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The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Biblewriter, Jun 5, 2021.

  1. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is an incredibly weak argument. Romans 9:6-8 very specifically says that being a natural descendant of Abraham or of the nation of Israel has no bearing on being part of the other Israel he mentioned, which some of us are calling spiritual Israel. Instead, it has everything to do with being a child of God and of the promise. Galatians 3:26-29 tells us very specifically who the children of God and of the promise are: Christians, consisting of both Jew and Gentile believers.

    And here is yet another unbelievably weak argument from you. Does the blood of Christ bring us near to the nation of Israel? Clearly not, right? So, what Israel does it bring people near to? Spiritual Israel. What other choice is there?

    This is an incredibly weak argument. It's talking about spiritual citizenship in the spiritual Israel of God. There's nothing about that word which dictates that it has to be talking about earthly citizenship. That is a rule that you are trying to impose on that word, but no one is obligated to go by your man-made rules.

    Another weak argument. Surely, an earthly nation consisting of mostly Christ rejecters is not what Paul would consider to be the Israel of God at that point. He was equating those who had become "a new creation" with the Israel of God. All Christians, Jew or Gentile, are made a new creation by Christ. So, all Christians are part of the spiritual Israel of God. You are trying to divide what Christ brought together (Jew and Gentile believers), but those with spiritual discernment can see through your false teaching.

    I showed that it does exist and you are stubbornly denying what I clearly showed from scripture.
     
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  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    No. The only thing you showed is a few scriptures that you choose to interpret to mean that.

    And sadly, you are choosing to use your interpretations of these few scriptures, which never, even once, actually say what you choose to interpret them to mean, as a very poor excuse for denying the truth of a very large number of scriptures that explicitly say the very opposite of what you choose to interpret these few scriptures to mean.
     
  3. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your interpretations of those scriptures are explicitly wrong since they explicitly contradict what the scriptures I interpreted explicitly say.
     
  4. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 6:15-16 states, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on [Gr. epi] them, and mercy, even on [Gr. kai epi] the Israel of God.”

    You attempt to create two peoples of God in this reading, despite the fact that Paul’s whole import in this reading is that there is only one harmonious people of God. Dispensationalists make much of the words “and upon” (kai epi) and present this as proof that there is a distinction among God’s people. However, this flimsy argument is quickly nullified by (1) looking at the whole trust of Paul’s argument, (2) taking a closer look at the original Greek and (3) exploring similar usages of the Greek phrase in Scripture.

    First of all, the Greek language scholar will know: kai has both a copulative and a cumulative force. The Greek word kai can be translated “and” or “even.”

    Copulative refers to the joining together of coordinate words or word groups and expressing addition of their meanings. Cumulative refers to a snowballing effect. It means increasing by successive additions. It is formed by the addition of new material of the same kind. The best way to illustrate this is that the word can be equally translated as “and” or “even.”

    This Greek coupling kai epi is found together in a couple of other places in the New Testament. It is always helpful to compare similar or identical usages elsewhere in Scripture. This gives us a greater sense of meaning. Significantly, in these cases rather than suggesting a distinction in factions they actually show an enlargement of detail relating to the exact same subject matter. The coupling together of these words simply adds greater depth or more information to what has already been outlined. In each NT case, it is used in a cumulative sense. The second noun basically adds emphasis or further data to the first. It is therefore acceptable to interpret the same as “even on.”

    An example of this is found in Christ’s words in Matthew 21:5, which similarly reads, “Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon [Gr. epi] an ass, and [Gr. kai epi] a colt the foal of an ass.”

    The same idea is presented here (surrounded by the exact same key Greek words) as Galatians 6:16: epi ... kai epi (“on ... even on”). No one would be as naïve as to argue that the “ass” and the “colt” mentioned above are two different beasts. No, it is obvious that this is speaking of the one same animal. It literally reads, “on an ass, even on a colt the foal of an ass.” The “even on” simply adds further detail upon the description already given on the matter. In this case, not only is it an ass, but it is “a colt the foal of an ass.” This verse assists us in our understanding of Galatians 6:16, and illustrates the real import of this much-debated text.

