The periphrastic perfect.

[YeshuaFan]

Why didn't Jesus just say that then? He SAID they "believed". The fact that their faith didn't last doesn't make it a "false belief" as you opine. So your "example" is nothing but a construct.


How do you explain the plain FACT that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th soils ALL produced a plant from the seed (God's word)?

Taking your theory to it's logical conclusion, a "false belief" should NOT have even produced a plant.

Just because a plant has no root doesn't mean the plant is a "false plant". In fact, that is absurd.

The FACT that plants were produced PROVES new life from the seed. You can't get around that.


Really? Who was Paul addressing; unbelievers who needed salvation, or already saved people for a specific reason?

So you're going to argue that a faith that doesn't express itself "through love" is somehow a false faith?

I think you're skating on very thin ice here. If that were true, then EVERY verse that speaks of salvation or eternal life being dependent upon faith SHOULD HAVE and WOULD HAVE included this extra condition: expressing itself through love.

You have no evidence for your theory.


Well, what you mean is still in error. Believing is believing.


No, God doesn't change our character. We CONTINUE TO DEAL with our sin nature, with all it's pimples, etc. Including our character flaws. iow, we continue to sin.

The Christian life can only be lived in the power of the Holy Spirit. So it's NOT our own character that is changed. Living the Christian life is evidence of living the character of Christ, through the Spirit. Gal 5:22,23 are the character qualities of Christ that are produced in the believer who is filled with the Spirit.

Those believers who, instead of being filled with the Spirit, grieve or quench the Spirit, fulfill the lusts of their flesh, per Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

And this is the list that Paul includes with what he is referring to:
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Here are the character qualitites of Christ that are produced when we walk by the Spirit (being filled with the Spirit):
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


Still not reading the verse correctly. The condition for producing a harvest of righteousness" is DIRECTLY RELATED to "being trained by it (God's discipline). And I already explained that NOT everyone who undergoes discipline is trained by it. Some become resentful, etc. Just like children being disciplined by parents.


It's all dependent upon being in fellowship with the Lord and being filled with the Spirit.

I suspect that you cannot explain how to achieve either of these things.


No, He doesn't turn us into robots or puppets. We are changed WHEN we are in fellowship, and filled with the Spirit. We live and act like unbelievers (both moral or immoral) WHEN we are out of fellowship and grieving/quenching the Spirit.

So, can you explain how one gets into fellowship with the Lord, and is filled with the Spirit?

Hint: it isn't automatic, nor is it mystical. There are verses that plainly address this.

The only soil that was speaking of one being really saved though was the last one, where there was many times returns from it!

 

[com7fy8]

Why didn't Jesus just say that then? He SAID they "believed". The fact that their faith didn't last doesn't make it a "false belief" as you opine. So your "example" is nothing but a construct.

He does say they had "no root". Belief without root is false belief, which does not keep the person. It is unreliable, therefore false. YeshuaFan puts it simple enough >

During trials and suffering, those who merely professing faith in Jesus but were never saved and rooted into Him will fall away...

And I have offered how my intellectual belief has been not real belief which is in God's love.

I personally understand how having root can mean being joined to Jesus, not only believing from some separate distance >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

@Gr8Grace > if we have been joined to Jesus, in becoming saved, this is with a union which is of God and therefore almighty so we can not get away. But then in our union comes the communion because of how God changes our character more and more to be like Jesus so it is more and more strongly not our nature to choose to leave God > Galatians 4:19.

So, of course Satan is going to be in denial about this, since this is about all which is possible with God and not about what is possible for us; Satan so easily took down Adam and Eve, in the Garden, even while they were perfect creatures. But salvation is about how God is able.

We have trusted in Christ > Ephesians 1:12 < we are not forsaken by God so it depends on us now to keep ourselves choosing him, but "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13) It is thanks and credit to God > Romans 6:17.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The only soil that was speaking of one being really saved though was the last one, where there was many times returns from it!

I disagree. The fact that 3 soils had plants that actually sprouted from the seeds (God's word) is a clear indication that Jesus considered them saved.

