The plain silliness of American Politics

[DoubtingThomas29]

I got to admit politics have gotten silly in America. It seems like people think Obama is the messiah or something, and guess what he gets to washington, and he jumps right all over that talk radio Rush Limbaugh and Fox news, and what do the pundits got to say about it on TV? That he ran on the campaign that he was suppose to be above Washington, and be like Gandhi or the reincarnation of Jesus Christ or some silliness like that.

I just heard on the morning show that no matter who is president over the entire next ten years the government will borrow more money than it takes in till 2019. Wow, that is incredible, the debt is just going to go up into the dozens of trillions of dollars, and I think the only solution is to quite creating money as debt but create it as value. Can you imagine if the debt was 24 trillion dollars in seven years' time. No one can fix this problem unless the whole world's zietgeist towards creating money as debt changes. However having access to health care despite not being able to pay for it will be nice, but nice isn't good enough folks, there is just too much money getting created as debt there really is.

Thoughts on that? Yes, no, or maybe so?

 

[nvxplorer]

I got to admit politics have gotten silly in America. It seems like people think Obama is the messiah or something, and guess what he gets to washington, and he jumps right all over that talk radio Rush Limbaugh and Fox news, and what do the pundits got to say about it on TV? That he ran on the campaign that he was suppose to be above Washington, and be like Gandhi or the reincarnation of Jesus Christ or some silliness like that.

I just heard on the morning show that no matter who is president over the entire next ten years the government will borrow more money than it takes in till 2019. Wow, that is incredible, the debt is just going to go up into the dozens of trillions of dollars, and I think the only solution is to quite creating money as debt but create it as value. Can you imagine if the debt was 24 trillion dollars in seven years' time. No one can fix this problem unless the whole world's zietgeist towards creating money as debt changes. However having access to health care despite not being able to pay for it will be nice, but nice isn't good enough folks, there is just too much money getting created as debt there really is.

Thoughts on that? Yes, no, or maybe so?

I disagree with the first paragraph, but let's put that aside.

What do you mean by "creating money as value?" Are you suggesting reducing access to credit?

 

[DoubtingThomas29]

Tell you what here is a site that Joebudda pointed out to me if you are interested in learning about stopping the creation of money as debt. Joebudda is oe of the posters here, enjoy.

Money as Debt

 

[tulc]

Tell you what here is a site that Joebudda pointed out to me if you are interested in learning about stopping the creation of money as debt. Joebudda is oe of the posters here, enjoy.

Money as Debt

So in order to understand your point people have to buy a DVD?
tulc(thinks a summery might be nice)

 

[Nathan45]

european countries spend less money than we do on healthcare and get better results.

the reason health care is so bad and expensive in the U.S. is because
1) We don't have any good method of paying for universal basic care.
2) Hospitals are required to take anyone, but ONLY if it's an emergency.

which means we spend an exorbinant amount of money on emergency care for people with life threatening conditions, when we could have spent just a few bucks on that same person 6 months earlier to prevent it all.

we have people with very simple illnesses who cannot get treatment for it until it is an emergency, we have people dying of common infections, common diseases, or with all kinds of horrible conplications, because they couldn't afford to see a doctor until it was an emergency.

In addition, because hospitals and doctors get payed on commission in this country, not on salary, and they get payed by people who can afford it, not by people who need it, there's a very large amount of waste in the healthcare system where rich people get tests and procedures and operations that they don't even need and poor people get jack squat.

providing universal healthcare, if done properly, will reduce healthcare costs.

...

and the only people i see calling Obama the messiah are right-wingers.

 

[Nathan45]

So in order to understand your point people have to buy a DVD?
tulc(thinks a summery might be nice)

it's on google video if it's the video i'm thinking of... it's actually a good watch, i'd recommend it.

i dug up the google video link:
Money As Debt

 

[allhart]

european countries spend less money than we do on healthcare and get better results.

the reason health care is so bad and expensive in the U.S. is because
1) We don't have any good method of paying for universal basic care.
2) Hospitals are required to take anyone, but ONLY if it's an emergency.

which means we spend an exorbinant amount of money on emergency care for people with life threatening conditions, when we could have spent just a few bucks on that same person 6 months earlier to prevent it all.

we have people with very simple illnesses who cannot get treatment for it until it is an emergency, we have people dying of common infections, common diseases, or with all kinds of horrible conplications, because they couldn't afford to see a doctor until it was an emergency.

