the OP. Had God contacted me once, I would most likely had continued down the same path, unfettered in my belief until natural death.

 

[Sanoy]

I'm not sure if you are not reading my responses, don't understand them, or maybe you just wish to repeat the same thing.

Please, I implore you, read what I am saying, in direct response to your response

I'm saying that I gave the belief decades. Unfettered, in full belief. Had I once received some kind of tangible sign, apprehension, contact/knowledge - upon praying, I would most certainly remain a believer today. Much the same very reason many here likely believe. I'm saying that ONE of the reasons I NOW doubt, is due to lack in response upon continued prayer. Once the doubt started, only then did I explore other channels. Only to then further reinforce my suspicions that maybe the Bible was nothing more than a book of claims written by humans; maybe some true, some false, some fabricated, etc...

But in regards to the claims of prayer, it would appear, at least me ME, the claims of prayer fail. So though many claim to have received a response, and continue believing, most likely reinforced by the 'fact' they received a respons(es), I did not.

So again, to answer your response, with extreme precision and clarity, if God ever presented Himself to me in a way in which I felt I had no doubt, I would not be here.

Would I still reject Him at some point later in my life? Honestly, I doubt I would have. The only reason I'm hear NOW, is because I never got what the Bible claimed it was supposed to give me. I.E. claimed from the OP. Had God contacted me once, I would most likely had continued down the same path, unfettered in my belief until natural death.

Do not mistake my diligence in staying on task with not reading you. None of this has anything to do with, nor undermines, the claim I made.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Well, let me ask you in return... What if a believer, in an opposing religion, one in which you used to believed in, but now don't, told you to give it another shot. Would you? I doubt it.

I'm not here asking for someone to coax me back into trying again. I'm asking WHY God never did what He claims He does to begin with, as stated in Holy Scripture?

I wasn't trying to coax you back - I was measuring your attitude.
In any subject, a students success is not often about his reasoning ability or his IQ - it's often down to attitude and desire.

There are many Christians who have had some amazing revelations of God - yet have gone on to fall away. Solomon saw fire come down from heaven and was gifted in Wisdom and had visions of God but ended up miles away from where he should be. Do you think he saw and heard much of God during this time? Did Solomon have the same desire as his father David?

I'd be interested in knowing what denomination you were part of. How often you went to church. How often you prayed and how often you read the bible. What was the core teachings of the church?

This may well answer the question of WHY God never did for YOU what you expected.

 

[cvanwey]

Do not mistake my diligence in staying on task with not reading you. None of this has anything to do with, nor undermines, the claim I made.

I would really like to know what (you) are driving at? Honestly. What have I yet to address? If you are genuinely asking me something, in which I have not addressed, then maybe re-word what you are asking of me?

 

[Sanoy]

I would really like to know what (you) are driving at?

I have said this unambiguously 3x times now, this will be the fourth time.

I am making the claim that a better explanation than the violation of free will here is that you would still reject Him. And a good reason to believe that you would still reject Him is your propositional bias which is exemplified in creating an epistemic standard that exceeds what is required to even believe in the existence of the external world.

 

[cvanwey]

I wasn't trying to coax you back - I was measuring your attitude.
In any subject, a students success is not often about his reasoning ability or his IQ - it's often down to attitude and desire.

Okay, far enough...

My attitude is that I tried, really hard, for decades, and am now presenting my rejection of the claim here, to see if they hold any water. Thus far, I have yet to receive anything which tells me that the Bible is actually correct about the claims to prayer. You have any? And remember, I cited many specific verses to reference for starters.

There are many Christians who have had some amazing revelations of God - yet have gone on to fall away. Solomon saw fire come down from heaven and was gifted in Wisdom and had visions of God but ended up miles away from where he should be. Do you think he saw and heard much of God during this time? Did Solomon have the same desire as his father David?

I fell away because He never respond to any of my earnest requests for contact. Requests which the Holy Bible states would be fulfilled. Can you explain?