    The same formation of Greek words is found in the same sequence, in order to present the same idea in Revelation 14:6, which reads, “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto [Gr. epi] them that dwell on the earth, and [Gr. kai epi] to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

    No sensible Bible student would suggest that that there are two different companies in view in this reading. Even though the word kai is translated “and” (like Galatians 6:16) in the KJV, it doesn’t negate the fact that those that are said to “dwell on the earth” are in fact those of “every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

    The Greek words kai epi are simply used here to broaden the information already given about the singular subject in view. They are not therefore two distinct peoples, they are the same. We see the exact same pattern as we have in Matthew 21:5: “unto ... even on” (epi ... kai epi). This passage simply states, “unto them that dwell on the earth, even on every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

    Galatians 6:16 therefore agrees with these other two passages. The construction of the passage in the original Greek leads us to the obvious conclusion that we are looking at one unitary people. It is important we acknowledge the sequence of the words – “on ... even on” (or epi ... kai epi). Just like Matthew 21:5 and Revelation 14:6, the 2 mentions connect together and refer to the same subject matter. There can be no doubt: the phrase “the Israel of God” is carefully and deliberately related to all those who have experienced the new birth (who are the focus of this passage). This serves to add description to the regenerate.

    Christopher W. Cowan explains: “[Kermit] Titrud cites the linguistic principle of ‘maximum redundancy’ – that is, ‘the best meaning is the least meaning’. In other words, the correct meaning is usually the one that ‘contributes the least new information to the total context’ … To say that Paul intends the phrase to mean all believers, Jew and Gentile, is consistent with the letter and adds the least new information to the context” (Context Is Everything: “The Israel of God” in Galatians 6:16).

    Cowan adds: “As the saying goes, ‘context is everything’, and context is the decisive factor in understanding Paul's meaning here. Having contended for the unity of Jews and Gentiles in Christ throughout his letter, now at the conclusion Paul identifies the church, those who conform to the new creation in Christ, as the true Israel … To make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles here at the end of the letter would appear to counteract Paul’s entire preceding argument!” (Context Is Everything: “The Israel of God” in Galatians 6:16).

    Anthony A. Hoekema challenges the Dispensational position: “The problem with this interpretation is that believing Jews have already been included in the words ‘all who follow this rule’. The word kai, therefore, should here be rendered ‘even’ … When the passages is so understood, ‘the Israel of God’ is a further description of ‘all who follow this rule’ – that is, of all true believers, including both Jews and Gentiles who constitute the New Testament church. Here, in other words, Paul clearly identifies the church as the true Israel” (The Bible and the Future).
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    "two peoples of God" - please define.

    The issue is....

    Who is the church?

    Who is Israel?
     
  6. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Here, you flatly contradicted yourself.For an INTERPRETATION of a scripture is NOT what it EXPLICITLY says.
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Israelis: The current inhabitants of the State of Israel.

    Israelites: Faithful believing descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or those people grafted in by reason of righteousness. Only God knows who they all are. Amos 9:9, Romans 9:6

    Most Western Christians view modern Israelis as a continuation of the ancient Biblical drama of Israel and as the inheritors of the traditional role that the Jews have played through the ages. Through them, we have a universal moral code of justice: the Ten Commandments. These Divinely inspired Laws form the basis of our Judeo/Christian morality and ethics. Therefore modern Israel has been expected to reflect a high level of justice and morality in its actions.

    Jewish teaching also says that history is not as the Greeks taught it, that is: a cyclical series of events in which mankind gets no better or no worse. The Torah, the Talmud and the Mishnah, all teach that we can steadily uplift human society and eventually there will come a Messianic era of true peace and harmony.

    Although the State of Israel does display restraint in their dealings with their neighbors, it can hardly be said that they maintain Biblical precepts, such as ‘Love thy neighbor’. And as for moral leadership, Israeli’s are a seriously bad example!


    What then of the prophesies that say the Israelites are a chosen people, destined to be a ‘light to the nations’? We must be aware and keep in mind that the Jewish people are comprised of only 2 tribes, of the original 12 sons of Jacob. [Parts of some other tribes are assimilated.] Ezekiel 22:15
    The Jewish Israeli people are just ‘the budding of the fig tree’, a first fruit of the final regathering of ALL the Israelite people.
    The faithful, believing remnant of Judah will join with their Christian Israelite brethren, Jeremiah 50:4-5, and together they will live in all of the holy Land, as God always wanted; His witnesses; Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Amen, and thanks brother, for a resounding rebuttal of another of dispensationalism's incessant obdurate attempts to racialize this inspirational declaration in God's Word.
     
