The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

[Clare73]

Actually, there is no rational way to even pretend that "all the house of Israel, all of it," has EVER again inhabited "the mountains of Israel, Along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around, as is explicitly promised in Ezekiel 36:1-10. Nor is there a rational way to even pretend that Israel has ever had the boundries so specifically defined in Ezekiel 47:13-20. Nor is there any rational way to even pretend that this PLOT OF REAL ESTATE was ever divided among the twelve tribes of Israel in the way specified in Ezekiel 48.

You know this, how?

You were there in 6th century BC when they returned?

 

[Biblewriter]

You know this, how?

You were there in 6th century BC when they returned?

We know from scripture itself that at that time, only a very small part of Judah returned. And we were not told of any significant number of any of the other ten tribes having EVER returned.

We also know from scripture that the promised return will take place AFTER Messiah returns, not BEFORE. For that, see Isaiah 66:15-20 and Ezekiel 20:33-38.

 

[keras]

Jew is both a generic name in one sense, and in a different sense, them of the tribe of Judah. Jews, generically speaking, the Jews determine a person's individual tribal affiliation according to their father's name.

Hitler was able to determine who was a Jew by the Jews' themselves profession of identity, and the cultural customs they have carried forward down through the centuries, speaking Hebrew and Yiddish, plus physical characteristics.

People can claim to be anything they like. There is no doubt that the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, flying the six pointed star of Rephaim, are not the true Israel.
I have been to Israel and they all look just like any other Western peoples. Actually some of the Haredi Jews are so inbred, they have many genetic faults.
Anyway; they allow people of any race to join, provided they accept Judaism. So, as with Christians, being Jewish has no ethnic criteria.

The belief the peoples of the State of Israel have any special place in God's Plan, is correct: they will be wiped out. Isaiah 22:14, and only a Messianic remnant will survive. Isaiah 29:1-4, Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27

 

[Douggg]

They didn't find each other, Hitler found them.

Have all returned to Israel?

No, that will take place when Jesus returns. Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31.

 

[Douggg]

People can claim to be anything they like. There is no doubt that the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, flying the six pointed star of Rephaim, are not the true Israel.
I have been to Israel and they all look just like any other Western peoples. Actually some of the Haredi Jews are so inbred, they have many genetic faults.
Anyway; they allow people of any race to join, provided they accept Judaism. So, as with Christians, being Jewish has no ethnic criteria.

The belief the peoples of the State of Israel have any special place in God's Plan, is correct: they will be wiped out. Isaiah 22:14, and only a Messianic remnant will survive. Isaiah 29:1-4, Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27

One thing you have right is the majority of Jews in Israel are not yet Christians.

They are looking for another - other than Jesus - to be their King of Israel messiah. That will happen in the person of the Antichrist. Big mistake.

The Jews become Christians after the person betrays them, and they turn to Jesus.

 

[keras]

They are looking for another - other than Jesus - to be their King of Israel messiah. That will happen in the person of the Antichrist. Big mistake.

This is serious error, nowhere does the Bible say there will be a false King of Jewish Israel.
The Jews face Judgment and punishment at the Sixth Seal, the devastation that will depopulate all of the holy Land. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Zephaniah 2:1-5, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 25:30-38

The Christians, who will go to live in all of the holy Land will elect their own leader. Hosea 1:11, Jeremiah 30:21
The leader of the One World Govt comes to them and makes a 7 year peace treaty, after the Gog attack and their wipe out. Then after half of the 7 year period, the OWG leader, then revealed and the Anti-Christ, will conquer the Christian peoples. Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2

 

[Biblewriter]

[QUOTE="keras, post: 76017070, member: 324545"

The belief the peoples of the State of Israel have any special place in God's Plan, is correct: they will be wiped out. Isaiah 22:14, and only a Messianic remnant will survive. Isaiah 29:1-4, Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27[/QUOTE]
You are combining scriptures about different times. A judement that leaves only a tenth cannot be the same judgment as the one in which a third is preserved.

 

[Douggg]

This is serious error, nowhere does the Bible say there will be a false King of Jewish Israel.

It is built into the word Antichrist.

Anti is a prefix meaning instead of and/or against.

Christ the greek word for the Jewish word for messiah - means anointed. "the" anointed is a reference to "the" messiah, the promised great King of Israel, descended from King David, to sit upon David's throne as the King of Israel.

