The politicization of Christianity

Ignatius the Kiwi

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You're moving the goalpost. You were claiming the vote is monolithic, not "by and large."

How is the black vote for the Democrats not monolithic?



You're moving the goalpost again.

No, you just refuse to see the religious nature Democrats have. I'll agree it's different from the religious nature republicans have, but it's still there.



You ought to be experiencing cognitive dissonance between that statement and your last statement.

You don't think it's cognitive dissonance to adhere to a religion and all your political policies are contra to your deeply held religious beliefs? Like, all of them? Think of Joe Biden. Personally supports Homosexuality despite his Church saying it's against nature. Loves abortion and loves contraception, to the point he wants to force nuns to provide it in their healthcare plan.


The DNC does not make God part of their political platform. The GOP explicitly does. To the degree the GOP fails to act in a Godly manner or fails to select a Godly candidate--while claiming to be the party of God--Republicans are being the hypocrites that the Pharisees were.

Let's agree then that it's bad for the Republicans to expect complete Godliness of their candidate. It's good that many Republican's have abandoned that expectation, right? After all, you don't care if your candidate is devout? Though it's not as if all Republican's feel this way and I doubt all Evangelicals thought of Trump as a perfect man. Why then did they vote for him? Probably because they saw him as the person who would get their political priorities through. Which is what the Republicans should have been doing all along.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Strawman argument. I did not say "utterly detached." I said "a step detached."

Daniel operated within the government of Nebuchadnezzar, but he was detached enough that he never accepted the government of Babylon as his own government, and he was detached enough that when the government changed to Darius, he easily changed with it...Daniel did not cling to the outgoing regime, and that was obvious even to Darius.

Define detachment. Is that what any of us are doing on these forums when we discuss politics? Would you say you're detached from political concerns? If you are going to recommend us being detached, why not embody that in yourself and stop talking about politics? Or is that you only want conservatives to be detached while the left has full control of the wheel of power?
 
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rjs330

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We weren’t just flinging our doors open to anybody. The Trump administration cut the refugee resettlement cap every year it was in office, and through cap reductions and administrative foot-dragging, reduced the number of refugees resettled each year by about 87%.

Fact Sheet: U.S. Refugee Resettlement - National Immigration Forum

That’s not a pro-life policy. That’s not a Christian policy. It’s a white nationalist policy. That you heard nary a peep about it from evangelical leaders points to what their true motivations are.

No we aren't flinging our doors open. You see the difference here is you believe the reduction was bad. We believe the reduction was necessary. Now we could argue whether the reduction was too much or not. But that would be a political conversation and not a religious one.

Here is the problem. The liberal Christians accuse us of not being Christian enough if we believe in a reduction. And you accuse us of white nationalism. How one earth do you possibly expect to work with us with those kinds of statements?

And how in the world can you accuse us of being too involved in politics when you are just as involved and driven by your ideas of Christianity in politics. Because allowing all those refugees is Christian.

You have no credibility. In fact you are doing exactly what the Bible says when it speaks about a hypothetical position.

We don't accuse you of being a crappy Christian or unChristian because you support a Democrat platform. Yet you feel free to lecture us about our Christianity. You don't have credibility.
 
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rjs330

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I'm a lifelong Republican and the only people who have ever tried to silence me for my political views have been Trump supporters and most of them are conservative Christians. In fact, I've been cyber bullied, disparaged, ridiculed, and harassed by some Trump supporters in the last 5 years. I've been accused of being anti-Christian and anti-American. A couple of them accused me of being a traitor to my country. I've been called disparaging names like 'a minion of Satan,' 'a demonrat,' and 'a child of the devil.' I was told that I'm going to hell because I voted for Biden. I have family members who no longer speak for me because I oppose Trump. I have former friends who won't speak to me either.

I've had other conservatives I've known for years turn against me and viciously attack my character, my faith, and my patriotism for America. For the record, I haven't experienced any malice, hostility, and abusive treatment from liberals. I've had disagreements with liberals over political issues, but none of them have ever treated me with utter disdain the way other conservatives have treated me.

