The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

keras

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Don't bother. No amount of scripture will change his mind.
No; because I regard side issues such who are the 24 Elders, as a childish way of diverting the thread topic.
It means you are losing the discussion.

It has been amply proved that those who call themselves Israel, are imposters, while the true Israelites of God, the faithful Christians, remain scattered among the nations.

May I suggest a careful reading of Isaiah 51:1-2. Verse 11 tells it how it will be, soon after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleared all of the holy Land.
 
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Douggg

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It has been amply proved that those who call themselves Israel, are imposters, while the true Israelites of God, the faithful Christians, remain scattered among the nations.
Christians were not the ones who were scattered. The Jews were because they rejected Jesus as their King of Israel messiah.

Ezekiel 38-39 is about those Jewish people. Jesus speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, having returned to this earth, recounts why they was taken captive, led into the nations.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
 
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Biblewriter

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It has been amply proved that those who call themselves Israel, are imposters, while the true Israelites of God, the faithful Christians, remain scattered among the nations.

This has NOT been conclusively proved. THAT proof exists only in YOUR mind.

I have repeatedly posted NUMEROUS scriptures that EXPLICITLY say the very opposite of what you are insisting upon.
 
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keras

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Ezekiel 38-39 is about those Jewish people. Jesus speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, having returned to this earth, recounts why they was taken captive, led into the nations.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Fail.
The Jews are the House of Judah.
Jesus came to save the House of Israel. Was He not successful?
This has NOT been conclusively proved. THAT proof exists only in YOUR mind.
Literal Israel and Spiritual Israel:
Throughout the New Testament, as well as in some prophecies of the Old Testament, the Bible makes a transition from literal Israel to spiritual Israel. Hosea 2:23, Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:29; Romans 9:11

In Revelation 12:1-17, we find this transition from literal to spiritual Israel in the prophetic language of symbols. In verse 2, the symbolic woman is pregnant. Her child is Jesus who was born a Jew in the land of Judah. In verse 4 the dragon/Satan seeks to destroy the child Jesus when He is born. This was fulfilled by Herod: Matthew 2:13-16.
In verse 5 the child is caught up to God in heaven, representing the resurrection of Christ.

As the prophecy progresses in verse 6, the woman no longer represents ethnic Israel but has now transitioned to spiritual Christian Israel: fleeing from persecution during the prophesied 42 months of the Great Tribulation. Verses 7-12 describes the victory gained over Satan by Jesus’ death on the Cross and how Satan and his angels are finally thrown down to the earth, 1260 days, three and a half years, the 42 month period before Jesus physically Returns.

Then, in verse 13 the woman is again brought to view, being persecuted by Satan. In verse 14 she is given wings of an eagle so as she can escape. Verses 6 and 14 present a major prophetic transition to God’s people. Both the woman and her place have changed from ethnic Israel in the Middle East to spiritual Israel and the place God has prepared for her.
Note that some Christians remain: verse 17 and Satan persecutes them. They are the ‘many’ that agreed to the 7 year treaty of peace with the Anti-Christ, Daniel 11:32a and do not go into exile: Zephaniah 14:2


It is important to understand three truths outlined in the prophecy and confirmed both in the New Testament and in the history of the church:
  1. After the death of Christ, the Israel of God, transitioned from literal Israel to spiritual Israel. From an ethnic people to all peoples. 1 Peter 2:9-10
  2. God’s faithful people: the woman, are moved from the holy Land to a place of safety on earth, given to her by God, to avoid the Great Tribulation.
  3. The new Israel of God: all true Christians, are the focal point of the New Testament and the inheritors of God’s promises to ancient Israel.
Thinking that God still has a plan to redeem ethnic Israel; the Jewish people, conflicts with many prophesies that say how Judah will be judged and only a remnant will survive. It is Christians, from every race, nation and language who are God’s true, righteous people. Galatians 6:16; the Overcomers for God. Literally; the Israelites of God.

