The place of 'Good Works' in the Christian life.

Albion

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How is faith not a work (ie virtue)? I have always struggled with that.
If it's a work, it's the work of God, not of ourselves.

But beyond that, we need to keep clear what is meant by a "work" in the religious sense. I have heard people claim that they aren't baptized because they don't believe in salvation by works, as though for them to drive to the church and walk up to the baptismal font and state their vows is a "work" as though anything on our part that takes the least amount of effort is "work."

No, the idea really is that we would perform acts of mercy, just as Christ advocated in his Sermon on the Mount. And the believer should and will do such deeds, but that's not to say that doing them is what saves, just that our faith in Christ compels us to do what the one we follow taught.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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If it's a work, it's the work of God, not of ourselves.
Isn't the same true of charity?

But beyond that, we need to keep clear what is meant by a "work" in the religious sense. I have heard people claim that they aren't baptized because they don't believe in salvation by works, as though for them to drive to the church and walk up to the baptismal font and state their vows is a "work" as though anything on our part that takes the least amount of effort is "work."
That's so strange.
No, the idea really is that we would perform acts of mercy, just as Christ advocated in his Sermon on the Mount. And the believer should and will do such deeds, but that's not to say that doing them is what saves, just that our faith in Christ compels us to do what the one we follow taught.
This is true. Does the Bible ever say that faith saves us?
 
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Albion

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Isn't the same true of charity?
No. We are capable of understanding that we should be charitable towards our neighbors, and we are able to perform. But no one can come to the Lord by his own intelligence.

The concept of the Almighty is so far above our comprehension level that the most that can be done is what any pagan has done...think that there is a big man in the sky and he wants something from us.

Our god, though, became one of us in order to do for us what we are not capable of doing by ourselves (keep the commandments perfectly from birth to death which, after all, would be necessary if we were to earn salvation on our own.)

That could never be reasoned out by humans, but God imparts faith to men or we could say that he opens our minds to belief. .

This is true. Does the Bible ever say that faith saves us?
Absolutely.
 
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klutedavid

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Yes, the law identifies sin and convicts us of it. And yet…man was never created to be a sinner.
Man was good when God created mankind but man sinned and death became the reality. As time went by, mankind just became, more and more evil. Eventually mankind was destroyed by God (Ark).

Mankind is deeply opposed to God and unable to love others.

Romans 7:18-20
For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
So obedience must be possible. In fact, if obedience was impossible then man couldn’t be held blameworthy for disobedience.
Mankind's state, an enemy of God, is directly related to mankind's disobedience. I have the proof for you.

The Creator came to visit His creation, to visit His friends. We took that opportunity to murder Him.
If you believe that some good exists within mankind, then my friend you are deeply deceived.

Romans 1:28-32
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, and unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.

We excel at war but not much else it seems.
 
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klutedavid

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Agreed. Salvation from beginning to end is not of (good) works. I'm less certain about 'faith', is it ours or Christ's? I prefer Christ's.
Faith or belief if you like, are from the same Koine Greek word, 'pistis'.

That ability to believe in something or someone, was designed by God into this reality. Mankind never developed the ability to believe in someone. That faith in the Christ is always a gift, the measure of your faith is also a gift. Let's put it this way, all good things are from above.

You are correct.
 
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klutedavid

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How is faith not a work (ie virtue)? I have always struggled with that.
The human will or even the work of God, is to believe in Jesus Christ. That is the penultimate act that we can accomplish in this life.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

Your will, your faith, etc, is designed into the creation itself. God alone is the source of all things.

The glory belongs solely to Jesus Christ and we will bow before Him.
 
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fhansen

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Man was good when God created mankind but man sinned and death became the reality. As time went by, mankind just became, more and more evil. Eventually mankind was destroyed by God (Ark).

Mankind is deeply opposed to God and unable to love others.

Romans 7:18-20
For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.Mankind's state, an enemy of God, is directly related to mankind's disobedience. I have the proof for you.

The Creator came to visit His creation, to visit His friends. We took that opportunity to murder Him.
If you believe that some good exists within mankind, then my friend you are deeply deceived.

Romans 1:28-32
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, and unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.

We excel at war but not much else it seems.
I'll repeat what I said, which is the continous teaching of the Christian church in the east and west from the beginning,
"The lesson isn't that man is just a hopelessly wretched sinner, but that man is a hopelessly wretched sinner apart from God."