Ditto from the other side. Liberal Christians do the exact same thing. You see it on this forum all the time.

I guess there are mean people everywhere. But the majority of them on on the left. You know how many kids haven't let their parents participate in their grandchildrens lives because they voted for Trump? Or how many kids don't speak to their parents because they voted for Trump?

I don't know where youve been but the liberals have been treating conservatives with malice, hostility, abuse and disdain for years now.

I could post link after link of their abusive treatment of conservatives. Who are the people involved in the cancel culture? Who are the ones doing everything they can to shut down people they don't want to hear? Who are the ones telling us that people who voted for Trump should be put on a list for reeducating? Who are the ones saying children of Trump voters should be removed from their parents for reeducation. Who are the ones saying Trump voters or supporters should no longer be allowed to hold jobs.
Please don't tell me how nice they are.

Complete list of attacks on supporters of President Trump

The problem is that the right has finally gotten fed up with it and are attacking back. It's NOT the right thing to do. We shouldn't be attacking back. But let's be clear. It's not Christian conservatives that are the primary attackers.

And will you condemn all those attacks on conservatives just a vehemently as you condemn the attacks on liberals? Because if you do you have joined us. Because we unequivocally state that attacks like you suffered are inexcusable. And the attacks on the capital are just as inexcusable and I condemn them all. We should not sink to the level of what the left has been doing for years.
 
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iluvatar5150

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No we aren't flinging our doors open. You see the difference here is you believe the reduction was bad. We believe the reduction was necessary. Now we could argue whether the reduction was too much or not. But that would be a political conversation and not a religious one.

On what basis do you believe the reduction was necessary? I've yet to see a well-reasoned argument for this.

The religious aspect is our Christian command to help to poor and the victimized. I focused on the refugee resettlements because Christians are very clearly commanded to help these populations and it's clearly a policy in which the Trump administration catered to certain nativist elements of the right while other elements of the right essentially turned a blind eye.

Here is the problem. The liberal Christians accuse us of not being Christian enough if we believe in a reduction. And you accuse us of white nationalism. How one earth do you possibly expect to work with us with those kinds of statements?

I expect you to look inward and perform some self-examination to see if the allegations are accurate. If they're accurate, I expect you to repent and change course. If they're not accurate, then I expect a well-reasoned response, articulating why you think it's prudent to accept fewer refugees (or zero, as seemed to be the ultimate goal), and whatever data you have to support your argument.

And how in the world can you accuse us of being too involved in politics when you are just as involved and driven by your ideas of Christianity in politics. Because allowing all those refugees is Christian.

I haven't accused you of being "too involved in politics." That's a strawman driven by what I have to assume is your failure to accurately understand my argument.

You have no credibility. In fact you are doing exactly what the Bible says when it speaks about a hypothetical position.

I think you meant "hypocritical."

We don't accuse you of being a crappy Christian or unChristian because you support a Democrat platform. Yet you feel free to lecture us about our Christianity. You don't have credibility.

If you want to talk about credibility, try understanding my position first, instead of tearing down this simple-minded straw man you've constructed.

I don't accuse you of being a crappy Christian because you support the Republican platform. I accuse people of being crappy Christians for wrapping up their identities in the Republican party, for conflating Republican policy positions with Christian doctrine, for fear mongering and lying about their political opponents, for propagating myriad conspiracy theories, for describing their political opponents as demonic, and for whitewashing and presenting as appropriate obviously sinful or unChristian behavior from their political allies.
 
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iluvatar5150

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I don't know where youve been but the liberals have been treating conservatives with malice, hostility, abuse and disdain for years now.

I could post link after link of their abusive treatment of conservatives. Who are the people involved in the cancel culture? Who are the ones doing everything they can to shut down people they don't want to hear? Who are the ones telling us that people who voted for Trump should be put on a list for reeducating? Who are the ones saying children of Trump voters should be removed from their parents for reeducation. Who are the ones saying Trump voters or supporters should no longer be allowed to hold jobs.
Please don't tell me how nice they are.