The ‘woman’ in the latter part of this prophecy represents spiritual Israel: all the faithful believers in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28; Romans 2:28-29

Revelation 12 presents us with a prophetic outline of God’s Christian people in the symbolic form of a woman. In the first part of Revelation 12, the woman is the literal House of Judah located in Palestine, The latter part of the same prophecy makes use of the same symbols that took literal Israel on their journey to Canaan; to now describe the journey of the woman, the Christian Israelites of God, to a safe place on earth where they can worship Him in safety, until the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation have passed.
Ref: James Rafferty
 
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Biblewriter

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Fail.
The Jews are the House of Judah.
Jesus came to save the House of Israel. Was He not successful?

Literal Israel and Spiritual Israel:
Throughout the New Testament, as well as in some prophecies of the Old Testament, the Bible makes a transition from literal Israel to spiritual Israel. Hosea 2:23, Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:29; Romans 9:11

In Revelation 12:1-17, we find this transition from literal to spiritual Israel in the prophetic language of symbols. In verse 2, the symbolic woman is pregnant. Her child is Jesus who was born a Jew in the land of Judah. In verse 4 the dragon/Satan seeks to destroy the child Jesus when He is born. This was fulfilled by Herod: Matthew 2:13-16.
In verse 5 the child is caught up to God in heaven, representing the resurrection of Christ.

As the prophecy progresses in verse 6, the woman no longer represents ethnic Israel but has now transitioned to spiritual Christian Israel: fleeing from persecution during the prophesied 42 months of the Great Tribulation. Verses 7-12 describes the victory gained over Satan by Jesus’ death on the Cross and how Satan and his angels are finally thrown down to the earth, 1260 days, three and a half years, the 42 month period before Jesus physically Returns.

Then, in verse 13 the woman is again brought to view, being persecuted by Satan. In verse 14 she is given wings of an eagle so as she can escape. Verses 6 and 14 present a major prophetic transition to God’s people. Both the woman and her place have changed from ethnic Israel in the Middle East to spiritual Israel and the place God has prepared for her.
Note that some Christians remain: verse 17 and Satan persecutes them. They are the ‘many’ that agreed to the 7 year treaty of peace with the Anti-Christ, Daniel 11:32a and do not go into exile: Zephaniah 14:2


It is important to understand three truths outlined in the prophecy and confirmed both in the New Testament and in the history of the church:
  1. After the death of Christ, the Israel of God, transitioned from literal Israel to spiritual Israel. From an ethnic people to all peoples. 1 Peter 2:9-10
  2. God’s faithful people: the woman, are moved from the holy Land to a place of safety on earth, given to her by God, to avoid the Great Tribulation.
  3. The new Israel of God: all true Christians, are the focal point of the New Testament and the inheritors of God’s promises to ancient Israel.
Thinking that God still has a plan to redeem ethnic Israel; the Jewish people, conflicts with many prophesies that say how Judah will be judged and only a remnant will survive. It is Christians, from every race, nation and language who are God’s true, righteous people. Galatians 6:16; the Overcomers for God. Literally; the Israelites of God.

The ‘woman’ in the latter part of this prophecy represents spiritual Israel: all the faithful believers in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28; Romans 2:28-29

Revelation 12 presents us with a prophetic outline of God’s Christian people in the symbolic form of a woman. In the first part of Revelation 12, the woman is the literal House of Judah located in Palestine, The latter part of the same prophecy makes use of the same symbols that took literal Israel on their journey to Canaan; to now describe the journey of the woman, the Christian Israelites of God, to a safe place on earth where they can worship Him in safety, until the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation have passed.
Ref: James Rafferty
Even as you correctly point out that there is no scripture that actually SAYS Christians will be in heaven, the term "spiritual Israel" is totally foreign to scripture.
 
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Douggg

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Fail.
The Jews are the House of Judah.
Jesus came to save the House of Israel. Was He not successful?
The Jews are the House of Judah in the context of the split Kingdom. In the context of the united kingdom, the Jews are part of the nation of Israel.... which all of the tribes making up the nation of Israel is whole house of Israel.