The New Covenant is first of all about re-establishing the union of man with God that was shattered at the Fall-before it had really even had a chance to take firm root in Adam & Eve incidentally. In their foolishness they took a detour, away from God but from His perspective it was all within His plan, to ultimately bring man back to Himself, and produce something even better yet, with man being a bit wiser now after spending time in exile away from Him with all the evil entailed in that. But that separation is why we're all born without direct knowledge of God now-and that state, itself, is one of injustice, disorder. Jesus, the new Adam, came to finally rectify this situation when the time was ripe in human history. He reconciles man with God so we'll turn to Him so He'll take residence within. This faith-born union is the essence of man's righteouness and from it all other rightouness flows just as the state of separation is the essence of mans unrightouneess and from it all other sin flows.

Jesus didn't do all He did just to leave us as we were, but to finally overcome the sin in us that earns us death.
 
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klutedavid

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I'll repeat what I said, which is the continous teaching of the Christian church in the east and west from the beginning,
"The lesson isn't that man is just a hopelessly wretched sinner, but that man is a hopelessly wretched sinner apart from God."

The New Covenant is first of all about re-establishing the union of man with God that was shattered at the Fall-before it had really even had a chance to take firm root in Adam & Eve incidentally. In their foolishness they took a detour, away from God but from His perspective it was all within His plan, to ultimately bring man back to Himself, and produce something even better yet, with man being a bit wiser now after spending time in exile away from Him with all the evil entailed in that. But that separation is why we're all born without direct knowledge of God now-and that state, itself, is one of injustice, disorder. Jesus, the new Adam, came to finally rectify this situation when the time was ripe in human history. He reconciles man with God so we'll turn to Him so He'll take residence within. This faith-born union is the essence of man's righteouness and from it all other rightouness flows just as the state of separation is the essence of mans unrightouneess and from it all other sin flows.

Jesus didn't do all He did just to leave us as we were, but to finally overcome the sin in us that earns us death.
I agree with what you wrote here.

We are, in fact, now fully reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:11
And not only this, but we also celebrate in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

2 Corinthians 5:20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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To All,

I appreciate everyone's responses. I found much that is commendable or informative. It is still difficult for me to understand what exactly is being said though.

Because Christmas Eve fell on Friday this year, I have been/will be attending church for three consecutive days. This has given me the opportunity to ponder my Faith in light of the Liturgy with minimal outside distractions.

Since I don't partake of the Eucharist, I am blessed to be able to observe my brothers and sisters do so. Last night and again today, I was struck by the old familiar realization that this was 'IT'; the Eucharistic event was everything.

I don't know about faith or love; together or alone, or atonement theories or much else. Faith alone in the context of receiving the Eucharist makes more sense to me but I suppose someone could make a case that love is present too. I don't understand St. Paul or St. James fully. I find theology engaging, explorative, but also confusing. I suppose it's because it's very ethereal to me, it has little to do with my actual experience.

I have tried so hard to figure out where I stand in the theological back and forth between the churches, with one goal in mind, to partake of the Eucharist in churches which are doctrinally close(d). But I am nowhere near even comprehending what I need to in order to say, 'Yes, I am Lutheran', or 'Yes, I am Orthodox'. All I understand of Lutheranism really comes from my Pastor's excellent sermons each week.

If I knew for certain that Lutherans had the real bodily presence of Christ in the Eucharist, nothing else would matter. It's my doubts (planted there by Orthodoxy and Rome) which prompt me to seek assurance in doctrine (if that makes sense). It's as if, right doctrine leads to Christ, when it probably should be the opposite.

This is where I am at present.

Thank you and Merry Christmas.
 
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fhansen

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Does God love...or is God love? The answer is both. The gift of love is the gift of Himself to us. We decide and reveal, by how we actually live our lives, by how well we love, whether or not we continue to value the gift.
This is true, I guess. It sounds very industrious to me, so I am not entirely comfortable with it.
Industrious-as opposed to lazy, maybe? :)
While Protestantism seeks to preserve the idea that our salvation depends on God, alone: ‘all to Him I owe’-that there’s nothing we contribute-it gets fuzzy as to whether or not man is still obligated to be personally righteous-or even if that’s possible. And another, related, question is whether or not or to what degree man's will is involved in the matter of justification and salvation.

