The Power of God

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile" (Romans 1:16).

After careful thinking and prayer about the power of God, I have come to the firm conviction that the power of God comes only through the preaching of the gospel, and the purpose for the power of God manifested is to bring salvation to the unsaved. This is the power that manifested through the Apostles that turned multitudes of pagans to Christ, and actually Christianised the Roman Empire.

We have read about the power of God manifested in more modern times in the Great Awakening in New England, the Welsh Revival, and other revivals around the world that resulted in multitudes turning to Christ and receiving Him as Saviour. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that brings the conviction of sin to hardened hearts, breaks through the hardness and unbelief and causes unsaved folk to cry out to God for mercy. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that gives saving faith to those people to trust in Christ for their salvation.

In short, if the power of God is manifested, there is widespread conviction of sin, and people turning to Christ. Jesus, speaking about the coming of the Holy Spirit, says: "When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8). This is the whole mission and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not some indeterminate mist or electricity that hovers in the air. He indwells the spirit of true Christian believers. Therefore it is through these believers preaching and sharing the gospel of Christ that manifests the power of God as the Holy Spirit takes the words of the gospel and applies it to the hearts of those who are listening.

"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14). This is why Jesus commissioned the Apostles and their successors to go into all the world and preaching the gospel, making disciples for Him. And "Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it" (Mark 16:20). This shows that the power of God accompanied the preaching of the gospel, and the signs and wonders that were performed were in connection with it.

Paul knew this when he went to Corinth to plant a church there. This is what he said:
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:1-2). So, when Paul preached Christ and Him crucified, the power of the Holy Spirit confirmed what he was saying was totally true: "My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power" (1 Corinthians 2:4).

So, if we are to see the power of the Holy Spirit manifested, we are to preach the gospel which consists in Christ crucified and risen again. When the gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit will work with the preacher, because that is His principal mission - to get souls saved.

The manifestations that many are describing as the power of the Holy Spirit, such as shaking, trembling, compulsive weeping and laughing, falling down, jerking, etc., are not the power of the Holy Spirit according to Paul's description of it, and neither are they included in Mark's description of the disciples going everywhere preaching the gospel and the Lord working with them with accompanying signs and wonders. Nor is it Luke's description at the beginning of Acts when the disciples were gathered in prayer in response to the persecution they were experiencing where the room was shaken and they were filled with boldness to preach the gospel without fear. It was the room that was shaken and not the disciples themselves. What they received was the filling of the Holy Spirit which made them bold to preach the gospel.

I have come to the opinion that all the shaking, jerking, trembling, falling down, and other sensory manifestations are not the power of the Holy Spirit at all. They are not even the result of the power of the Holy Spirit. These have all to do with "me" and what is happening to "me". Most of it does not result in a greater degree of concern for the lost and boldness to go out and preach to them without fear. All these ones are satisfied with is the "feel good" sensory manifestations which they are deceived into believing that what is happening is the power of the Holy Spirit. There are no parallels to this in the New Testament at all.

Nor are there parallels in the accounts of the revivals. What we see in the Great Awakening under Jonathan Edwards and Charles Finney, are people falling down and agonising under conviction of sin, and once they receive Christ, the manifestations cease. The same manifestations occurred in the Welsh Revival, but some manifestations started to occur among believers which gave rise to Jesse Penn-Lewis writing to show the difference between true Holy Spirit manifestation through conviction of sin, and fleshly/even demonic counterfeit manifestation (War On The Saints). Jonathan Edwards became concerned about spurious manifestations which he called "affections", and also wrote describing the differences between what was genuine and what was counterfeit. I believe that if Jonathan Edwards and Jesse Penn-Lewis were to observe most of the manifestations that we see in such meetings today, they would certainly identify them as counterfeit. Jonathan Edwards may have described them as of the flesh, but Jesse Penn-Lewis would have been more likely to label them as demonic!