Part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled in the Israel over there today, one united nation again, not two kingdoms split. Christians, the church, has never been part of the two kingdoms, because those began was back at the time of Solomon's death.

The Jews can mean several things as far as the whole house of Israel is concerned. At Jesus's time, them living in Jerusalem were considered "the Jews" while them in the province of Galilee for example, were called Galileans. Which Jesus traveled to different parts of the land of Israel.

Pilate, in John 19:19 the sign placed on the cross which Jesus was crucified as "Jesus of Nazareth The King of the Jews" not the King of Israel. Yet, when Jesus rode into Jerusalem, in John 12:12-15, he was hailed the King of Israel, not King of the Jews.

In Ezekiel 39, it references the whole house of Israel. In Romans 11:26, "all Israel shall be saved" infers the whole house of Israel and refers to Jacob written in text, which includes them of the house of Judah, i.e. the southern two tribes - which were in exile at the time Ezekiel lived in the Babylonian captivity.

Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Jacob, his twelve sons, and their descendants make up the whole house of Israel.

Paul made no claim of gentiles (who had become Christians) as being of the seed of Jacob.

You are not an Israelite. Christians by virtue of becoming Christians are not Israelite's, because they are not from Jacob's seed.

The claim of being of the seed of Abraham, spiritually, makes Christians as being Israel, Israelite's - is invalid.

.
 
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Douggg

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As the prophecy progresses in verse 6, the woman no longer represents ethnic Israel but has now transitioned to spiritual Christian Israel:
Why would "spiritual Christian Israel" - need to be witnessed to by the two witnesses, for their 1260 day time?
 
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Douggg

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Thinking that God still has a plan to redeem ethnic Israel; the Jewish people, conflicts with many prophesies that say how Judah will be judged and only a remnant will survive.
Israel is no longer divided into two kingdoms. It is one nation over there. Part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.
 
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keras

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Even as you correctly point out that there is no scripture that actually SAYS Christians will be in heaven, the term "spiritual Israel" is totally foreign to scripture.
The meaning of the Hebrew word 'israel', is to be an overcomer for God.
That is what we Christians are. We see overcomers in each of the seven Church's of Revelation. True, faithful Christians.
Why would "spiritual Christian Israel" - need to be witnessed to by the two witnesses, for their 1260 day time?
Because the Christian peoples there during the final seven years of this age, will be split into 2 groups. The ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the One World Govt, Daniel 9:27 and 11:32, will be taken to a place of safety on earth, Revelation 12:14 and those who did agree with it, must remain. Revelation 12:17
The Witnesses will preach to them.
Israel is no longer divided into two kingdoms. It is one nation over there. Part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.
Absolutely wrong.
In no way has any part of Ezekiel 37 been fulfilled.
Ezekiel 37:23 They shall never again be defiled with their idols and their loathsome ways......
In todays Israel? Take off your dipsy glasses and face the reality!
 
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Biblewriter

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The meaning of the Hebrew word 'israel', is to be an overcomer for God.
That is what we Christians are. We see overcomers in each of the seven Church's of Revelation. True, faithful Christians.

Because the Christian peoples there during the final seven years of this age, will be split into 2 groups. The ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the One World Govt, Daniel 9:27 and 11:32, will be taken to a place of safety on earth, Revelation 12:14 and those who did agree with it, must remain. Revelation 12:17
The Witnesses will preach to them.

Absolutely wrong.
In no way has any part of Ezekiel 37 been fulfilled.
Ezekiel 37:23 They shall never again be defiled with their idols and their loathsome ways......
In todays Israel? Take off your dipsy glasses and face the reality!
It is nothing short of nonsense to even imagine that Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled. They most certainly do NIT have a king, as is explicitly stated in Ezekiel 37:24.

Isaiah 66:15-20 and Ezekiel 20:33-38 BOTH make it VERY CLEAR that the promised return of Israel will not take place until AFTER the Lord returns.
 
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Douggg

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Absolutely wrong.
In no way has any part of Ezekiel 37 been fulfilled.
Ezekiel 37:23 They shall never again be defiled with their idols and their loathsome ways......
In todays Israel? Take off your dipsy glasses and face the reality!
The part of Ezekiel 37 of Israel no longer as divided north and south kingdoms has been fulfilled. The capital of Israel is Jerusalem.


