The Pope and the Lord's Prayer

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I read that the Pope wants to change the Lord’s Prayer. Jesus told us to pray: “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” but the Pope, according to the article, thinks this makes God look bad. Was Jesus wrong and the Pope right? No, Jesus wasn’t wrong and the Pope isn’t right, if this is what he wants to do.
 

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I read that the Pope wants to change the Lord’s Prayer. Jesus told us to pray: “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” but the Pope, according to the article, thinks this makes God look bad. Was Jesus wrong and the Pope right? No, Jesus wasn’t wrong and the Pope isn’t right, if this is what he wants to do.
Do you have a link?

I agree it cannot be changed, btw.
 
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Tom 1

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I read that the Pope wants to change the Lord’s Prayer. Jesus told us to pray: “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” but the Pope, according to the article, thinks this makes God look bad. Was Jesus wrong and the Pope right? No, Jesus wasn’t wrong and the Pope isn’t right, if this is what he wants to do.

He’s not after changing the prayer, just how it has been translated
 
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Phil 1:21

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I read that the Pope wants to change the Lord’s Prayer. Jesus told us to pray: “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” but the Pope, according to the article, thinks this makes God look bad. Was Jesus wrong and the Pope right? No, Jesus wasn’t wrong and the Pope isn’t right, if this is what he wants to do.
Based on a lot of the things this pope has said, I'm frankly surprised he doesn't want to change it even more. To me, being non-Catholic, it's a big "meh." He could add the Teletubbies theme song to the liturgy and it wouldn't mean anything to me.
 
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Albion

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Do you have a link?

I agree it cannot be changed, btw.
That part of the prayer has long been known to be prone to misunderstanding, but tinkering with the Creed or the Lords Prayer is something that leads ultimately to either reducing the wondrous things of God down to the level of baby talk or, if not that, changing the meaning. Its much better to teach our people what the meaning is! We teach them a hundred other things, so this shouldn't be too challenging.
 
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Tom 1

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That part of the prayer has long been known to be prone to misunderstanding, but tinkering with the Creed or the Lords Prayer is something that leads ultimately to either reducing the wondrous things of God down to the level of baby talk or, if not that, changing the meaning. Its much better to teach our people what the meaning is! We teach them a hundred other things, so this shouldn't be too challenging.

He’s got a point though. As it reads now, it’s implying, or just saying directly, that God leads us into temptation, so we should ask him not to.
 
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Dave G.

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I'd like to see the link stating exactly what it is the pope wants to do. I doubt I'll ever read it any different than I have anyway because I pray and even preach on it right out of my existing NKJV. But I have to admit that I have questioned the wording regarding not leading us into temptation, that could indeed be mis translated. So I'd like to see what he is up to just for clarity sake..
 
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Phil 1:21

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I'd like to see the link stating exactly what it is the pope wants to do. I doubt I'll ever read it any different than I have anyway because I pray and even preach on it right out of my existing NKJV. But I have to admit that I have questioned the wording regarding not leading us into temptation, that could indeed be mis translated. So I'd like to see what he is up to just for clarity sake..
Pope wants Lord's Prayer changed
 
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Halbhh

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I read that the Pope wants to change the Lord’s Prayer. Jesus told us to pray: “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” but the Pope, according to the article, thinks this makes God look bad. Was Jesus wrong and the Pope right? No, Jesus wasn’t wrong and the Pope isn’t right, if this is what he wants to do.

Some cross references I am seeing at BibleHub's Pulpit Commentary under the verse Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.':

Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Mark 14:38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Luke 22:46 "Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

(Under the first few commentaries at BibleHub on this verse is a link to more, with additional considerations of the greek wording: Matthew 6:13 Commentaries)
---
Notice first that the prayer in Matthew is not identical to the prayer in Luke (chapter 11) superficially, and also that Matthew has a wonderful extra phrasing near the beginning.

When I've prayed the Lord's Prayer I've taken that when I prayed "Lead us not into temptation" I'm praying to the Father that He not test or allow us to be tested too severely, but that instead He help us out of situations of temptation.

We are actually praying for help out of situations that would be severely testing temptations.

Once you get that meaning, you could possibly use whichever translation, or even the different wording in another translation, but you are asking for that same help.

Also, when we pray "and deliver us from the evil one" it is also equal as best I understand if you pray the other wording "and deliver us from evil".

But, even so, at times I pray both wordings, because I think that in addition to the evil one, there is also evil we can have ourselves to be delivered from, so we can ask for both kinds of delivering. Of course, generally people praying "and deliver us from evil" are doing just that.
 
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Tom 1

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I don’t read Greek but here’s a translation from another version, translated into English:
‘And do not let us give way to temptation’
Obviously there are options here in how the Greek text can be translated. Maybe implying that God leads us into temptation isn’t the best way to translate it.
 
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TerryWoodenpic

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The earliest written version of the lords prayer can be found in the Didache
It translates as...