Maria Woodworth-Etter, the "mother" of Pentecostalism, in the late 19th Century, had people falling down in her meetings, and up to a mile away from her tent. The difference with her ministry was that it was mainly unsaved people who fell down under the power of the Spirit and then got up saved!

So my conclusion is, that if the manifestation results in a believer having a great burden and conviction for getting the gospel out to the unsaved, and the boldness to do and do it, there it is more likely to be motivated by the Holy Spirit, but it is not a demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit until they actually preach the gospel and see the unsaved coming under conviction of sin and receiving Christ. Also, we must be aware that conviction of sin can result in opposition and persecution, as what happened to Stephen when he preached the gospel to the unbelieving Jews.

It is interesting to me that in the large mega-meetings, where much manifestation occurs in the form of falling down, trembling, shaking, etc., the actual preaching of Christ crucified and risen again is absent, and what is preached is that Jesus is your friend, will make you wealthy, and will give your guaranteed healing - as long as you give your "seed" offering to the ministry.

 

[brinny]

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile" (Romans 1:16).

After careful thinking and prayer about the power of God, I have come to the firm conviction that the power of God comes only through the preaching of the gospel, and the purpose for the power of God manifested is to bring salvation to the unsaved. This is the power that manifested through the Apostles that turned multitudes of pagans to Christ, and actually Christianised the Roman Empire.

We have read about the power of God manifested in more modern times in the Great Awakening in New England, the Welsh Revival, and other revivals around the world that resulted in multitudes turning to Christ and receiving Him as Saviour. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that brings the conviction of sin to hardened hearts, breaks through the hardness and unbelief and causes unsaved folk to cry out to God for mercy. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that gives saving faith to those people to trust in Christ for their salvation.

In short, if the power of God is manifested, there is widespread conviction of sin, and people turning to Christ. Jesus, speaking about the coming of the Holy Spirit, says: "When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8). This is the whole mission and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not some indeterminate mist or electricity that hovers in the air. He indwells the spirit of true Christian believers. Therefore it is through these believers preaching and sharing the gospel of Christ that manifests the power of God as the Holy Spirit takes the words of the gospel and applies it to the hearts of those who are listening.

"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14). This is why Jesus commissioned the Apostles and their successors to go into all the world and preaching the gospel, making disciples for Him. And "Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it" (Mark 16:20). This shows that the power of God accompanied the preaching of the gospel, and the signs and wonders that were performed were in connection with it.

Paul knew this when he went to Corinth to plant a church there. This is what he said:
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:1-2). So, when Paul preached Christ and Him crucified, the power of the Holy Spirit confirmed what he was saying was totally true: "My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power" (1 Corinthians 2:4).

So, if we are to see the power of the Holy Spirit manifested, we are to preach the gospel which consists in Christ crucified and risen again. When the gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit will work with the preacher, because that is His principal mission - to get souls saved.

The manifestations that many are describing as the power of the Holy Spirit, such as shaking, trembling, compulsive weeping and laughing, falling down, jerking, etc., are not the power of the Holy Spirit according to Paul's description of it, and neither are they included in Mark's description of the disciples going everywhere preaching the gospel and the Lord working with them with accompanying signs and wonders. Nor is it Luke's description at the beginning of Acts when the disciples were gathered in prayer in response to the persecution they were experiencing where the room was shaken and they were filled with boldness to preach the gospel without fear. It was the room that was shaken and not the disciples themselves. What they received was the filling of the Holy Spirit which made them bold to preach the gospel.

I have come to the opinion that all the shaking, jerking, trembling, falling down, and other sensory manifestations are not the power of the Holy Spirit at all. They are not even the result of the power of the Holy Spirit. These have all to do with "me" and what is happening to "me". Most of it does not result in a greater degree of concern for the lost and boldness to go out and preach to them without fear. All these ones are satisfied with is the "feel good" sensory manifestations which they are deceived into believing that what is happening is the power of the Holy Spirit. There are no parallels to this in the New Testament at all.