In Catholicism, centuries ago, the church solidly laid down its teachings on grace-that man cannot even begin to move himself towards God apart from His initiative and work in us. But that at anytime throughout that process or walk with God man can nonetheless resist that grace, and turn away from Him. Our justice or righteousness is all the more confirmed, grown, and complete to the extent that we come to will it also. Faith, hope, and love, and the fruits of those virtues are always gifts, as well as choices-and continuous, daily choices. They produce that fruit as they’re embraced and exercised.

I think we can look at it this way. God wants something for-and also from us-otherwise the justifying of man wouldn’t be taking all the time and patient work that God has expended down through the centuries in cultivating and preparing man by revelation and grace for the ultimate revelation and grace who is Christ. God seeks to elicit from man a will that is reconciled to and aligned with His own, perfect will- for our highest good. And just as Jesus worked, we pick up our cross and follow and cooperate with Him now in that work, with His grace. But as this happens, we do it more and more willingly, out of the love we gain for Him and neighbor. Is faith nothing more than a reprieve from the obligation for man to be righteous, or is it the authentic means to it, affording us, with whatever time and other gifts we’re given, the ability with which to work out our salvation together with He who works in us?

For myself it’s of great interest and comfort to know that God’s purpose was never to punish a bunch of worthless sinners that He’s angry at unless they toe the line, defined however we want to define “toeing the line”, but first of all to produce something, something far greater than He began with, to patiently bring us into a perfection that only He knows with certainty. And that, necessarily, by and according to His wisdom and will, involves our wills. God’s purpose has always been man’s best interest: He covets our beatitude, our happiness, and, incidentally, love is the only valid and lasting means to that happiness. He just knows that fact better than we do. Love is both a command, and a grace, a blessing, as it’s received and embraced and "owned".
Doesn't R. Çatholicism teach that grace is created though? I think that's what I am hung up about.
Ok, the west likes to get “wordy” at times-to consider and to explain things as exhaustively as possible-not a bad thing in and of itself but not all of these are necessarily de fide, articles of faith BTW. Anyway, the CC has taught about uncreated and created grace. I don’t think those terms are emphasized in current teachings, at least on the level of catechesis. Uncreated grace is God, Himself, and His life that He gives us. Created graces are said to be those specific acts, in time, having a beginning IOW, by which He acts, intervenes, works in us and within our world to bring man to Himself. Teachings on grace in the catechism include the following:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

"Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing."51

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

"If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life."52

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

"Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness."55

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Industrious-as opposed to lazy, maybe? :)
No. As opposed to the still and quiet spirit of continual repentance and acceptance of God through the Sacraments.
While Protestantism seeks to preserve the idea that our salvation depends on God, alone: ‘all to Him I owe’-that there’s nothing we contribute-it gets fuzzy as to whether or not man is still obligated to be personally righteous-or even if that’s possible. And another, related, question is whether or not or to what degree man's will is involved in the matter of justification and salvation.

It depends on whether the Protestant is Calvinist, Lutheran or Arminian. Within themselves, they are fairly coherent systems of thought.
In Catholicism, centuries ago, the church solidly laid down its teachings on grace-that man cannot even begin to move himself towards God apart from His initiative and work in us. But that at anytime throughout that process or walk with God man can nonetheless resist that grace, and turn away from Him.
Yes. We can refuse the Sacraments.

Our justice or righteousness is all the more confirmed, grown, and complete to the extent that we come to will it also.
Christ is our righteousness, united to us through the Sacraments. To what extent we grow depends on God, since it is he who prunes and cuts down. This is where trust comes into play

Faith, hope, and love, and the fruits of those virtues are always gifts, as well as choices-and continuous, daily choices. They produce that fruit as they’re embraced and exercised.

The love of neighbor is the love of God and receiving what God offers in the Sacraments since God is both our neighbor according to the flesh and also, because he according to the flesh has united himself to everyone.

I think we can look at it this way. God wants something for-and also from us-otherwise
Yes. The Great Exchange. Our sinfulness for his righteousness. We take what is his, he takes what is ours. Humanity for Divinity and visa versa: One new man.

the justifying of man wouldn’t be taking all the time and patient work that God has expended down through the centuries in cultivating and preparing man by revelation and grace for the ultimate revelation and grace who is Christ. God seeks to elicit from man a will that is reconciled to and aligned with His own, perfect will- for our highest good.
That's why repentance is a state of being, not just an altar call or a tallying of sins.