  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Amen bro! Dispensationalism and Prrtrib are fighting the Word. They don't add up. They are extra-biblical.
     
  10. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israel's in one sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the ones of Israel are Israel..." Romans 9:6
    There you have it; two distinct Israel's in one statement. The first represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to say, "...nor because they are the descendants of Abraham are they all his children."
    "It is not [Abraham's] children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise..... made to Abraham; the faithful believers in Jesus. Romans 9:8

    This proves that Christians are now the only Israel of God.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jacob's name was changed to Israel. Not Abraham's.

    Paul does not say nor imply that anyone by virtue of becoming a Christian becomes a descendant of Jacob.

    Israel, the nation, is the physical descendants of Jacob and his twelve sons.

    Christians, a spiritual born again group*, from all the nations, make up the church.

    ______________________________________________________

    *no one becomes a Christian by virtue of their parents being Christians. It is by a spiritual act.

    Israel is different. It is by the physical act of parents to child. Continuity through the mother.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Probably because the people you say "came back" have no relationship to the people who were led away.
    Not Politically,
    Not Religiously,
    Not Genetically.

    They have no relationship whatsoever to the pre desolation Hebrews.

    A devastating fact to your view I know, but too bad for your view.

    Your view needs this fact not to be a fact, but I'm afraid it is indeed a fact, which is just too bad for your view.
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Again, Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel found in Matthew 1:1

    The promise was made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds, in Galatians 3:16

    Christians are "Abraham's seed" in inheritors of the promise, based on Galatians 3:27-29

    The land belongs to "the son" in Matthew chapter 21. It does not belong to those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone"

    When the Lord of the vineyard came and destroyed them, The kingdom was taken from the nation which rejected the "chief cornerstone" and given to the "holy nation" which accepts the "chief cornerstone" 1 Peter 2:4-10, Matthew 21:40-45

    Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the modern “Two Peoples of God” doctrine falls apart.

    The Church IS Israel
    . It's not a temporary replacement.

    The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

    Acts 7:38 speaks of "the church in the wilderness" with Moses. Likewise, Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

    The prophesied Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the people, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Peter 2:7-8/Matthew 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). And this is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day and in Elijah's day -- i.e., the REMNANT of the jews is true Israel and the rest are destroyed and do not have any heritage (Romans 9:27/Romans 11:2-5).

    Moreover, the apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Timothy 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ). The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

    Israelites that accept Christ don't cease to be Israel. Rather, they are the obedient Israel, the remnant of Israel, the elect of Israel. They were the church long before a single gentile was added to their number years later. The Church is Jewish and is Israel at its very foundations and origins (the Israeli apostles).

    Scripture consistently teaches The jews who refuse to get baptized get "cut off from among the people of God" (Acts 3:22-24) and cease to be "sons of Abraham." Such disobedient ones are called "sons of satan" (John 8:39-47/Revelation 2:9). The apostles and Mary and Joseph and their Jewish followers are TRUE ISRAEL and the true church. Those people went out and added gentiles to themselves as by a grafting in process to to the commonwealth of faithful, obedient Israel.

    That is the end game...One Holy nation of believers from all ethnicities. There is no future "national restoration" of Israel apart from the Global reconciliation of the world through the Church.
    There is no future, separate & distinct Nationwide repentance of Geopolitical, Secular, democratic Israel prophesied.

    Israel is made up of the following citizens:

    (1) Jesus and his first century Jewish followers and converts (Gal 6:15-16; Phil 3:3; 1 Peter 2:9)

    (2) The Old Testament believing jews and converts to the covenant (Eph 2:19-22)

    (3) The gentile converts who were added in during Paul's ministry and made partakers of Israel (Eph 2:11-3:11; Col 2:24-27; Romans 11:17-23)


    That is who Israel is according to the scriptures.

    The Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the people, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Pet 2:7-8/Mt 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). And Thomas, this is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day and in Elijah's day -- i.e., the REMNANT of the jews is true Israel and the rest are destroyed and do not have any heritage (Rom 9:27/Rom 11:2-5).

    You seem to have replaced the remnant of The true Israel with the Unfaithful wicked ones as the true Heirs today.

    In contrast to that teaching, The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23) All of which is in direct opposition to your teaching.