Only the first soil didn't produce any plants, and Jesus explained why very clearly:
Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Any questions?

Once again, only the first soil didn't produce any plants. And the first soil wasn't saved. The only one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He does say they had "no root". Belief without root is false belief, which does not keep the person.

I've already explained that for your theory to be logical and consistent, the soil would have to have "no plant", not "no root".

Are you actually not aware that plants can sprout from seeds, and due to a variety of reasons, not produce a root? Does no root mean that the plant is a "false plant"?

It is unreliable, therefore false.

Says who? What is unreliable? There IS a plant. Deal with it. Ask any gardner about plants and roots.

YeshuaFan puts it simple enough >
And I have offered how my intellectual belief has been not real belief which is in God's love.

The Bible never distinguishes belief into any kind odf categories. Or haven't you noticed?

However, consider 1 Cor 15:2, which mentions "believe in vain". Guess what? This isn't a false faith either. The Greek word for "in vain" means "without reason".

So, what does that mean? It means having no object or goal of faith. Faith or trust in ANYTHING REQUIRES 2 things: an object and a goal for that faith.

So, saving faith requires the Lord Jesus Christ (Son of God) as the object, and the goal of salvation.

So, to believe in vain means to have no reason for faith, or, iow, to believe in Him for reasons other than for salvation.

Such as, what all the phony prosperity TV preachers preach about;
Believe in Christ for:
a better job
a better wife
a better car
a better life
etc.

That's believing in vain.

To believe in vain is to NOT get what you are believing for.

Kinda like believing in Santa Claus and expecting toys under the Christmas tree on Dec 25. You ain't gonna get any from Santa. You believed in vain.

But it CANNOT be said that believing in the Son of God for salvation is in vain, and you ain't gonna get salvation. You sure will.

I personally understand how having root can mean being joined to Jesus, not only believing from some separate distance >

Please explain. I have no idea what you mean by "separate distance".

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

This describes the state of a believer. They ARE joined with Him.

Eph 1:13,14 expands on this.

 

[YeshuaFan]

He does say they had "no root". Belief without root is false belief, which does not keep the person. It is unreliable, therefore false. YeshuaFan puts it simple enough >
And I have offered how my intellectual belief has been not real belief which is in God's love.

I personally understand how having root can mean being joined to Jesus, not only believing from some separate distance >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

@Gr8Grace > if we have been joined to Jesus, in becoming saved, this is with a union which is of God and therefore almighty so we can not get away. But then in our union comes the communion because of how God changes our character more and more to be like Jesus so it is more and more strongly not our nature to choose to leave God > Galatians 4:19.

So, of course Satan is going to be in denial about this, since this is about all which is possible with God and not about what is possible for us; Satan so easily took down Adam and Eve, in the Garden, even while they were perfect creatures. But salvation is about how God is able.

We have trusted in Christ > Ephesians 1:12 < we are not forsaken by God so it depends on us now to keep ourselves choosing him, but "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13) It is thanks and credit to God > Romans 6:17.

Demons shudder and believe that God exists, but they are not saved, neither are lost sinners who knew God exists and is real, and yet have refused to received Jesus as their Lord!

 

[Gr8Grace]

@Gr8Grace >

if we have been joined to Jesus, in becoming saved, this is with a union which is of God and therefore almighty so we can not get away. But then in our union comes the communion because of how God changes our character more and more to be like Jesus so it is more and more strongly not our nature to choose to leave God > Galatians 4:19.

Which is why the OP brings up the tenses or aspects of our salvation.

Our union, born-again, new creation, regenerated human spirit with Christ is NEVER brought up again after we are saved. It's dealt with in the past, in the present, and in the future.

What is dealt with after we are FOREVER saved...........Is our soul life(heart/right lobe of the brain/our thinking), works, abiding, walking in the Spirit, being filled with the spirit, fellowship.........all things that are PROFIT from the initial FOREVER investment.( Being given eternal life.) John 10:28

We have been saved. Eph 2:8. Our union with Christ solidified. Past,present and future.