In addition, because hospitals and doctors get payed on commission in this country, not on salary, and they get payed by people who can afford it, not by people who need it, there's a very large amount of waste in the healthcare system where rich people get tests and procedures and operations that they don't even need and poor people get jack squat.

providing universal healthcare, if done properly, will reduce healthcare costs.

...

and the only people i see calling Obama the messiah are right-wingers.

The now generation speaks about me, I, I again!

 

[tulc]

The now generation speaks about me, I, I again!

uhmmm...what?
tulc(must have missed something)

 

[Nathan45]

i don't get it either.

The now generation speaks about me, I, I again!

allhart, can you rephrase this thought in a way that makes sense? thank you.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Nobody acts like Obama is some sort of Messiah, except for nonObama supporters who use it as a weapon, so I'm hesitant to even debate you, because I think I know where you already stand. I'm not sure what you're asking here. Obama is not the American government, and he does not dictate, as we are seeing with the healthcare debate... with a majorting dem Congress I might add, where this country goes.

You are asking a lot of different questions.

I will touch on healthcare. For me, I don't think healthcare will be as cheap as Dems pretend it will be, and I also don't think it will be as expensive as Repubs pretend it will be. Both are trying to convince the public that they are right, so both are misrepresenting reality. All I know is that, me personally, I am willing to pay more taxes for free healthcare. Most things that government takes my money for, I do not support, but this I do. In my heart, I know that my money is better off being spent towards healthcare than it is the military and various wars. If less can go to the military and more towards healthcare, I'll be greatful, but I doubt that will happen, but I do want the government to fund healthcare. Others do not, but we don't get to pick where our money goes, and to be truthful, if I have to fund things I don't like, why don't others? Especially for something so... ethical and moral as healthcare?

 

[allhart]

i don't get it either.



allhart, can you rephrase this thought in a way that makes sense? thank you.

usdebtclock.org Get it! I'm confused. For we can want all day long doesn't mean it's going to workout for the best! And all you young people don't think you have to work for it. You expect things right now and think of only you! Your time is come in! Nothings ever for free, nor anything worth while comes with easy! You are not owed anything even if you have done everything the right way!

Perseverance! I have seen big guys get knocked down and never "want" to get back up. While the little guy keeps coming back for more!

 

[Nathan45]

Tell you what here is a site that Joebudda pointed out to me if you are interested in learning about stopping the creation of money as debt. Joebudda is oe of the posters here, enjoy.

Money as Debt

and FYI, government is not the problem here, it's the banks. go to about 36:40 of the video. the video basically advocates for Keynesian economics. Just because Joebudda posted it doesn't mean it's suggested solutions to the problems of fractional reserve banking are libertarian.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

usdebtclock.org Get it! I'm confused. For we can want all day long doesn't mean it's going to workout for the best! And all you young people don't think you have to work for it. You expect things right now and think of only you! Your time is come in! Nothings ever for free, nor anything worth while comes with easy! You are not owed anything even if you have done everything the right way!

What? I understand that we are in debt... good thing that all that debt has been compiled by things other than healthcare... good thing we can shift money from those things to healthcare, a basic right.... And really, the people that think healthcare is a right may leave the country if they feel that strongly and move to..... ummm, one of those great countries that don't have free healthcare... I just can't think of one right now, sorry.

 

[allhart]

What? I understand that we are in debt... good thing that all that debt has been compiled by things other than healthcare... good thing we can shift money from those things to healthcare, a basic right.... And really, the people that think healthcare is a right may leave the country if they feel that strongly and move to..... ummm, one of those great countries that don't have free healthcare... I just can't think of one right now, sorry.

Look at the usdebtclock and the liability's that doesn't even include the health-care bill or the deficits! Income to outcome with no margin and by the way more going out in interest than tax revenues coming in~!

 

[allhart]

Want more tax revenue then cut taxes across the board. For Private and industry!

However big Government can't manage profits. they only know how to spend! Lock boxes are made to scam over!

 

[Saving Hawaii]

Tell you what here is a site that Joebudda pointed out to me if you are interested in learning about stopping the creation of money as debt. Joebudda is oe of the posters here, enjoy.

Money as Debt

I'm always a little wary of this stuff, but I watched it and there was some stuff that wasn't clicking all that well in my head. I then dug up a pretty well-articulated explanation of where "Money as Debt" went off track. Pretty lengthy, but it explains the issues with this film (and gives credit where due) in an easy to understand manner. Sums it up a lot better than I could. Give it a look; always good when you here some controversial to see what its critics would argue in return.