Conservatives had a virtual monopoly on "cancel culture" for millenia - "canceling" has been standard operating procedure for religious groups dating back before Christ. One could argue that Christ himself was a victim of religious cancel culture, but we can go on through the inquisition, witch trials, excommunications, shunnings, all manner of exiles through the colonial period both in Europe and the New World. Then once the US is founded, we've got several incarnations of racial and ethnic segregation and centuries of racial violence, canceling of gays and AIDS patients, the Mccarthy hearings and blacklisting of communists, and more recently, several attempted boycotts against corporations sympathetic to progressive causes.

I don't like a lot of what passes for cancel culture, either, but this is just your own chickens coming home to roost. You guys have owned "canceling" since the very beginning.

The problem is that the right has finally gotten fed up with it and are attacking back. It's NOT the right thing to do. We shouldn't be attacking back. But let's be clear. It's not Christian conservatives that are the primary attackers.

No, what's happened is that the left is finally attacking back and you don't like it.
 
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Thomas White

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The hyper-politization of Christianity, especially involving its close association with support for Donald Trump. will I believe make evangelism more difficult. Pew Research has documented over time how the number of those identifying themselves as Christians has declined in Europe and now in the US. The decline is most evident among young people. Christians I believe need to eschew divisive politics and focus on the Gospel without at the same time compromising their principals.

I believe that we and our beliefs will become more marginalized with persecution. Christianity has nothing to do with majority viewpoints, elections and democracy. "Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it." Only a minority through much of history lived committed Christian lives. Before Constantine Christianity was a small persecuted minority.

Our faith should be involved in everything we do, including political decisions, actions, and conversations. However, our politics should not be involved in our faith.
 
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Thomas White

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Have Christians made political blunders? Yes.

Have they contributed to the decline of Christianity? Yes... but these contributions are also a symptom of the decline.

"having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people." 2 Timothy 3:5



Never read it, I don't read apocryphal materials as I don't find them beneficial to my faith.



I don't... not even a little bit.



Getting more difficult by the hour, but I do try to.. I'm hoping some are just a little lost.



The world (and anything of it) are enemies of God, and the politics of the left demonstrate absolute enmity with God. That said, much of the political right isn't better.



To openly professing it and living it without retribution, whether social or legal? Yes...

I am a believer in Jesus Christ and celebrate his Gospel. My faith is in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit I am also a state committee member of the Democratic Party of Georgia and former Democratic chair of the county that had the largest 2020 Republican-to-Democrat flip in the nation. Do I demonstrate "enmity with God?"
 
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Thomas White

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Not to the degree that it exists on the right.



IME, that just isn't true. And unlike evangelical Republican voters, most Dem voters aren't sacrificing a bunch of other self-claimed values for the sake of voting for the Democrats.

Trump's policy on immigration, particularly as it relates to refugees and asylum seekers is blatantly anti-Christian, yet it merited little more than a shrug from most evangelicals, and hearty approval from some.

Trump's constant lying and antagonism are blatantly anti-Christian, yet Christians cheer his fighting spirit.

Trump's stoking of racism is blatantly anti-Christian, yet many Christians try to explain it away.

Trump's dysfunctional, disinterested management style is horrible stewardship, yet Christians for some reason cheer his business acumen.

Republican policies on things like protections for workers, customers, the environment, and a host of other categories of oppressed, abused, or marginalized people almost always skew in favor of the powerful - a value entirely at odds with Christian doctrine, yet Christians at best overlook this, and often adopt it as correct and proper.

I don't see the same thing happen on the left. No, not everybody is on the same page, but I struggle to think of any bloc of Dem voters who claims to hold one set of values, while in reality adopting a Democratic party platform that violates the majority of those values.



The issue we're discussing is how the politicization of Christianity has undermined evangelism. As fellow Christians, it is entirely appropriate for us to look at our own community and judge and correct its behavior - doing so is a core part of the faith. We would be remiss in our responsibilities as Christians if we didn't engage in that sort of self-reflection and self-correction.