After this fact, we are to abide,fellowship and grow in His grace and knowledge. If we choose not to........many believers have no clue how to choose Gods plan for them.

It is very true that our born-again human spirit desires the things of God. But if a believer is quenching or grieving the Spirit.............they are carnal and desire the things of the flesh.

But his spirit is saved......1 Cor 5:5New American Standard Bible
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Read James in this light. Our regenerated human Spirit is forever saved and has eternal life.

But our soul, needs to be inculcated/implanted with His word to 'save' us from everyday life and bad HUMAN viewpoint. If we don't abide in Him and apply His mind in this life. How can we be saved from all of our bad choices from human viewpoint?

 

[Gr8Grace]

The only soil that was speaking of one being really saved though was the last one, where there was many times returns from it!

If you switch to what the bible is really saying.......You will see that the soils represent believers who really were productive or not productive.

Soil 1 never believed(unsaved). The other soils believed(saved/have eternal life.) And whether or not they are really productive is the question. Not if they were really saved or not.

 

[com7fy8]

BY GRACE ,We have been saved in the Past, we are saved and we WILL be saved. It is all by Grace.

Every believer is assured to be conformed to His image............But many, many,many don't do it in this lifetime. They will have to changed at the Bema seat of Christ, under shame and as if through fire.....because they didn't abide in Him and they didn't heed Gods discipline.

Oh, so you believe that ones can believe, then live in a sinful mess until they die, then be conformed to Jesus. I have heard this, before.

I am not sure about this, because Isaiah 55:11 says God's word is guaranteed to do all which God pleases. I don't think He pleases to save someone, then not continue in this life to have the person conforming to Jesus. Paul does say "we all" are being changed into that same image, right?

2 Corinthians 3:17-18

If you know Greek, which I don't, you might know if there is some pluperfect or whatever sense or tense to "are being transformed". So, in case this does mean that all of us in Jesus > "we all" > are now being changed into His likeness by the Holy Spirit . . . there would be no putting this off to after we die.

And in 1 John 4:17 John says "Love has been" made perfect among "us" . . . "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." So, I see from this, this is already happening, no wiggle room for procrastination until after we die.

But from what I have quoted you to be saying, below, possibly you believe the person is in spirit being conformed, but not in one's soul.

But . . . my opinion . . . the soul and spirit are related. What is in the spirit effects how our soul is.

And doesn't believing include obeying? Romans 6:17

And through Philippians 2:12-13 I see how God's increase includes increase in obedience; and being renewed in our spirit includes being changed into an obedient spirit and nature, so the person will live more and more maturely in obedience to Jesus.

1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I offer I understand this is where you are coming from > to think ones can not walk with God during this life, but at judgment be changed.

But I have considered this scripture can mean a person lives selfishly while still not strong and mature as a newer child of God. But God then more and more deeply corrects the person's character > Hebrews 12:4-14; and we help one another > James 5:16. So, the person loses rewards one could have from one's earlier saved life, but then the person goes through fire to correction, then doing works of love before dying.

The fact that 3 soils had plants that actually sprouted from the seeds (God's word) is a clear indication that Jesus considered them saved.

But doesn't a person need to become "joined to the Lord" (in 1 Corinthians 6:17)? This would root the person to the Holy Spirit, so the person has roots, in being saved.

Does no root mean that the plant is a "false plant"?

It's a real plant, yes, but not a really saved plant if it does not have root in Jesus and in love. Paul talks about how Christians are "rooted and grounded in love" (Ephesians 3:14-21, and "knit together in love" (Colossians 2:2).

But it CANNOT be said that believing in the Son of God for salvation is in vain, and you ain't gonna get salvation. You sure will.

Yes, if your belief is in Jesus for salvation. But if someone is trusting in Jesus in some way just copycatting what the person is told to do, inside the person the person is not believing for salvation. The person could have other preconceived motives and ideas, so it would be false.

Also, if I am only believing in my head . . . not enough.

Plus, there were Jews who were trusting in Jesus because they intended to use Him to defeat the Roman occupation. So, their belief was not for salvation.