Nor are there parallels in the accounts of the revivals. What we see in the Great Awakening under Jonathan Edwards and Charles Finney, are people falling down and agonising under conviction of sin, and once they receive Christ, the manifestations cease. The same manifestations occurred in the Welsh Revival, but some manifestations started to occur among believers which gave rise to Jesse Penn-Lewis writing to show the difference between true Holy Spirit manifestation through conviction of sin, and fleshly/even demonic counterfeit manifestation (War On The Saints). Jonathan Edwards became concerned about spurious manifestations which he called "affections", and also wrote describing the differences between what was genuine and what was counterfeit. I believe that if Jonathan Edwards and Jesse Penn-Lewis were to observe most of the manifestations that we see in such meetings today, they would certainly identify them as counterfeit. Jonathan Edwards may have described them as of the flesh, but Jesse Penn-Lewis would have been more likely to label them as demonic!

Maria Woodworth-Etter, the "mother" of Pentecostalism, in the late 19th Century, had people falling down in her meetings, and up to a mile away from her tent. The difference with her ministry was that it was mainly unsaved people who fell down under the power of the Spirit and then got up saved!

So my conclusion is, that if the manifestation results in a believer having a great burden and conviction for getting the gospel out to the unsaved, and the boldness to do and do it, there it is more likely to be motivated by the Holy Spirit, but it is not a demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit until they actually preach the gospel and see the unsaved coming under conviction of sin and receiving Christ. Also, we must be aware that conviction of sin can result in opposition and persecution, as what happened to Stephen when he preached the gospel to the unbelieving Jews.

It is interesting to me that in the large mega-meetings, where much manifestation occurs in the form of falling down, trembling, shaking, etc., the actual preaching of Christ crucified and risen again is absent, and what is preached is that Jesus is your friend, will make you wealthy, and will give your guaranteed healing - as long as you give your "seed" offering to the ministry.

Thank you Oscar for posting this. God bless you.

Praise God! \o/

 

[Aussie Pete]

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile" (Romans 1:16).

After careful thinking and prayer about the power of God, I have come to the firm conviction that the power of God comes only through the preaching of the gospel, and the purpose for the power of God manifested is to bring salvation to the unsaved. This is the power that manifested through the Apostles that turned multitudes of pagans to Christ, and actually Christianised the Roman Empire.

We have read about the power of God manifested in more modern times in the Great Awakening in New England, the Welsh Revival, and other revivals around the world that resulted in multitudes turning to Christ and receiving Him as Saviour. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that brings the conviction of sin to hardened hearts, breaks through the hardness and unbelief and causes unsaved folk to cry out to God for mercy. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that gives saving faith to those people to trust in Christ for their salvation.

In short, if the power of God is manifested, there is widespread conviction of sin, and people turning to Christ. Jesus, speaking about the coming of the Holy Spirit, says: "When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8). This is the whole mission and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not some indeterminate mist or electricity that hovers in the air. He indwells the spirit of true Christian believers. Therefore it is through these believers preaching and sharing the gospel of Christ that manifests the power of God as the Holy Spirit takes the words of the gospel and applies it to the hearts of those who are listening.

"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14). This is why Jesus commissioned the Apostles and their successors to go into all the world and preaching the gospel, making disciples for Him. And "Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it" (Mark 16:20). This shows that the power of God accompanied the preaching of the gospel, and the signs and wonders that were performed were in connection with it.

Paul knew this when he went to Corinth to plant a church there. This is what he said:
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:1-2). So, when Paul preached Christ and Him crucified, the power of the Holy Spirit confirmed what he was saying was totally true: "My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power" (1 Corinthians 2:4).

So, if we are to see the power of the Holy Spirit manifested, we are to preach the gospel which consists in Christ crucified and risen again. When the gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit will work with the preacher, because that is His principal mission - to get souls saved.