And just as Jesus worked, we pick up our cross and follow and cooperate with Him now in that work, with His grace. But as this happens, we do it more and more willingly, out of the love we gain for Him and neighbor. Is faith nothing more than a reprieve from the obligation for man to be righteous, or is it the authentic means to it, affording us, with whatever time and other gifts we’re given, the ability with which to work out our salvation together with He who works in us?
More the latter. But there is a sense in which we do not grow bc the righteousness we are talking about is a complete righteousness. For this reason, I am more comfortable with the term appropriation. When we are baptized, we are made new right then and there. Growth to me, sounds like a person is new in some incomplete fashion, that has to be attained. I suppose that as long as you mean the term in the sense of, 'he grew in grace with God and man'. I agree. I just want to make sure that you get that I believe we are in a mystical sense, 'Christ', each one of us, not just a copy. So whatever is properly said of Christ, is said of us, short of confusing personhood.

For myself it’s of great interest and comfort to know that God’s purpose was never to punish a bunch of worthless sinners that He’s angry at unless they toe the line, defined however we want to define “toeing the line”, but first of all to produce something, something far greater than He began with, to patiently bring us into a perfection that only He knows with certainty. And that, necessarily, by and according to His wisdom and will, involves our wills. God’s purpose has always been man’s best interest: He covets our beatitude, our happiness, and, incidentally, love is the only valid and lasting means to that happiness. He just knows that fact better than we do. Love is both a command, and a grace, a blessing, as it’s received and embraced and "owned".
I agree with this.

Ok, the west likes to get “wordy” at times-to consider and to explain things as exhaustively as possible-not a bad thing in and of itself but not all of these are necessarily de fide, articles of faith BTW. Anyway, the CC has taught about uncreated and created grace. I don’t think those terms are emphasized in current teachings, at least on the level of catechesis. Uncreated grace is God, Himself, and His life that He gives us. Created graces are said to be those specific acts, in time, having a beginning IOW, by which He acts, intervenes, works in us and within our world to bring man to Himself. Teachings on grace in the catechism include the following:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

Agreed
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
I agree with this with the caveat that the charity is Christ's, not just that it is produced by union with him. I don't believe in created grace as defined above. For me, grace is all God in Jesus. Although Jesus's flesh was created, his personhood was not and grace cannot be separated from his person. He is grace.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47
Exactly. It is the gift of himself.

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
Exactly again....his own life (ie, righteousness).... received in baptism.

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

Yep. No ladder climbing. We are new rn, reconciled rn.

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

Agreed so long as the grace is uncreated, so long as it is Christ. I would distinguish between justification and sanctification though, because justification is for me, absolution.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

There's the distinction I was referring to earlier. Also, I am not certain yet to what degree we cooperate with justification, although I believe we can reject it. The Catholic Catechism seems to speak to a more Arminian vs Calvinism distinction that I don't know how to adjust to my own Soteriological outlook.

I'll continue later. I have to go soon.
[
 
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fhansen

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It depends on whether the Protestant is Calvinist, Lutheran or Arminian. Within themselves, they are fairly coherent systems of thought.
Sure-and either way coherency doesn't=truth. I just laid out the Catholic postion, which should be consistent with the eastern churches as well.
 
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fhansen

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Yes. We can refuse the Sacraments.
Yes, or any avenue of grace that God may grant.
Christ is our righteousness, united to us through the Sacraments. To what extent we grow depends on God, since it is he who prunes and cuts down. This is where trust comes into play
Yes, and our wills in that trusting, in our remaining in Him.
That's why repentance is a state of being, not just an altar call or a tallying of sins.
Repentance is a change of heart, which hopefully comes after having turned back away from God again.
When we are baptized, we are made new right then and there. Growth to me, sounds like a person is new in some incomplete fashion, that has to be attained. I suppose that as long as you mean the term in the sense of, 'he grew in grace with God and man'. I agree. I just want to make sure that you get that I believe we are in a mystical sense, 'Christ', each one of us, not just a copy. So whatever is properly said of Christ, is said of us, short of confusing personhood.
Yes, we're made new. But we can also return to the old, like a dog returning to his vomit, etc (2 Pet 2:22). Or we can bury our talents, rest on our laurels, which indicates no real justice/righteousness to begin with-just talk. If real, grace will move onto more grace yet, righteousness increasing to more righteouness as we walk with God and do His will, cooperating with His grace. There's no limit to that because there's no limit to God's righteouness, to His love to put it more exactly. Either way, until we actually love God with our whole heart soul, mind, and strength then our righteousness is still in seed or partly blossomed form, and the possibilty of compromising and forfeiting it still exists. That perfection is possible-or else there would be sinners in heaven.
I agree with this with the caveat that the charity is Christ's, not just that it is produced by union with him. I don't believe in created grace as defined above. For me, grace is all God in Jesus. Although Jesus's flesh was created, his personhood was not and grace cannot be separated from his person. He is grace.
I would agree that charity isn't produced, but it's nonetheless given-as an intrinisic part of that gift of Himself to us. And it can grow-we can have more of it. And the charity is ours as well, because Gods wants us to be something, not just "snow-covered-dung heaps" etc.
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