Isaiah 9:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jesus is the rightful King of Israel, and the King of the Kingdom of God. Satan sought to have Jesus killed because otherwise the Kingdom of God would replace his own kingdom's (metaphorically in Revelation called Babylon the Great) control over the earth.

That Jesus was the rightful King of Israel was/is in John 12:12-15.

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

and later at the cross....in Mark 15

9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

10 For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.


The Anti-Christ is someone instead of and against Jesus as the King of Israel, who came in the name of the Lord. The Anti-Christ comes in his own name.


John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.


The little horn person as the little horn is not the Antichrist. It is only for the time he is the King of Israel that he is the Antichrist.

As the Antichrist - King of Israel, perceived messiah to the Jews, for awhile, until he reveals himself to be the man of sin, and not the messiah after all.

As the little horn - leader of the EU, 7th king (of the Julio-Claudian bloodline) the end times Roman empire. (Julius Caesar, Tiberius, Augustus, Caligula, Claudius, Nero - the 6 historic kings.)

As the beast - dictator of the EU, 8th king (of the Julio-Claudian bloodline) the end times Roman empire.

 

[Douggg]

The leader of the One World Govt comes to them and makes a 7 year peace treaty, after the Gog attack and their wipe out. Then after half of the 7 year period, the OWG leader, then revealed and the Anti-Christ, will conquer the Christian peoples. Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2

No mention of a one world government in the bible - except for the Kingdom of God.

No mention of a 7 year peace treaty in the bible.

Paul does not say the person is revealed as the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians, but as the man of sin.

The saints, including Jews who will be Christians at that time, will be persecuted by the person as the beast.
_____________________________________________________________

keras, you are trying to eliminate the Jews, Daniel's people, from end times prophecies regarding them and Jerusalem in the fulfillment of Daniel 9. The Jews will be rescued by Jesus when he returns, and the Jews in Jerusalem as their ancestors were in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5.

Please, show how the Jews are not the ones in Jerusalem in Zechariah 14, when Jesus stands upon the Mt. of Olives.

 

[Clare73]

We know from scripture itself that at that time, only a very small part of Judah returned. And we were not told of any significant number of any of the other ten tribes having EVER returned.

It doesn't require a "significant" number of any in order to be fulfilled.

We also know from scripture that the promised return will take place AFTER Messiah returns, not BEFORE. For that, see Isaiah 66:15-20 and Ezekiel 20:33-38.

That would be prophecy, which is given in riddles (dark sayings--Numbers 12:8) and not clearly, is subject to more than one interpretation, and yours being contrary to authoritative NT teaching.

 

[Clare73]

Have all returned to Israel?

No, that will take place when Jesus returns. Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31.

Not according to NT teaching which presents the general resurrection at the end of time as part of Jesus' return (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:52)

in "the last day, (John 6:39-40, 44, 54), the "day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:2;
1 Corinthians 1:8); i.e., the Final Judgment.

Your interpretation of prophetic riddles (dark sayings--Numbers 12:8, not given clearly) is contrary
to authoritative NT teaching.

 

[Douggg]

Not according to NT teaching which presents the general resurrection at the end of time as part of Jesus' return (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:52)

Claire, the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians 4:15-18, 1Thessalonians 5:9-11 is not the general resurrection. The rapture/resurrection takes place before the Day of the Lord begins, and is for them "in Christ". The general resurrection (the rest of the dead) takes place at the end of the thousand years at the GWT (the Great White Throne Judgement).


Both the Rapture/resurrection (to the left) and the resurrection of the rest of the dead (to the right) are on my chart below.

The gathering of the elect, in Matthew 24:31 and Ezekiel 39:28 is the gathering of the last remaining Jews in the nations back to the land of Israel - in their natural bodies, like you and I have now.

Matthew 24:15-31 is directed mainly to Jews who will end up going through the great tribulation.

Differently, Matthew 24:32-51 is directed to us Christians to be aware of the times and be watching for Jesus to come for us in the rapture, so as not to have to go through the great tribulation. The escape in Luke 21:34-36.

 

[Biblewriter]

Your interpretation of prophetic riddles (dark sayings--Numbers 12:8, not given clearly) is contrary
to authoritative NT teaching.

WE are not speaking of prophetic "riddles," but of prophecies that are explicitly stated in plain, clear, words. The "authoritative NT teaching" that YOU are speaking of is 100% pure, unadulterated, INTERPRETATION. There is not even ONE statement in the entire NT that contradicts these EXPLICITLY STATED prophecies that are in the OT.