The manifestations that many are describing as the power of the Holy Spirit, such as shaking, trembling, compulsive weeping and laughing, falling down, jerking, etc., are not the power of the Holy Spirit according to Paul's description of it, and neither are they included in Mark's description of the disciples going everywhere preaching the gospel and the Lord working with them with accompanying signs and wonders. Nor is it Luke's description at the beginning of Acts when the disciples were gathered in prayer in response to the persecution they were experiencing where the room was shaken and they were filled with boldness to preach the gospel without fear. It was the room that was shaken and not the disciples themselves. What they received was the filling of the Holy Spirit which made them bold to preach the gospel.

I have come to the opinion that all the shaking, jerking, trembling, falling down, and other sensory manifestations are not the power of the Holy Spirit at all. They are not even the result of the power of the Holy Spirit. These have all to do with "me" and what is happening to "me". Most of it does not result in a greater degree of concern for the lost and boldness to go out and preach to them without fear. All these ones are satisfied with is the "feel good" sensory manifestations which they are deceived into believing that what is happening is the power of the Holy Spirit. There are no parallels to this in the New Testament at all.

Nor are there parallels in the accounts of the revivals. What we see in the Great Awakening under Jonathan Edwards and Charles Finney, are people falling down and agonising under conviction of sin, and once they receive Christ, the manifestations cease. The same manifestations occurred in the Welsh Revival, but some manifestations started to occur among believers which gave rise to Jesse Penn-Lewis writing to show the difference between true Holy Spirit manifestation through conviction of sin, and fleshly/even demonic counterfeit manifestation (War On The Saints). Jonathan Edwards became concerned about spurious manifestations which he called "affections", and also wrote describing the differences between what was genuine and what was counterfeit. I believe that if Jonathan Edwards and Jesse Penn-Lewis were to observe most of the manifestations that we see in such meetings today, they would certainly identify them as counterfeit. Jonathan Edwards may have described them as of the flesh, but Jesse Penn-Lewis would have been more likely to label them as demonic!

Maria Woodworth-Etter, the "mother" of Pentecostalism, in the late 19th Century, had people falling down in her meetings, and up to a mile away from her tent. The difference with her ministry was that it was mainly unsaved people who fell down under the power of the Spirit and then got up saved!

So my conclusion is, that if the manifestation results in a believer having a great burden and conviction for getting the gospel out to the unsaved, and the boldness to do and do it, there it is more likely to be motivated by the Holy Spirit, but it is not a demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit until they actually preach the gospel and see the unsaved coming under conviction of sin and receiving Christ. Also, we must be aware that conviction of sin can result in opposition and persecution, as what happened to Stephen when he preached the gospel to the unbelieving Jews.

It is interesting to me that in the large mega-meetings, where much manifestation occurs in the form of falling down, trembling, shaking, etc., the actual preaching of Christ crucified and risen again is absent, and what is preached is that Jesus is your friend, will make you wealthy, and will give your guaranteed healing - as long as you give your "seed" offering to the ministry.

"The poor and needy seek for water and find none...." That's what you are describing.

In the 1990's there was a manifestation that was called the Toronto Blessing. There is nothing new about it or the present version. Such manifestations were commonplace during the Azusa Street revival. The genuine was present along with the false. The Toronto Blessing was totally false and the nameless current manifestations likewise.
I believe this to be the deception that the Lord Jesus warned us about, Matthew 24:24. And yes, it is possible for the elect to be deceived. The Christian who thinks that they cannot be deceived is already deceived.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"The poor and needy seek for water and find none...." That's what you are describing.

In the 1990's there was a manifestation that was called the Toronto Blessing. There is nothing new about it or the present version. Such manifestations were commonplace during the Azusa Street revival. The genuine was present along with the false. The Toronto Blessing was totally false and the nameless current manifestations likewise.
I believe this to be the deception that the Lord Jesus warned us about, Matthew 24:24. And yes, it is possible for the elect to be deceived. The Christian who thinks that they cannot be deceived is already deceived.