As far as the distinction between graces, that's not an issue for me. Maybe if I understood the matter better I'd feel one way or the other about it. Either way grace is a supernatural gift.
Agreed so long as the grace is uncreated, so long as it is Christ. I would distinguish between justification and sanctification though, because justification is for me, absolution.
And yet if justification is only absolution or the remission of sin then we wouldn't really be changed, not set to behave any differently now as this "new creation". In Catholic teaching justifcation and sanctification are part and parcel of the same thing, sanctification simply a continuing of the justifying initiated at justification.
 
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Yes, or any avenue of grace that God may grant.
True

Yes, and our wills in that trusting, in our remaining in Him.

I'm not sure to what degree our will is involved in remaining in him. We have freewill in the sense of choosing (although I like the Orthodox distinction between gnomic and natural will). But our freewill is bound in certain respects, it's not entirely oriented toward the good (albeit it is orientated toward the perceived good). On a practical level, I have days where I am angry with God and don't care at all for what he is doing to me, but he's still doing it to me.
Repentance is a change of heart, which hopefully comes after having turned back away from God again.
I think of it a little differently, although I agree that it is a change of heart, or orientation. I experience repentance as a permanent disposition; a habit. I'm sort of monkish in this way lol.
Yes, we're made new. But we can also return to the old, like a dog returning to his vomit, etc (2 Pet 2:22). Or we can bury our talents, rest on our laurels, which indicates no real justice/righteousness to begin with-just talk. If real, grace will move onto more grace yet, righteousness increasing to more righteouness as we walk with God and do His will, cooperating with His grace. There's no limit to that because there's no limit to God's righteouness, to His love to put it more exactly. Either way, until we actually love God with our whole heart soul, mind, and strength then our righteousness is still in seed or partly blossomed form, and the possibilty of compromising and forfeiting it still exists.
Ok. I think I have it now. So you're thinking of righteousness not as logos proper but as the logoi? Not as the sun but as the plasma?

That perfection is possible-or else there would be sinners in heaven.
Yes, I just don't know if it possible in this life short of a special dispensation of God (The Immaculate Conception?), bc I consider concupiscence sin.

I would agree that charity isn't produced, but it's nonetheless given-as an intrinisic part of that gift of Himself to us. And it can grow-we can have more of it. And the charity is ours as well, because Gods wants us to be something, not just "snow-covered-dung heaps" etc.
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2
Snow covered dung heaps?

As far as the distinction between graces, that's not an issue for me. Maybe if I understood the matter better I'd feel one way or the other about it. Either way grace is a supernatural gift.
Ok
And yet if justification is only absolution or the remission of sin then we wouldn't really be changed, not set to behave any differently now as this "new creation".
No. Because that's what the forgiveness of sins does--it removes sin. It removes the bonds by which our will was bound so that we can behave like the people we were created to be. Contrarily, not forgiving leaves people condemned in their sinful nature.
Let me give you a practical example. I had a friend who was very angry at something that I did. And I did do it, mostly. I repented for the wrong that I did and I repented for hurting her. But she refused to forgive me and restore our relationship. This was a year ago. For a year, I have been living under the weight of not having my sins forgiven; they are ever before me. I live as a guilty person who struggles now to trust and to love. Forgiveness (restoration) is everything.
In Catholic teaching justifcation and sanctification are part and parcel of the same thing, sanctification simply a continuing of the justifying initiated at justification.
I don't really have a problem with that if you understand 'justification' to 'make righteous'. I'm just not sure that is Paul's meaning.
 