It's fine if Christians look at the electoral options and decide that the Republican is better. But that isn't what's happened. What's happened is that large blocs of American evangelicals have supplanted religious doctrine with Republican political positions and subsumed Republican political figures into quasi-leadership religious roles.




For example:
Throughout his facebook page, Franklin Graham talks out of both sides of his mouth, praising calls for unity, while browbeating Dems and completely overlooking Trump's contributions to disunity and the covid spikes that his organization is working to fight:
Franklin Graham

Actually, maybe Graham's problem is straight up idolatry of Trump rather than mere Republicanism. This post is just moronic:
Franklin Graham

In another thread, we were discussing this large church in Texas, which has become little more than a mouthpiece for right-wing conspiracy theorists, hosting both Sidney Powell and Allen West.
KingdomLife

In a more personal example, when I moved to the Baltimore area a few years ago, I started googling around for churches and found one that listed in its statement of faith its position on taxation and small government.

It's not hard to find other cases of famous evangelical leaders publicly aligning themselves with right-wing ideology or massaging Christian doctrine to fit that ideology - contemporary evangelicalism is practically rife with it. The recent statement from the SBC seminary presidents regarding critical race theory is but one example.

May I qoute parts of this on other sites?
 
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RDKirk

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Define detachment. Is that what any of us are doing on these forums when we discuss politics? Would you say you're detached from political concerns? If you are going to recommend us being detached, why not embody that in yourself and stop talking about politics? Or is that you only want conservatives to be detached while the left has full control of the wheel of power?

I showed you a model for Christian detachment.

Another model--a current secular model--is displayed by the position taken by the uniformed leaders of the American armed forces.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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We weren’t just flinging our doors open to anybody. The Trump administration cut the refugee resettlement cap every year it was in office, and through cap reductions and administrative foot-dragging, reduced the number of refugees resettled each year by about 87%.

Fact Sheet: U.S. Refugee Resettlement - National Immigration Forum

That’s not a pro-life policy. That’s not a Christian policy. It’s a white nationalist policy. That you heard nary a peep about it from evangelical leaders points to what their true motivations are.

There is no “Christian” immigration/refugee policy. It’s a matter on which Christians are free to exercise their own judgement. Fundamentally, it’s an issue of national interest, not morality...
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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The DNC does not make God part of their political platform. The GOP explicitly does. To the degree the GOP fails to act in a Godly manner or fails to select a Godly candidate--while claiming to be the party of God--Republicans are being the hypocrites that the Pharisees were.

There are worse things than being a hypocrite - at least a hypocrite has standards to fall short of.
 
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RDKirk

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There are worse things than being a hypocrite - at least a hypocrite has standards to fall short of.

Knowing the standards and then falling short of them is much worse than not knowing standards at all.

Jesus said so.

The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. -- Luke 12
 
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Hazelelponi

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Knowing the standards and then falling short of them is much worse than not knowing standards at all.

Are you trying to say democrats don't know God's standards at all?

That's not a great argument in the Democrats make better Christians mantra...

Republicans are hypocrites and Democrats are clueless.. lol

I'm sorry, that was just funny... lol.
 
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RDKirk

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That's not a great argument in the Democrats make better Christians mantra...

I'm not making that argument.

In fact, all my remarks in this thread have been that Democrats are not trying to be "better Christians."
 
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Hazelelponi

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I'm not making that argument.

In fact, all my remarks in this thread have been that Democrats are not trying to be "better Christians."

Yet oddly, that's the claim of so many democrats.

When I voted for Trump it wasn't because of my faith, it was about having someone in office that would potentially forward positive conservative policies, not specifically Christian policies. Though my faith does serve to inform my politics, for example, the fact that I'm amillenial and not someone holding to a theonomic postmillenial eschatological position, which serves to make dominiomism/reconstructionism more than a little unpalatable to me... so on and so forth... but that's all my faith does; inform.