    You appear to count only the disobedient Jews as Israel!
    In your teaching, The obedient Israelites, who get baptized, somehow cease to be Israel. That's completely backwards. Completely. I hope you will someday teach the truth: namely, that the jews who refuse to get baptized get "cut off from among the people of God" (Acts 3:22-24) and cease to be "sons of Abraham." Such disobedient ones are called "sons of satan" (John 8:39-47/Rev 2:9). You appear to be turned completely around backwards with regard to this topic.

    Jesus, The apostles and Mary and Joseph and their Jewish & Gentile followers are TRUE ISRAEL and the true church.
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Thanks parousia, good comments.
    Neither do I. A Christian is an Overcomer, literally an Israelite of God, it is our appellation, our spiritual designation.
    Wrong on two counts.
    The Jews represent only two tribes, Judah and Benjamin, plus parts of other tribes that have been assimilated.
    The Jews have no proof that they descended from Judah. In fact there is historical evidence that the Ashkenazi Jews came from the Kharza peoples.
    A child whose parents, or just the mother; calls themselves Jewish, becoming a Jew by name only.
    A person becomes a Jew by converting to Judaism.

    The false teaching of a Jewish redemption, is part of the 'rapture to heaven' theory. The Jews stay on earth, while Christians float off to heaven. Neither are Biblical and neither can happen.

    When I visited Hebron, I saw a group of Haredi Jews. Several of them were obviously and horribly inbred.
    It is very bad practice to interbreed within a small gene pool.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The house of Judah, the southern kingdom, represents the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Because those were the lands apportioned to those two tribes in the infancy of Israel.

    Israel, the nation, in partial fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 is no longer a divided nation of the Judah and Ephraim.

    The map of modern day Israel covers the lands once making up the northern and southern kingdoms.

    The bigger part of the Jews who returned to the land of Israel following WWII experienced the time of Adolph Hitler's attempt to exterminate them. If someone like Adolph Hitler and his regime were aware of who is a Jews or not, why should you make such an argument of them in Israel not being Jews?

    Who is a Jew goes by if their mother is a Jew. In part, that determination came from the days of Nehemiah and Ezra, who shamed the Jerusalem caretaker Jews who had taken foreign wife's and had children by them - repeating the error Solomon made which ended up in the Babylonian exile - to send their foreign wife's and children away.

    In Judaism, called such by being the religion of the Jews, a rabbi once informed me - a person can become a Jew by process of converting to Judaism - the exception, not the norm. The norm to being a Jew though is by birth to a woman who is herself a Jew. It is not dependent upon religion. Jews who have no religion are considered secular Jews.

    And religious Jews who hold to the Judaism religion fall into a few basic divisions called reform, conservative, orthodox, ultra-orthodox.

    A rabbi once told me the difference is to what degree do they follow "Torah".

    ________________________________________________________________

    You have no argument from me regarding the extremism of the Haredi's in Israel.

    They will be among the many that will be deceived into thinking that the little horn person, following Gog/Magog is their King of Israel messiah.

    That's part of what you have not factored into your equation - exactly what being the Antichrist means.

    And the for 7 years already is in the bible in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Keras says....

    "When I visited Hebron, I saw a group of Haredi Jews. Several of them were obviously and horribly inbred.
    It is very bad practice to interbreed within a small gene pool."

    ...that seems to go against your argument, jgr.
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's not my argument.

    It's the Jewish community's own argument, Douggg.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    All a person has to do is look at a map of modern day Israel, and compare it to a map of divided Israel
    the territories of the northern and southern kingdoms to know that part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.
     
  19. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Prophesies like Ezekiel 37, are not fulfilled in part.
    It awaits the Spiritual regeneration of all Israelites, whoever they are; God only knows. But they certainly, they are far more than the so called Jews.

    Your peculiar beliefs, Douggg, have been well and truly rebutted and proved wrong:
    There is no 'rapture to heaven', for anyone at ANYTIME!
    There will be no Jewish redemption, only a remnant will be saved.
    The European Union is a dead dog.

    There is no false Messiah before Jesus Returns. God's people will elect their own leader. Hosea 1:11, Jeremiah 30:21
    The leader of the new World Government, will demand that he be worshipped as god, when he sits in the new Temple. 2 Thess 2:4
     
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