I'd be interested in knowing what denomination you were part of. How often you went to church. How often you prayed and how often you read the bible. What was the core teachings of the church?

This may well answer the question of WHY God never did for YOU what you expected.

Raised Catholic, later nondenominational. Went to church once a week until my early twenties, Prayed very often. The core was belief, faith, repent, and relationship; not works.

 

[cvanwey]

I have said this unambiguously 3x times now, this will be the fourth time.

I am making the claim that a better explanation than the violation of free will here is that you would still reject Him. And a good reason to believe that you would still reject Him is your propositional bias which is exemplified in creating an epistemic standard that exceeds what is required to even believe in the existence of the external world.

And I am asking you (again) to re-word this statement then.

I feel I've answered you very clearly. You are stating I would 'still reject Him'. I'm saying I would most likely not of... That I would have continued believing, if I received contact in prayer, at least once, in over three prior decades....

 

[Sanoy]

And I am asking you (again) to re-word this statement then.

I feel I've answered you very clearly. You are stating I would 'still reject Him'. I'm saying I would most likely not of... That I would have continued believing, if I received contact in prayer, at least once, in over three prior decades....

I am not rewording it. This is the clam I am making.

I didn't ask you a question.

I did not state that you would still reject Him. I stated, for the 5th time now - "I am making the claim that a better explanation than the violation of free will here is that you would still reject Him."

 

[cvanwey]

I am not rewording it. This is the clam I am making.

I didn't ask you a question.

Ooops! My bad!

 

[Sanoy]

Re-read my previous post #34 'And I am asking you (again) to re-word this statement then.'



Oh, I already answered this...

I stated I most likely would not have rejected it, had I even received a shred of what the Bible claims, regarding prayer in Scripture. But glad to know you seem know more about me than I do.

Since you have nothing actually tangible to add, in regards to the OP, I guess you are done.

Thanks

I have not asked you any questions to answer.

I am not rewording my statement because it is the statement I am making.

That you most likely would not have rejected it had you received a shred of what the Bible claims has no bearing on the value of the claim I made.

 

[cvanwey]

I did not state that you would still reject Him. I stated, for the 5th time now - "I am making the claim that a better explanation than the violation of free will here is that you would still reject Him."

Okay, my apologies @Sanoy. I read your post wrong!!!! MY BAD!!!!

I guess I need to slow my roll a bit huh?.?.?

Okay, let's start anew...

You are saying that the ones whom respond 'that my freewill would be violated' is NOT AS GOOD of an answer as the responders stating I would still reject Him?

So I then have a question for you? If you still wish to engage...? And again, I read your statement wrong. My deepest apologies!

Is it really a 'better explanation'? Because again, the Bible claims to answer all prayer. Not only to the ones whom are already full fledged believers, the (in crowd).

Furthermore, what be their logical response when I tell them I was a believer in prayer for decades?

 

[Sanoy]

So I then have a question for you? If you still wish to engage...?

Is it really a 'better explanation'? Because again, the Bible claims to answer all prayer. Not only to the ones whom are already full fledged believers, the (in crowd).

After all that I don't, but I will anyway because I should.

If you mean answer as in provide the request, then no the Bible doesn't claim that all prayer will answered. It's not even logically possible. There are certainly some Christians who believe that but that is bad theology.

 

[cvanwey]

After all that I don't, but I will anyway because I should.

If you mean answer as in provide the request, then no the Bible doesn't claim that all prayer will answered. It's not even logically possible. There are certainly some Christians who believe that but that is bad theology.

LOL! Yeah, I'm toggling stuff, but no excuses. I will try to read your responses more carefully

Why do you consider it 'bad theology', that God answers all prayer? Hypothetical...

Say I prayed to God 10,000 times to reveal His presence to me. And He never does. Not even once. This would mean He instead either ignored, denied, didn't listen, or chose to wait until later, 10,000 times?

So I then ask, what is a 'good' metric to follow for 'good theology' in prayer? Is there a way to measure for answered prayer? Or, is it just like any other not falsifiable claim anyone can make about many other not falsifiable claims?