 

[keras]

No mention of a one world government in the bible - except for the Kingdom of God.

One of your many statements that show how you fail to read and understand Bible prophecy.
Daniel 7:23-24 says one man will rise to devour the whole earth, treading it down and crushing it.
Revelation 13:5-8...the 'beast' is granted authority over every tribe, nation and race. ALL the inhabitants of the earth will worship him.
Only the faithful Christians won't worship him, they will be in a place of safety for that 1260 days of his world rule.
If they aren't, as per Revelation 12:17, they may be martyred.

EXPLICITLY STATED prophecies that are in the OT.

What is explicitly stated in the OT, is the virtual demise of the House of Judah. Ezekiel 21:1-11 and 20 other prophesies describe it.

Ezekiel 34:11-16 then clearly says it is His 'sheep' who will be gathered into the holy Land, all the faithful Christian peoples. Jeremiah 23:1-4, John 10:14-16

Your insistence of a ethnic redemption, is unscriptural and is against all logic and the known facts of anthropology.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

As I said, I am not going to play your diversionary game. I have demonstrated that your argument is nothing but a cavil, for even if you were correct about the name Israel (which is not the case) there is not even one scripture that you can even pretend indicates that "the church" is represented by ANY of the other people places, or groups to which explicitly stated promises were made

You mean other than scripture like Galatians 3:16,28-29? It seems to me that you are unwilling to except what is EXPLICITLY stated in those verses which is that the promises made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ and those who belong to Christ. Your doctrine EXPLICITLY contradicts that passage, so it's no wonder you try to avoid talking about it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Romans 9:6-8 does not even suggest the notion that the true Israel is a different group than the natural Israel. Rather, it is saying that the true Israel is a sub-set of the natural Israel. That is, that only SOME of the natural Israel is the true Israel. There is not even one passage in the entire Bible that says that being a Christian makes a person an Israelite. That is 100% pure interpretation. And that INTERPRETATION makes God out to be a liar. For He made these promises to specific people groups. So giving these blesings to a different group would be reniging on His promises.

Where in Romans 9:6-8 does it say that one of the requirements for being a part of true Israel is being a part of natural Israel, which is what you're saying by claiming that "true Israel is a sub-set of the natural Israel"?

Is it where it says "they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"? Hmm. No, that can't be it. So, where exactly does that passage indicate that "true Israel is a sub-set of the natural Israel"?

 

[Clare73]

Claire, the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians 4:15-18, 1Thessalonians 5:9-11 is not the general resurrection.

It is in NT teaching.
It is located with the trumpet call of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16), the summons to judgment at the second coming of Christ with all his angels (Matthew 24:30) in "the last day (John 6:39-40, 44),
the "day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:2; 1 Corinthians 1:8); i.e., the Final Judgment,
which angels will gather those in Christ from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (Matthew 24:31), who have been raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

The rapture/resurrection takes place before the Day of the Lord begins, and is for them "in Christ". The general resurrection (the rest of the dead) takes place at the end of the thousand years at the GWT (the Great White Throne Judgement).

NT teaching does not present two resurrections.
That is all a doctrine of man, so agreeable to his fancy--it being woven from
his personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) which contradicts NT teaching--
that he thinks it is from God.

 

[Clare73]

WE are not speaking of prophetic "riddles," but of prophecies that are explicitly stated in plain, clear, words. The "authoritative NT teaching" that YOU are speaking of is 100% pure, unadulterated, INTERPRETATION. There is not even ONE statement in the entire NT that contradicts these EXPLICITLY STATED prophecies that are in the OT.

Nor have I stated such.

 

[Biblewriter]

One of your many statements that show how you fail to read and understand Bible prophecy.
Daniel 7:23-24 says one man will rise to devour the whole earth, treading it down and crushing it.
Revelation 13:5-8...the 'beast' is granted authority over every tribe, nation and race. ALL the inhabitants of the earth will worship him.
Only the faithful Christians won't worship him, they will be in a place of safety for that 1260 days of his world rule.
If they aren't, as per Revelation 12:17, they may be martyred.

What is explicitly stated in the OT, is the virtual demise of the House of Judah. Ezekiel 21:1-11 and 20 other prophesies describe it.

Ezekiel 34:11-16 then clearly says it is His 'sheep' who will be gathered into the holy Land, all the faithful Christian peoples. Jeremiah 23:1-4, John 10:14-16

Your insistence of a ethnic redemption, is unscriptural and is against all logic and the known facts of anthropology.