It could very well be that the Toronto blessing revival could have the genuine mixed with the counterfeit. There were many who came to Christ in that revival, which means that if it were totally counterfeit, those conversions would never have happened. There are similarities with it and the Welsh revival, which gave rise to Jesse Penn-Lewis' book War on the Saints which warns of the counterfeit and how to recognise it. I believe that Michael Brown and Stephen Hill are sincere preachers of the Word. I have read their books and find nothing that contravenes the Scripture. But as Jonathan Edwards and Jesse Penn-Lewis identified, give people an inch they will take a mile and there will be the excesses. The trouble is that the excesses are more prominent.

I noticed that when I was involved in Pentecostal churches as a member, and later on when visiting the odd meeting, that although there were the shaking, jerking, falling over etc. going on, I noticed that the pastor and the elders didn't participate in them, also most of the men didn't either. It was usually the women who had the most dramatic manifestations. What does that tell you?

I remember hearing about one Pentecostal service where the preacher told the congregation that in three seconds there was going to be a great wave of the Holy Spirit go through the whole meeting. He counted, 3...2...1..."there it goes!" People started jumping and shouting "hallelujah!", etc., and when things calmed down, the preacher said, "Did you feel that?" And many people said, "Yes we did!" Then the preacher said, "Funny...I never felt a thing!" It was a wonderful example of that preacher's naughty sense of humour, and the power of suggestion. It was a great lesson to learn!

 

[Aussie Pete]

It could very well be that the Toronto blessing revival could have the genuine mixed with the counterfeit. There were many who came to Christ in that revival, which means that if it were totally counterfeit, those conversions would never have happened. There are similarities with it and the Welsh revival, which gave rise to Jesse Penn-Lewis' book War on the Saints which warns of the counterfeit and how to recognise it. I believe that Michael Brown and Stephen Hill are sincere preachers of the Word. I have read their books and find nothing that contravenes the Scripture. But as Jonathan Edwards and Jesse Penn-Lewis identified, give people an inch they will take a mile and there will be the excesses. The trouble is that the excesses are more prominent.

I noticed that when I was involved in Pentecostal churches as a member, and later on when visiting the odd meeting, that although there were the shaking, jerking, falling over etc. going on, I noticed that the pastor and the elders didn't participate in them, also most of the men didn't either. It was usually the women who had the most dramatic manifestations. What does that tell you?

I remember hearing about one Pentecostal service where the preacher told the congregation that in three seconds there was going to be a great wave of the Holy Spirit go through the whole meeting. He counted, 3...2...1..."there it goes!" People started jumping and shouting "hallelujah!", etc., and when things calmed down, the preacher said, "Did you feel that?" And many people said, "Yes we did!" Then the preacher said, "Funny...I never felt a thing!" It was a wonderful example of that preacher's naughty sense of humour, and the power of suggestion. It was a great lesson to learn!

With the Toronto Blessing, it was the reverse of previous revivals. In the former revivals, some error came in with the real. With the TB, a few people genuinely sought the Lord Jesus and got some help. That can happen in the least spiritual of meetings.
I attended many meetings, spoke to many people I knew and read reports and books of overseas experiences. I also watched two videos of the meeting where the TB was launched. I had an occult spirit before I was saved. I also attended a concert put on by a hypnotist. There is nothing of God in the TB.

The fundamental flaw in the TB is the absence of the Lord Jesus. It's all about the (un) Holy Spirit. Yet the Lord Jesus describe the work of the Holy Spirit:
John 16: 13-15
"However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.…"

The meeting that launched the TB had the two promoters of this abomination talking to each other in tongues, laughing. One of them used his hypnotic power on a pastor to prevent him speaking, then had him carrying on like a chicken on the stage. People do not get born again by falling over outside the church as was supposed to have happened in Pensacola. Meetings were instructed "Don't pray. Do your praying at home". You will know from reading Jesse Penn-Lewis that passivity is the doorway to demon possession. The TB preacher, aka "Holy Ghost Bartender", demanded people become passive.