And while the GOP talks a good game, they don't, in my estimation walk the walk I believe to be actually conservative lately, although they are the best conservative game in town. However, in conservatism we share many of the same values.

Likewise, I think social justice theories as upheld by the purveyors of said theories has nothing to do with God's justice, and indeed are antithetical to the justice of God, so I can't as a Christian support said policies in governance, which democratic policies now do. (I do however, uphold God's justice, and policies which more closely align with this type of justice in our society.)

So does my faith have a tendency to inform my politics? Yes... to the best of my ability I try to vote as closely as I am able within my beliefs... but is my politics 100% about my faith? No... in the end I would be apolitical if my voting patterns had to perfectly align with all my beliefs - because my true citizenship is not here.

I can understand that dems aren't voting with some belief that the party is the perfect expression of their faith, but most claim that they are, in fact, the "better" Christians, all while attacking conservatives for their political positions.
 
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Andrewn

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This is an incorrect supposition... people do care, but also see limits on what we can do as a nation. First, if we opened our borders to just anyone and everyone who wanted to live here, our system would break down. Therefore, we have a legal form of immigration and determine how many immigrants we are able to accept every year.
Fear of scarcity.

Second. We don't believe everyone in the world wants to come for pure reasons. Some literally want to come to attack us - so determining the who of who gets to come is important, through a vetting process that attempts to weed out people who are our enemies, and enemies to our western way of life. Just throwing our borders open is not a proper way, as a welfare state, to run our state.
Fear of otherness.

I'm not saying that fear is a completely useless emotion. It's one of our 6 basic emotions and God created it in us for a warning. But He also says, "Love casts out fear" (1Joh 4:18). We as wealthy nations will have to deal with this paradox in view of the talents that God us.

It's important to help all that is possible to help, in perpetuity... not for a day and be done forever.
True. Once upon a time, I hoped that NAFTA would be extended to the poor countries of Central America. What happened in the past 4 years was the opposite. It was changed to benefit the "America Alone" ideology.

Guatemala troops, police break up caravan of weary migrants

Likewise, I think social justice theories as upheld by the purveyors of said theories has nothing to do with God's justice, and indeed are antithetical to the justice of God, so I can't as a Christian support said policies in governance, which democratic policies now do. (I do however, uphold God's justice, and policies which more closely align with this type of justice in our society.)
This is where we disagree. This great society would not exist without the social reforms of Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Fear of scarcity.

No, that's not. It's called living in reality.

When the education system has x many teachers with x many students, it can only accept x many more students until more teachers can be educated, licensed, and sent into the job market.

If you throw a great numbers (millions and millions) of new non English speakers into the mix before you have enough bilingual teachers, you crash the educations system. And the teachers HAVE to be bilingual.. so granted if the immigrants are all coming from one area that's less of an issue than multiple areas. When your pulling from multiple areas with a need for teachers fluent in multiple languages, you put greater stress on the need for more teachers who are capable in more languages.

And thats just the education system. There are plenty more systems: there's housing, transportation and more...

Slamming borders open does no one any favors, and your looking at infuxes the sizes of countries, not just a few random people coming in

Fear of otherness.

I'm not saying that fear is a completely useless emotion. It's one of our 6 basic emotions and God created it in us for a warning. But He also says, "Love casts out fear" (1Joh 4:18). We as wealthy nations will have to deal with this paradox in view of the talents that God us.

I was formerly married to a "potential" terrorist (only potential because he was removed from this country and barred from reentry), I actually know what's in this world more than most. That's not fear, that's knowledge of what exists in actually and have realistic expectations...

I trust God. But I love my neighbor enough to make sure they are safe and get to live in ignorance of the things I've had to face head on.

True. Once upon a time, I hoped that NAFTA would be extended to the poor countries of Central America. What happened in the past 4 years was the opposite. It was changed to benefit the "America Alone" ideology.

No, it was changed to the benefit of all of us.. Mexico, Canada and the U.S. Nancy Pelosi even said it was the best trade agreement we've ever had and should be a model for all future trade agreements.