Our Father,the one in heaven,
your name be made holy,
your kingdom come,
your will be born upon earth as in heaven,
give us this day our loaf that is coming,
and forgive us our debt at the final judgement
as we likewise now forgive our debtors.
and do not lead us into the trial of the last days
but deliver us from that evil
because yours is the power and glory forever



Which contains the meaning...

Our Heavenly Father,
May your name be holy throughout the world
and your kingdom established among us,
so that the earth, like heaven, obeys your will.
may we soon be gathered in to your kingdom
and be forgiven at the final judgement,
as we have forgiven others.
but spare us on the day of trial
and from the evil of the last days.
because yours is the power and glory forever.


This is an attempt to give "the essence" of this Lords Prayer using the above translation, and some of the logic from the commentary of Aaron Milavec's book, as a guide to the sense.

“our heavenly father”makes clear which father;”May your name....”his name is already holy, this makes the wish clear for it to be so everywhere; “your kingdom...”makes clear the imperative for it to be established here;

“may we soon be gathered in to your kingdom “ is a reference to the thought that is given in the didache Eucharist, comparing the gathering of the grain into a loaf to the gathering of the people into the kingdom, and the desire that it should be soon.

I have left open “what” we are to be forgiven. As it is a reciprocal of what we forgive.

The second coming and the end of times was thought to be imminent.. “but spare us....” the trial and the evil of the last days are inevitable, except for the elect, who they hope to be amongst. All the petitions would seem to be eschatological and referring to one time events.

The prayer is a collective petition to God, by his people, for the establishment of his kingdom on earth. And for their successful place within it. When we repeat it as individuals we do so as one of many of the petitioners.
 
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Dave G.

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I watched a Fox report on this and read the article as well. Jesus spoke Aramaic, the first translation to Greek, the second Latin, then our English. If you go back to the original it should read more like Don't let us fall into temptation.

I like that. Incidentally it's already that way in the French translation.
 
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TerryWoodenpic

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Do you have a link?

I agree it cannot be changed, btw.


It has been changed many times by many churches to make better sense in the idiom of the day and place.
Today its proper meaning has all but been lost to us, as it does not translate well into modern idiom.
 
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Albion

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He’s got a point though. As it reads now, it’s implying, or just saying directly, that God leads us into temptation, so we should ask him not to.
But you know better, don't you? That shows that all that is needed is a simple dose of teaching.

We do that all the time when it comes to other difficult or obscure "church" language.

And we need to bear in mind that other such modifications have been made by other people or churches in order to remedy something else thought to be easily misunderstood. "Deliver us from Evil" is one such. Is that understood to refer to evil deeds...or to "the Evil One?"
 
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TerryWoodenpic

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I watched a Fox report on this and read the article as well. Jesus spoke Arabic, the first translation to Greek, the second Latin, then our English. If you go back to the original it should read more like Don't let us fall into temptation.

I like that. Incidentally it's already that way in the French translation.
I am sure you mean Aramaic... not much like Arabic.....
when it first came to be written down Greek was used.
 
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paul1149

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The controversy seems to turn on a common Hebrew idiom, whereby God is actively credited for that which He merely allows. We see this throughout the OT, as in Isaiah, where God says "I create evil". Yet we know that God is pure Light and does not create evil (as in James and 3 John, for instance). Lamentations 3 explains this a bit when it tells us He does not afflict willingly. The implication is He does afflict, but only out of necessity. IOW, He allows it.

(Whether the Hebrewism carries into the Aramaic I don't know, but my guess is that it does. The translation of the Peshitta that I read has the same translation as most of us are used to, however.)

So God's character isn't at stake here, but how many young in the faith know that? How to render verses like this are the kinds of questions translators must deal with. I personally think there is room for adding nuance to the verse.

Basically, I think the verse means we really don't want to sin; protect us from falling into sin; I am willing to undergo Your discipline, however grievous it may be, rather than sin against You; help me to navigate these circumstances in a way that benefits me and brings pleasure to you.
 
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Tom 1

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But you know better, don't you? That shows that all that is needed is a simple dose of teaching.

Yes I think that’s true. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being accurate though, and as clear as possible. One of my first experiences with the bible was picking it up and simply not understanding what I read - things that aren’t clear or give a wrong impression of a key idea that then needs to be explained could be difficult e.g for new converts from other religions. In general in life and work etc I find it useful to revise what I’m doing periodically and that’s not a bad general principle for churches either I think
 
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There are so many bible verses that are misunderstood cos of the way they are written. Different translated bible version can be helpful when trying to understand such verses. Personally, I tend to stick with reading ESV bible version as I find it quite clear and easy to read, but in the end it doesn't matter what bible translation version you read as long as you are living by it. Yes, there is danger that some versions are misleading and don't translate the word quite correctly, and I've found that even with so many versions. But anyway, I quite like the way the NLT version words these particular verse

"And don't let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one." - Matthew 6:13
 
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