I can say a lot more if you wish. I know that attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil is blasphemy. My conscience is entirely clear.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

With the Toronto Blessing, it was the reverse of previous revivals. In the former revivals, some error came in with the real. With the TB, a few people genuinely sought the Lord Jesus and got some help. That can happen in the least spiritual of meetings.
I attended many meetings, spoke to many people I knew and read reports and books of overseas experiences. I also watched two videos of the meeting where the TB was launched. I had an occult spirit before I was saved. I also attended a concert put on by a hypnotist. There is nothing of God in the TB.

The fundamental flaw in the TB is the absence of the Lord Jesus. It's all about the (un) Holy Spirit. Yet the Lord Jesus describe the work of the Holy Spirit:
John 16: 13-15
"However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.…"

The meeting that launched the TB had the two promoters of this abomination talking to each other in tongues, laughing. One of them used his hypnotic power on a pastor to prevent him speaking, then had him carrying on like a chicken on the stage. People do not get born again by falling over outside the church as was supposed to have happened in Pensacola. Meetings were instructed "Don't pray. Do your praying at home". You will know from reading Jesse Penn-Lewis that passivity is the doorway to demon possession. The TB preacher, aka "Holy Ghost Bartender", demanded people become passive.

I can say a lot more if you wish. I know that attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil is blasphemy. My conscience is entirely clear.

I have no doubt that a lot went on in those meetings cannot be found in the New Testament, and I am pretty firm on if it ain't in the New Testament then it ain't true. The Seduction of Christianity, and Occult Invasion by Dave Hunt certainly opened my eyes to what is going on in the mainstream Charismatic movement, and would certainly explain many things that went on in the Toronto revival.

It is interesting that I had 12 years in the Pentecostal movement, and yet I didn't have a clear understanding of the gospel of Christ until I started reading and studying 17th Century Puritan Christian literature. I am discovering that the basic gospel of Christ is being sidelined by other doctrines which makes me wonder how many are being genuinely converted to Christ in many Charismatic environments.

There seems to be a lack of real conviction of sin in those being introduced to Christianity, and without a clear view of our sinfulness and deserving of hell, many don't know exactly what they are being saved from. In fact, the expression "being saved" is disappearing from Charismatic preaching and replaced by "accepting Christ". I think that leads to easy believerism where a person puts on the Charismatic badge without having a sound understanding of the gospel. It also explains why many seem to fall away after a year or two. It may be that there may not be the good, deep soil of the real gospel of Christ where converts can really take deep root into the true Christian faith. Also perhaps because many have faith in experiences, and treat the written Scriptures as the "dead letter", when the experiences start to fade, then their faith starts to fail, and so they become discouraged and walk away from Christ, not realising that they may not have had the Christ of the Bible in the first place, but a Jesus of their own experiential imagination.

 

[tturt]

A thread like this is posted on a regular basis .

To lthose who had experiences as defined above as not being from God - You do not have to have anyone's seal of approval for what happened to you. Dont be discouraged because this is between you and the Lord. You probably asks Him and I encourage you to continue to pursue God and trust Him to guide you.

It takes so little to offend believers. I've seen a few tears and a spoken amen - 2 separate occasions- to cause great disgust.