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Since according to Christ, God is love, then increasing love is union with God.
It seems like a break between us and God is being created. It causes me to think that God can be increased.
 
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What is the Roman Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox position on good works; do they contribute to our right standing before God and our ultimate salvation?

Thanks.


To the sects you are referring to, the answer would sadly be yes.

The real truth is we are saved for good works not because of good works.

Peace be to all those in the body of Christ
 
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I'm not sure to what degree our will is involved in remaining in him. We have freewill in the sense of choosing (although I like the Orthodox distinction between gnomic and natural will). But our freewill is bound in certain respects, it's not entirely oriented toward the good (albeit it is orientated toward the perceived good). On a practical level, I have days where I am angry with God and don't care at all for what he is doing to me, but he's still doing it to me.
It's not what we do moment to moment. But at the same time there must be an overall positive difference between believer and unbeliver in terms of faith, hope, and love. Our wills are only involved in that we can refuse to consent, to cooperate. We can open the door or keep it closed, or close it at any point later on.
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6
 
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Sure-and either way coherency doesn't=truth. I just laid out the Catholic postion, which should be consistent with the eastern churches as well.
It's true that coherency doesn't equal truth, but I thought the issue was confusion between Protestants not whether any of them are truthful. EO seems to have it's own thing going. Depending on who I talk to sometimes they seem closer to Roman Catholic sometimes they seem closer to Lutherans. All in all, their view seems to center around asceticism.
 
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Industrious-as opposed to lazy, maybe? :)
While Protestantism seeks to preserve the idea that our salvation depends on God, alone: ‘all to Him I owe’-that there’s nothing we contribute-it gets fuzzy as to whether or not man is still obligated to be personally righteous-or even if that’s possible. And another, related, question is whether or not or to what degree man's will is involved in the matter of justification and salvation.

In Catholicism, centuries ago, the church solidly laid down its teachings on grace-that man cannot even begin to move himself towards God apart from His initiative and work in us. But that at anytime throughout that process or walk with God man can nonetheless resist that grace, and turn away from Him. Our justice or righteousness is all the more confirmed, grown, and complete to the extent that we come to will it also. Faith, hope, and love, and the fruits of those virtues are always gifts, as well as choices-and continuous, daily choices. They produce that fruit as they’re embraced and exercised.

I think we can look at it this way. God wants something for-and also from us-otherwise the justifying of man wouldn’t be taking all the time and patient work that God has expended down through the centuries in cultivating and preparing man by revelation and grace for the ultimate revelation and grace who is Christ. God seeks to elicit from man a will that is reconciled to and aligned with His own, perfect will- for our highest good. And just as Jesus worked, we pick up our cross and follow and cooperate with Him now in that work, with His grace. But as this happens, we do it more and more willingly, out of the love we gain for Him and neighbor. Is faith nothing more than a reprieve from the obligation for man to be righteous, or is it the authentic means to it, affording us, with whatever time and other gifts we’re given, the ability with which to work out our salvation together with He who works in us?

For myself it’s of great interest and comfort to know that God’s purpose was never to punish a bunch of worthless sinners that He’s angry at unless they toe the line, defined however we want to define “toeing the line”, but first of all to produce something, something far greater than He began with, to patiently bring us into a perfection that only He knows with certainty. And that, necessarily, by and according to His wisdom and will, involves our wills. God’s purpose has always been man’s best interest: He covets our beatitude, our happiness, and, incidentally, love is the only valid and lasting means to that happiness. He just knows that fact better than we do. Love is both a command, and a grace, a blessing, as it’s received and embraced and "owned".

Ok, the west likes to get “wordy” at times-to consider and to explain things as exhaustively as possible-not a bad thing in and of itself but not all of these are necessarily de fide, articles of faith BTW. Anyway, the CC has taught about uncreated and created grace. I don’t think those terms are emphasized in current teachings, at least on the level of catechesis. Uncreated grace is God, Himself, and His life that He gives us. Created graces are said to be those specific acts, in time, having a beginning IOW, by which He acts, intervenes, works in us and within our world to bring man to Himself. Teachings on grace in the catechism include the following:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

"Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing."51

Continuing on:

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

"If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life."52
I don't understand what this means. Does man have a natural ability to know God?
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

"Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness."55
Ok.
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
We shouldn't rely on our feelings or works but we should rely on the promises of God through the Sacraments.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58
Ok. I wish she had more confidence, but it's understandable given her predicament.
 
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