Of course, she tried to walk that one back after the far left attacked her for actually giving praise to something Trump and the republicans were a part of... she forgot the first rule of the party - orange man bad...

(Of course, the second rule is about to be "conservatives evil, be very afraid", because we must be terrified of something... which I think is hilarious considering I'm a conservative and don't even believe in self defense, so this is going to be a fun ride indeed...[please note the sarcastic tone here, since recently I've found out from talking heads that I'm supposedly as terrifying as Al-Qaeda, and should be treated as such, and people have zero idea how offensive that is, or they do, and just don't care] )

Guatemala troops, police break up caravan of weary migrants

^^^ they wouldn't be trying to come at all if not for Biden promising that anyone who wanted in could come in in the first 100 days of the administration, and no one would be deported, and his administration would give all illegal immigrants blanket amnesty and full citizenship...

Now the Biden administration is wanting to walk that back, after people heard his open invitation and are leaving to come. It's sheer stupidity. All of it.
 
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rjs330

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Conservatives had a virtual monopoly on "cancel culture" for millenia - "canceling" has been standard operating procedure for religious groups dating back before Christ. One could argue that Christ himself was a victim of religious cancel culture, but we can go on through the inquisition, witch trials, excommunications, shunnings, all manner of exiles through the colonial period both in Europe and the New World. Then once the US is founded, we've got several incarnations of racial and ethnic segregation and centuries of racial violence, canceling of gays and AIDS patients, the Mccarthy hearings and blacklisting of communists, and more recently, several attempted boycotts against corporations sympathetic to progressive causes.

I don't like a lot of what passes for cancel culture, either, but this is just your own chickens coming home to roost. You guys have owned "canceling" since the very beginning.



No, what's happened is that the left is finally attacking back and you don't like it.

Whoa there. It was the Democrats that were involved in the racist laws of the south and the owning of slaves. That wasn't Republicans.

Secondly we conservatives have grown past the Mcarthy hearings etc. They are long gone. It's the liberals blacklisting conservative and Christian actors. And hollywood didn't blacklist liberals back in the day. They only blacklisted who they believed to be communist. And since everyone seems to agree that blacklisting is bad, then why are the liberals doing it now?

And don't forget the liberals are as racist as anyone. Woodrow Wilson was a horrible racist as was Johnson. It's the left that's keeping the poor blacks enslaved. We want to set them free. And Trump was doing a great job at that.

So we agree that cancel culture is bad, what are you leftists cancelling people and shutting down free speech. It's the left that rioted all summer destroying cities. The left is initiating the boycotts and threatening businesses. It's liberals who caused the enormous amount of injuries during the past summer rioting. And what did we hear from the left? Excuses and defense of the indefensible. Do you see all the news media, and the big conservative pundits defending what happened in the capital? No you don't. You don't hear us on these forums defending it either. But the left sure defended their side.

Have you forgotten that it's the left that has killed more people than any other ideology? The uncountable number if people who died or were downright murdered by left wing ideology is astounding. Communism and Socialist goverenments have caused the death and suffering of untold numbers if people.

Twitter cancels Trump and lies about him. They canceled his tweets or threw question marks at them. Yet they allowed and continued to allow the false accusations against Trump from the Democrats about Trump colluding with Russia. They called him a traitor and a Putin puppet, yet that was allowed. And they never had any actual evidence of it. Radical leftists used twitter to engender riots in the street but they weren't cancelled. Genocidal governments are allowed to tweet, yet Trump is cancelled.

Hypocrisy: Twitter Censors Trump, But Not Communist Chinese Propaganda

Twitter’s grotesque hypocrisy rages on

Sins That Cry To Heaven For Vengeance: Tucker Calls Out Twitter's Hypocrisy Over Latest Policy Stance

The left is about to participate on the largest shut down of freedom and harassment weve seen in a long time. While this country has attempted to move forward and put the things if the past behind us, recognize the bad the left is actively participating in evil acts of harassment, violence, and the shut down of human rights.
 
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