Here's some scriptures that says they fell - in all directions:
-2Ch 5:14 "So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God."
-Rev 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:"
-Eze 44:4 "Then the man brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple. I looked, and the glory of the Lord filled his temple. And I fell facedown."
-They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.” John 18:5-6
-"Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face." Num 22:3

They trembled:
-"And all the people saw the thunderings, and the flames, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw [it], they trembled, and stood afar off,"
-"Then were assembled to me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the unfaithfulness of those that had been carried away; and I sat overwhelmed until the evening oblation." Ezra

They laughed-
""Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with rejoicing: then said they among the nations, Jehovah hath done great things for them. Jehovah hath done great things for us; [and] we are joyful." PSA 126:2-3
"...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in [the] Holy Spirit." Rom 14:17

Also, some criticize raised hands. Jesus raised His hands Luk 24:50

There arec some fleshly behaviors but overall their lives were changed. IWth their imperfections, they still love Jesus, witness, feed the poor, serve in churches, etc. One researcher of some of those who were slain in the spirit has found after 7 years, almost everyone of them are still pursuing God. Some say there's no fruit from Brownsville. Just one person who was at the Brownsville revival today regularly ministers to hundreds of thousands of people.

Think we need to be careful looking at someone else such as when Eli misjudged Hannah (I Sam 1) and David's wife was upset because he was dancing with all his might (II Sam)

God's power from Peter's shadow healed - dont see preaching - ",...when people knew Peter was going to walk by, they carried the sick out to the streets and laid them down on cots and mats, knowing the incredible power emanating from him would overshadow them and heal them." Acts 5:15 "God kept releasing a flow of extraordinary miracles through the hands of Paul. Because of this, people took Paul’s handkerchiefs and articles of clothing, even pieces of cloth that had touched his skin, laying them on the bodies of the sick, and diseases and demons left them and they were healed." Acts 19 Again dont see preaching

Jesus, while on earth, said look at the signs and wonders "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." John 10:37-38. It was the way He reached them - as individuals.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A thread like this is posted on a regular basis .

To lthose who had experiences as defined above as not being from God - You do not have to have anyone's seal of approval for what happened to you. Dont be discouraged because this is between you and the Lord. You probably asks Him and I encourage you to continue to pursue God and trust Him to guide you.

It takes so little to offend believers. I've seen a few tears and a spoken amen - 2 separate occasions- to cause great disgust.

Here's some scriptures that says they fell - in all directions:
-2Ch 5:14 "So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God."
-Rev 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:"
-Eze 44:4 "Then the man brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple. I looked, and the glory of the Lord filled his temple. And I fell facedown."
-They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.” John 18:5-6
-"Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face." Num 22:3

They trembled:
-"And all the people saw the thunderings, and the flames, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw [it], they trembled, and stood afar off,"
-"Then were assembled to me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the unfaithfulness of those that had been carried away; and I sat overwhelmed until the evening oblation." Ezra

They laughed-
""Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with rejoicing: then said they among the nations, Jehovah hath done great things for them. Jehovah hath done great things for us; [and] we are joyful." PSA 126:2-3
"...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in [the] Holy Spirit." Rom 14:17

There arec some fleshly behaviors but overall their lives were changed. IWth their imperfections, they still love Jesus, witness, feed the poor, serve in churches, etc. One researcher of some of those who were slain in the spirit has found after 7 years, almost everyone of them are still pursuing God. Some say there's no fruit from Brownsville. Just one person who was at the Brownsville revival today regularly ministers to hundreds of thousands of people.

Think we need to be careful looking at someone else such as when Eli misjudged Hannah (I Sam 1) and David's wife was upset because he was dancing with all his might (II Sam)

God's power from Peter's shadow healed - dont see preaching - ",...when people knew Peter was going to walk by, they carried the sick out to the streets and laid them down on cots and mats, knowing the incredible power emanating from him would overshadow them and heal them." Acts 5:15 "God kept releasing a flow of extraordinary miracles through the hands of Paul. Because of this, people took Paul’s handkerchiefs and articles of clothing, even pieces of cloth that had touched his skin, laying them on the bodies of the sick, and diseases and demons left them and they were healed." Acts 19 Again dont see preaching

Jesus, while on earth, said look at the signs and wonders "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." John 10:37-38. It was the way He reached them - as individuals.