 

[Nathan45]

I'm always a little wary of this stuff, but I watched it and there was some stuff that wasn't clicking all that well in my head. I then dug up a pretty well-articulated explanation of where "Money as Debt" went off track.

do you have a link to this? and where does the video go off track?

 

[Saving Hawaii]

do you have a link to this? and where does the video go off track?

Arggh... hate it when you forget to post the link.

Sounds Familiar...: Money as debt

The chap appears to be a grad student with a penchant for the Chicago school of econ... but that's forgivable as he's the only person I could find that actually took the time to write a critique of the film and did so with pretty basic and uncontroversial concepts.

 

[chaz345]

european countries spend less money than we do on healthcare and get better results.

the reason health care is so bad and expensive in the U.S. is because
1) We don't have any good method of paying for universal basic care.
2) Hospitals are required to take anyone, but ONLY if it's an emergency.

which means we spend an exorbinant amount of money on emergency care for people with life threatening conditions, when we could have spent just a few bucks on that same person 6 months earlier to prevent it all.

we have people with very simple illnesses who cannot get treatment for it until it is an emergency, we have people dying of common infections, common diseases, or with all kinds of horrible conplications, because they couldn't afford to see a doctor until it was an emergency.

In addition, because hospitals and doctors get payed on commission in this country, not on salary, and they get payed by people who can afford it, not by people who need it, there's a very large amount of waste in the healthcare system where rich people get tests and procedures and operations that they don't even need and poor people get jack squat.

providing universal healthcare, if done properly, will reduce healthcare costs.

...

and the only people i see calling Obama the messiah are right-wingers.

Eliminating insurance for basic preventative care and small easily treatable illnesses would do the trick too. Without insurance involved the cost of typical 15 minute doctor's 15 minute visit whatever minor condition would drop to the point where it was affordable for nearly all.

The problem with the US healthcare system is that a mechanism intended to deal with large unexpected costs has come to be a payment method for everything. It's as if car insurance covered oil changes, tires and everyting else that went wrong.

Go look at the dictionary definition of insurance and you'll see nothing even close to what health insurance looks like. The problem is, in using insurance the way we are we're trying to put a screw in with a hammer.

With insurance out of the picture for basic care, costs plummet because the Doctors don't have to deal with more hours of paperwork than they do on patient care and because the consumer would care about the cost and would shop around for the best price.

Insurance could then be used for large unexpected things and I'm quite sure that the cost of such a policy plus our out of pocket for routine stuff would be far less than what we bay for coverage now.

 

[Nathan45]

Eliminating insurance for basic preventative care and small easily treatable illnesses would do the trick too. Without insurance involved the cost of typical 15 minute doctor's 15 minute visit whatever minor condition would drop to the point where it was affordable for nearly all.

The problem with the US healthcare system is that a mechanism intended to deal with large unexpected costs has come to be a payment method for everything. It's as if car insurance covered oil changes, tires and everyting else that went wrong.

Go look at the dictionary definition of insurance and you'll see nothing even close to what health insurance looks like. The problem is, in using insurance the way we are we're trying to put a screw in with a hammer.

With insurance out of the picture for basic care, costs plummet because the Doctors don't have to deal with more hours of paperwork than they do on patient care and because the consumer would care about the cost and would shop around for the best price.

Insurance could then be used for large unexpected things and I'm quite sure that the cost of such a policy plus our out of pocket for routine stuff would be far less than what we bay for coverage now.

I agree that insurance is doing things that it was never intended to do. the problem is that there's a huge power vacuum where the government not only doesn't provide basic services, it regulates the industry in such a way as to create monopolies and prevent anyone but select insurance companies from providing coverage.

IMO, basic health care is something that should be payed for by the government, similar to police services, fire departments and public schools.

as for everyone being able to afford basic care if insurance companies got out of it... i agree that getting rid of the insurance companies would make it cheaper, however i don't think you realize how poor some people are. certainly not everyone could afford it. I think that society can chip in money for basic care for everyone, and save money in the long term by not having to spend it on emergency treatment for the same people it refused to care for.

right now the system is set up in such a way that people get punished for going to the doctor until it's too late... not only can they not afford the doctor's visit, if they get diagnosed with any serious illness they will become permanently unable to buy health insurance. There are people who are undiagnosed diabetics, they know they're diabetics, but they never see a doctor about it though because they know that if they're diagnosed as diabetic they'll never, ever as long as long as they live be able to get health insurance. the system is totally broken.