OIP.ELmzZLl5cYPZkOnfFvWVbwHaFj


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sovereigngrace

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It is nothing short of nonsense to even imagine that Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled. They most certainly do NIT have a king, as is explicitly stated in Ezekiel 37:24.

Isaiah 66:15-20 and Ezekiel 20:33-38 BOTH make it VERY CLEAR that the promised return of Israel will not take place until AFTER the Lord returns.

Not so! It must either be an ancient battle, or else it is a modern symbolic battle. What it definitely isn’t is a literal modern battle as most Premils argue.

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).

In short, I believe this battle has been fulfilled.
 
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Douggg

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Not so! It must either be an ancient battle, or else it is a modern symbolic battle. What it definitely isn’t is a literal modern battle as most Premils argue.

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).

In short, I believe this battle has been fulfilled.
You are using faulty rationale. The horses, bows and arrows, bucklers and shields represent implements of war. Cattle and goods represent wealth.

The mass grave site of Gog's army does not exist in the land of Israel - proving the Gog/Magog event is still future.
 
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keras

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Isaiah 66:15-20 and Ezekiel 20:33-38 BOTH make it VERY CLEAR that the promised return of Israel will not take place until AFTER the Lord returns.
Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 make it crystal clear that Jerusalem and all the holy land, will be occupied by God's holy people, before the Return.

Many other prophesies confirm this and how the Lord will clear and cleanse the Land for His faithful people.
They are there soon after the Sixth Seal event; Revelation 7:9
The part of Ezekiel 37 of Israel no longer as divided north and south kingdoms has been fulfilled. The capital of Israel is Jerusalem.
The Jewish State merely occupies a tiny portion of all the holy Land. From the Nile to the Euphrates.
Ezekiel 37 is about people; not land.
 
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Douggg

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The Jewish State merely occupies a tiny portion of all the holy Land. From the Nile to the Euphrates.
Ezekiel 37 is about people; not land.
Israel in its infancy was apportioned according to the twelve tribes. Israel split into two kingdoms following Solomon's death with the borders of the two kingdoms according to the 10 northern tribes and the 2 southern tribes.

Modern day Israel is one nation made up the lands once of the two kingdoms - prophecy of no longer being two separate kingdoms - that portion of Ezekiel 37 fulfilled.

The issue of Israel during the messianic age having the borders from the Nile to the Euphrates after Jesus returns is a separate issue and has not been fulfilled.
 
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keras

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Modern day Israel is one nation made up the lands once of the two kingdoms - prophecy of no longer being two separate kingdoms - that portion of Ezekiel 37 fulfilled.
Modern Israel does not in any way fit the prophesies of Ezekiel 37.
It represents just the House of Judah and them in apostasy. Their Judgment and punishment is imminent.
 
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Douggg

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Modern Israel does not in any way fit the prophesies of Ezekiel 37.
It represents just the House of Judah and them in apostasy. Their Judgment and punishment is imminent.
Map don't lie.
 
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Biblewriter

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Modern Israel does not in any way fit the prophesies of Ezekiel 37.
It represents just the House of Judah and them in apostasy. Their Judgment and punishment is imminent.
This is correct'
 
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Even as you correctly point out that there is no scripture that actually SAYS Christians will be in heaven, the term "spiritual Israel" is totally foreign to scripture.
The concept of spiritual Israel is not foreign to scripture, however.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Paul taught here in the passage above that there is an Israel that not all who are descendants of the nation of Israel are part. And he indicates that being part of this Israel has nothing to do with one's nationality or being a natural descendant of Abraham, but rather has to do with being one of the children of God who are identified as being "the children of the promise" and "Abraham's offspring".

And we know from Galatians 3:26-29 that it is those who have faith in Christ, regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile, that are the children of God and are counted as Abraham's seed and children of the promise. So, that makes all Christians part of the Israel of which "not all who are descended from Israel" are part. And that is spiritual Israel.