Actually, even if you were correct about God having transferred the promises made to Israel to "the church," (which is not the case) this would still have no effect on the explicitly stated promises that God made to both of the ancient sub-nations of "Ephraim" and "Judah" in Isaiah 11:11-15, Ezekiel 37:15-28 and Zechariah 9:12-17, to the ancient sub-nation of "Judah" in Jeremiah 31:31 and 33:14, Jeremiah 32:6-44, Joel 3:1, Zechariah 12:2-7, and Zechariah 14:14-21, to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name in Ezekiel 48:1-8 and 23-19, to the descendants of Phinehas in Numbers 25:10-13, to the descendants of Zadok in Ezekiel 44:15-16, to the descendants of the ancient Levites in Jeremiah 33:18 and Ezekiel 44:10-16, to the land of Benjamin in Jeremiah 32:44, to the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around" in Ezekiel 36:1-10, to "the places around Jerusalem, in the cities of Judah, in the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the lowland, and in the cities of the South" in Jeremiah 32:44, to the plot of real estate defined by specifying its borders in Ezekiel 47:13-20, to "Zion" in Zechariah 9:13, Joel 3:16-17 and Micah 4:2-13, and to the city of Jerusalem in Jeremiah 32:32-44 and 33:16, Joel 3:1-21, Micah 4:2-8, and Zechariah 14:2-21 and 12:1-9.

One of your many statements that show how you fail to read and understand Bible prophecy.
Daniel 7:23-24 says one man will rise to devour the whole earth, treading it down and crushing it.
Revelation 13:5-8...the 'beast' is granted authority over every tribe, nation and race. ALL the inhabitants of the earth will worship him.
Only the faithful Christians won't worship him, they will be in a place of safety for that 1260 days of his world rule.
If they aren't, as per Revelation 12:17, they may be martyred.

What is explicitly stated in the OT, is the virtual demise of the House of Judah. Ezekiel 21:1-11 and 20 other prophesies describe it.

Ezekiel 34:11-16 then clearly says it is His 'sheep' who will be gathered into the holy Land, all the faithful Christian peoples. Jeremiah 23:1-4, John 10:14-16

Your insistence of a ethnic redemption, is unscriptural and is against all logic and the known facts of anthropology.

You are ignoring the many explicitly stated promises that God made, not only to the ancient nation of Israel, but also to both of the ancient sub-nations of "Ephraim" and "Judah" in Isaiah 11:11-15, Ezekiel 37:15-28 and Zechariah 9:12-17, to the ancient sub-nation of "Judah" in Jeremiah 31:31 and 33:14, Jeremiah 32:6-44, Joel 3:1, Zechariah 12:2-7, and Zechariah 14:14-21, to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name in Ezekiel 48:1-8 and 23-19, to the descendants of Phinehas in Numbers 25:10-13, to the descendants of Zadok in Ezekiel 44:15-16, to the descendants of the ancient Levites in Jeremiah 33:18 and Ezekiel 44:10-16, to the land of Benjamin in Jeremiah 32:44, to the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around" in Ezekiel 36:1-10, to "the places around Jerusalem, in the cities of Judah, in the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the lowland, and in the cities of the South" in Jeremiah 32:44, to the plot of real estate defined by specifying its borders in Ezekiel 47:13-20, to "Zion" in Zechariah 9:13, Joel 3:16-17 and Micah 4:2-13, and to the city of Jerusalem in Jeremiah 32:32-44 and 33:16, Joel 3:1-21, Micah 4:2-8, and Zechariah 14:2-21 and 12:1-9.

 

[Biblewriter]

You mean other than scripture like Galatians 3:16,28-29? It seems to me that you are unwilling to except what is EXPLICITLY stated in those verses which is that the promises made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ and those who belong to Christ. Your doctrine EXPLICITLY contradicts that passage, so it's no wonder you try to avoid talking about it.

I most certainly accept what Galatians 3 says. What I deny is the wrested interpretation you make of this passage. And I continue to stand on the VERY MANY passages that EXPLICITLY say, in PLAIN, CLEAR, words, that God will eventually b ring the entire ancient nation of Israel back to its ancient homeland, and will, after He purges out the rebels from their midst, bring all the rest of them to repentance and bless them IN THEIR ANCIENT HOMELAND. This is NOT interpretation, it is what God ACTUALLY said He would do.