The whole point of signs and wonders in the New Testament is to confirm the gospel of Christ so that the unsaved will believe and turn to Christ. The reason why we don't much in the way of signs and wonders today (and just talking about them doesn't mean that they actually happen in most cases), is that the gospel of Christ is rarely preached in such a way that the Holy Spirit would want to confirm it with supernatural acts of healing and deliverance.

The reason is that most churches that desire signs and wonders is to have them for their own self-gratification. That's what James says, "You have not because you ask not, and when you do ask, all you want to do is to consume it on your own lusts". The main reason many want to have signs and wonders is to be able to say to all other churches: "We're the king of the castle, and you're the dirty rascals". There is no way that the Holy Spirit will do anything that would cause a group to become arrogant and think they are the best since sliced bread for the body of Christ.

I was part of a church that boasted in signs and wonders (although I didn't see any in the eight years I was a member), and they believed that they were the true "local church" and they referred to themselves as "the body of Christ" and expected all the other churches to unite with them under their banner. It is no surprise that the other churches in the city refused. It is also no surprise that the Holy Spirit did not manifest signs and wonders in that church because no way would He support such arrogance.

The early disciples asked the Lord for boldness to preach the gospel and that signs and wonders be done in "the holy Name of your Son Jesus Christ". The trouble with the church I was with was that they said they wanted signs and wonders in the Name of Jesus, but in reality they wanted them in their own name, and so actually brought dishonour on the Name of Jesus by using His Name for their own spiritual gratification.

If they were sincere in desiring signs and wonders be done in the Lord's Name, and the local Baptist church down the road started to manifest them, they would rejoice that the Lord was answering their prayers, and not being envious that the church down the road was seeing miracles and they weren't in their own church.

 

[tturt]

Saying these experiences are demonic has the same effect as those who post against speaking in tongues and tongues with interpretations. Scriptures already posted shows that they are godly,

Of course, the point is the gospel.

There seems to be hard feelings towards previous and current church associations - maybe forgive them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Saying these experiences are demonic has the same effect as those who post against speaking in tongues and tongues with interpretations. Scriptures already posted shows that they are godly,

Of course, the point is the gospel.

There seems to be hard feelings towards previous and current church associations - maybe forgive them.

We know that tongues and interpretation are true because they are clearly shown in the written Scripture.

But Paul says to test all things and hold fast to that which is true (1 Thessalonians 5:21). How do we test all things? By the written Scriptures, as the Bereans did when they heard the preaching of Paul. They searched the Scriptures daily to confirm that what Paul was preaching was true. This is not a cursory glance at a few verses, but an in-depth examination of Scripture through its threads of teaching and examples.

We must apply the same comprehensive examination of the written Scriptures to any purported experience that is claimed to be of the Holy Spirit. Are there parallel examples in the Scriptures, especially the New Testament. Do these experiences reflect the nature and character of God? The Holy Spirit is so in unity with the Father and the Son that He has the same nature and character. Does the experience contravene any of the fruit of the Spirit? (for example: self-control). Is the experience consistent with the central mission of the Holy Spirit, which is totally the same as what Jesus said, "The Son of Man is come to seek and save that which is lost". Does the experience point to Jesus as the wonderful, and total Saviour of those who put their trust in Him? Does it enhance the reputation of the Christian church in front of the unsaved world?

Conversely, when a detailed examination of all the references to false prophets, signs and wonders, is the experience, prophecy, or teaching commensurate with what is seen in these references, or are they more characteristic of what all the references to true experience, teaching and prophecy show in the written Scriptures?

It is not enough to say, "The Holy Spirit told me, so I don't have to refer to the dead letter of the Word." Unless we can verify that it is the Holy Spirit who has said it through the written Scriptures, which are God's total communication to mankind, we cannot be sure that it is the Holy Spirit and not some other spirit that is not of God.

 

[tturt]

When we tests the spirits, we shouldn't conclude that all are ungodly especially considering that Scriptures posted shows God moves in various ways.