Dispensationalists like yourself butcher this passage terribly when trying to interpret it and have no understanding at all of what it actually means.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

The Israel mentioned here in the passage above cannot possibly be referring to the nation of Israel because it says the Gentiles were once "far away" but "have been brought near by the blood of Christ". Obviously, the blood of Christ does not bring Gentiles near to the nation of Israel, so this has to be talking about bringing Gentiles near to spiritual Israel.

Galatians 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

Verse 16 in the passage above refers to "all who follow this rule". Who are they? It is those who have experienced being made a "new creation" in Christ. And Paul defines them as being part of "the Israel of God". That is clearly a spiritual entity (spiritual Israel) and can't possibly be referring to the nation of Israel.
 
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The concept of spiritual Israel is not foreign to scripture, however.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Paul taught here in the passage above that there is an Israel that not all who are descendants of the nation of Israel are part. And he indicates that being part of this Israel has nothing to do with one's nationality or being a natural descendant of Abraham, but rather has to do with being one of the children of God who are identified as being "the children of the promise" and "Abraham's offspring".

This is not even approximately what the Holy Spirit was here saying through Paul. He went on to say, "For this is the word of promise: 'At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.' And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, 'The older shall serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.' " (Romans 9:9-1)

So God himself gave two examples to show what He meant by verses 6-8. And each of these examples were cases of God choosing some, but not all of the natural seed of Abraham. This scripture does not even imply that any person who was not physically descended from Abraham could be an Israelite.

And we know from Galatians 3:26-29 that it is those who have faith in Christ, regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile, that are the children of God and are counted as Abraham's seed and children of the promise. So, that makes all Christians part of the Israel of which "not all who are descended from Israel" are part. And that is spiritual Israel.

This is merely human reasoning being applied to what God said. This scripture indeed says that those "in Christ" are "Abraham's seed," and "heirs according to the promise." But it does not say that being "on Christ" makes us "Israel."

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

The Israel mentioned here in the passage above cannot possibly be referring to the nation of Israel because it says the Gentiles were once "far away" but "have been brought near by the blood of Christ". Obviously, the blood of Christ does not bring Gentiles near to the nation of Israel, so this has to be talking about bringing Gentiles near to spiritual Israel.

Again, you are applying human reasoning to what God said. But this time, you are using that reasoning to wrest what God said. for the Greek word here translated "citizenship" is "politia." The only other place it occurs in the New Testament is Acts 22:28, "The commander answered, "With a large sum I obtained this citizenship." The root of this word is "polites," which means a "citizen" This word is used three times in the New Testament:

"Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine." Luke 15:15

"But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We will not have this man to reign over us.' " Luke 19:14

and

"But Paul said, 'I am a Jew from Tarsus, in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city; and I implore you, permit me to speak to the people.' " Acts 21:39

I have gone through all this to demonstrate that every other time this word, or its root word, was used in the entire New Testament, it was spoken of citizenship in a nation or a city. So your argument that it did not mean that in Ephesians 2:12 is simply nonsense.

And this passage, again, simply does not say that we become Israelites, but that we are "brought near."

Galatians 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.
Verse 16 in the passage above refers to "all who follow this rule". Who are they? It is those who have experienced being made a "new creation" in Christ. And Paul defines them as being part of "the Israel of God". That is clearly a spiritual entity (spiritual Israel) and can't possibly be referring to the nation of Israel.

The translation you are using here wrests the Greek of this statement. What the Greek text og Galatians 6:16 actually says is: "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." Galatians 6:16 The second and in this verse is plainly there in the Greek text, as the Greek word "kai," which occurs twice in the Greek text of this sentence.
the word "and" (kai) before the words "the Israel of God," plainly differentiates "the Israel of God" from "as many as walk according to this rule." So this scripture is actually saying the very opposite of what you imaine it says. It is making "the Israel of God" a different group from "as many as walk according to this rule."

So, not only does the term "spiritual Israel" not occur anywhere in the entire Bible, neither is that concept taught in the Bible
 
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