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The phenomenon and the explanation

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Phred, Jul 8, 2021.

  1. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    I was only referencing the developmental milestone.

    Animal morality= if it feels good do it.
    We inherently know what is wrong to do to another human. We don't want anyone to do it to us, we know. That's not how other animals think.
     
  2. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    So it's not a part of all humans.

    Not true. Animals make mistakes and feel bad as well.

    I've seen dogs shift behavior after biting someone it liked or stole food it shouldn't have?

    Things like violence and empathy are extremely common among humans... but cultural pressures can change that. And even if they are very common, even that isn't universal among humans.
     
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  3. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    In post #300 you said this. It seems conclusive to me.
    On the contrary. Let's look at the sequence.
    In post #290 you make this claim: "Lots of ways to detect things. If you see something die the something isn't 'here' anymore even though everything we saw still is."

    To refute this all I need to do is show "everything we saw" is not still there.
    I then provided, in post #292, four examples of things that "were not still there", though we hade seen them in the living creature. Yet these four (respiration, blood, circulation, neuron firing and coordinated muscular activity) are processes for which we have detailed, material explanations. Thus your initial claim from post #290 was refuted.

    You then spent the next couple of posts wriggling around and trying to change the subject. Some might suspect dishonesty. I don't. I think you are just guilty of confused, illogical, disconnected arguments.
     
  4. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    You're the one who said it wasn't a universal truth. It's a part of human nature.

    Mistakes? You mean sometimes they zig instead of zag? Feel bad? You mean they're still hungry because they didn't zig?

    Attachment and training explain that.

    Childhood neglect hardens more hearts than cultures I think. That doesn't mean the powers of intellect aren't exclusively human in nature.
     
  5. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    So we don't see movement is your point? Biological 'processes have stopped their movements. I used the word 'die' to describe that.
     
  6. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    This is not rocket science. You claimed that when "we saw something die then something was absent even though everything else we saw was still there". The implication was that this missing thing was the soul. However, your statement that "everything else we saw was still there" is false. I gave four examples of things we had seen that were no longer there. Thus your argument is absolutely refuted.
     
  7. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    If it isn't a part of all humans it clearly isn't. It's just statistically likely among our species to have empathy and reasoning.

    No, intelligent social species have literally bad reactions when they perform an action they immediately regret.

    Why doesn't this apply to humans too?

    That's not an argument.

    There's a trait that you claim to be exclusively human, but similar behaviors are found in non-humans and that trait can be either not found or warped in humans seems to indicate that your assertion is base less.
     
  8. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    Every thing is there. You are thinking movement is something we don't see any more. The movement is evidence of life. If it isn't moving any more that will surely seem like somethings missing. But it's not the lack of movement alone, it's the life that once moved it. That's something isn't it?
     
  9. Hans Blaster

    Hans Blaster On campaign in Georgia

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    Yes, dead things don't move themselves. So what? There is not "animating life force" that has been demonstrated.
     
  10. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    There just isn't a gradual evolutionary growth of intellect to be found amongst the other animals. Intellect burst onto the scene it didn't slowly rise. Instantaneous. Remember what that indicates?
    The evidence of intellect covers the earth. All of it human.
    It's a part of human nature to be empathetic.

    It does. The one's pretending.

    There are homosapiens, people with bodies like ours who didn't seem to manifest intellect. You might not be able to distinguish those who do and don't have it. But among them sprung explorers. People who were curious about their world. After being planted for millenia half the population got froggy the other half stayed put. This was 250,000 years ago. The explorers formed communities in far off lands and began trading. Invented money and mathematics.
    That's evidence of intellect .
     
  11. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    Not true.

    Other hominids had cooperation and tool use, just less sophisticated than us.

    But not everyone has it... and animals definitely can have it.


    Pretending what?

    I'm concerned about what you might be implying here, can you clarify what you are describing?
     
  12. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    Just some odd primordial human history. Looks like intellect emerging. After many thousands of years,. living in the same place living the same way. A radical shift... Not just a shift in what fulfills human life but activities never before imagined fulfill human life.
    Intellect and intelligence aren't the same thing. A bug has intelligence.

    Not everyone is damaged as others. Animals seem to, especially maternal behavior. I don't believe talk therapy is in their future.

    Pretending to be empathetic.:grinning:
     
  13. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    That's word salad: an incoherent concatenation of random words in the hope they might fool somebody. You may be able to fool yourself, but anyone who is competent in biology and language will not be fooled.

    Please note, perhaps there is a soul, but what you claim as evidence for a soul is valueless. I have refuted it in this thread. If you are unable to understand how it has been refuted I cannot help you any further. You can repeat your assertion as often as you wish. It won't change anything.
    If you wish to offer evidence for a soul, you need to search further and harder. Or you could just accept it on faith. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem at inept, flawed assertions that use a gross misunderstanding of biology to justify such a belief.
     
  14. Hans Blaster

    Hans Blaster On campaign in Georgia

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    Can you locate and date this sudden burst of intellect emerging?

    What is the data that shows that intellect wasn't around before the "burst" and that it was after?
     
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  15. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    That's cultural and technological change.

    If you took the child of a cave man and gave them to a modern family to raise in our time you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from their class mates.

    Then we are back to it not being clear how you define or detect intellect and if it's a human trait.

    Here's a good example. We have animals with the nurturing traits that aren't just selfish instinct, but intelligence needed for speech is different.

    Sociopaths who don't have a good ability to feel empathy can still learn to behave, true.

    But also people with more normal empathy reactions can be socially conditioned to behave monstrously.
     
  16. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    The first living things were shaped by the world. Then intellect arrived and the world is shaped by a living thing.
    Right. After thousands of years of none. That required a radical psychological and spiritual change.

    So the caveman is our ancestor. A proper analogy would have the child inventing a modern family.

    True that. Still, intelligence as used is not intellect.
     
  17. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    I'm still totally unclear about what your idea of "intellect" is.

    It seems to vary between being empathy, philosophy and intelligence depending on context.

    Technology builds on technology and the stone age didn't allow for rapid expansion of either tool use or population. Survival was the only game in town.

    The change really wasn't that abrupt.

    Many of the native North American people built no cites and didn't live in permanent settlements, but were clearly as intelligent and sophisticated as any other humans.

    I don't understand your point.

    My point was that people with stone age technology and culture can be brought into modern understanding in a single generation.

    I'm still not following what that means.

    There doesn't seem to be a trait that is both not found in some form in animals and found in all humans.
     
  18. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    In fairness, many anthropologists see a evidence of a change during the 35,000 to 70,000 years bp. In evolutionary terms that's quite sudden.
     
  19. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    Not my idea. St. Thomas Aquinas. Think of the source of the senses. Sight-eyes, touch-nerves, taste-toungue, smell-nose etc. The sensitive powers find their source in various organs of the body. The powers of intellect are not found in any specific organ of the body.

    The people I mentioned were surviving fine. They started a new game.

    Not so much the time it took as the type of fulfillment sought. From sedentary contentment to taking dominion of the earth.

    Of course. Their ancestors must have been explorers since they migrated to the western hemisphere. They did have permanent settlements. Check out Montezuma's castle in Arizona.

    My point is these stone age people brought themselves into the modern age. Half of them did anyway.

    That misses my point.


    The traits that give humans the power to shape the world rather than be shaped by it.
     
  20. Hans Blaster

    Hans Blaster On campaign in Georgia

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    Umm. The brain.

    There is no intellect located within any other part of the human.
     
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