Our union, born-again, new creation, regenerated human spirit with Christ is NEVER brought up again after we are saved. It's dealt with in the past, in the present, and in the future.

But won't our such union with Jesus have an effect on our nature? And this will continue. It is God who begins this good work, then continues it; so it is not forgotten > Philippians 1:6

What is dealt with after we are FOREVER saved...........Is our soul life(heart/right lobe of the brain/our thinking), works, abiding, walking in the Spirit, being filled with the spirit, fellowship.........all things that are PROFIT from the initial FOREVER investment.( Being given eternal life.)

But when we got saved, He made us alive (Ephesians 2:1). And Romans 5:5 shows how God's own love is in "our hearts" which are spiritual. So, the life of what got us started makes us more and more alive in God's love which works in our nature and soul; I don't think you can separate the two. What effects one will effect the other.

For example, "perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment" (in 1 John 4:18). I suppose you would think "fear" is a soul thing, wouldn't you? In case you do > God's Holy Spirit, spiritual, love "casts out fear". And this gets rid of all the "torment" of fear . . . a lot of different mean and cruel sorts of emotional torment which are connected with fear.

So, if He gets us started in union with Him, this is His almighty power's union which can't be broken, plus this almighty power "casts out fear". They can't stay together.

We have been saved. Eph 2:8. Our union with Christ solidified. Past,present and future.

I think saved means safe, in various ways.

After this fact, we are to abide,fellowship and grow in His grace and knowledge. If we choose not to........many believers have no clue how to choose Gods plan for them.

But why would one know how, but another would not . . . if all have been saved the same way by grace? How can one be somehow superior and obey while another doesn't?

Hebrews 12:4-14 says God corrects each of His children.

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

This is a basic of getting saved. We trust Jesus by submitting to Him. And then in submission He does all He pleases with us. And He knows what to do, at each moment; we find out

But our soul, needs to be inculcated/implanted with His word to 'save' us from everyday life and bad HUMAN viewpoint. If we don't abide in Him and apply His mind in this life. How can we be saved from all of our bad choices from human viewpoint?

Yes, we need how His word works in our soul. But I think we can not totally separate soul from spirit, and I offered one example of this > 1 John 4:18.

And, in any case, we have basics to do now if we haven't, trusting God to have us doing these with Him, how He in us works >

submit to God

have mutual confession and prayer to get us "healed" into more mature oneness with Jesus in us > James 5:16

stay with what our Father rules us to do in His peace, how He has us relating, how His peace has our hearts becoming

and all else . . .

 

[YeshuaFan]

Oh, so you believe that ones can believe, then live in a sinful mess until they die, then be conformed to Jesus. I have heard this, before.

I am not sure about this, because Isaiah 55:11 says God's word is guaranteed to do all which God pleases. I don't think He pleases to save someone, then not continue in this life to have the person conforming to Jesus. Paul does say "we all" are being changed into that same image, right?

2 Corinthians 3:17-18

If you know Greek, which I don't, you might know if there is some pluperfect or whatever sense or tense to "are being transformed". So, in case this does mean that all of us in Jesus > "we all" > are now being changed into His likeness by the Holy Spirit . . . there would be no putting this off to after we die.

And in 1 John 4:17 John says "Love has been" made perfect among "us" . . . "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." So, I see from this, this is already happening, no wiggle room for procrastination until after we die.

But from what I have quoted you to be saying, below, possibly you believe the person is in spirit being conformed, but not in one's soul.

But . . . my opinion . . . the soul and spirit are related. What is in the spirit effects how our soul is.

And doesn't believing include obeying? Romans 6:17

And through Philippians 2:12-13 I see how God's increase includes increase in obedience; and being renewed in our spirit includes being changed into an obedient spirit and nature, so the person will live more and more maturely in obedience to Jesus.

I offer I understand this is where you are coming from > to think ones can not walk with God during this life, but at judgment be changed.

But I have considered this scripture can mean a person lives selfishly while still not strong and mature as a newer child of God. But God then more and more deeply corrects the person's character > Hebrews 12:4-14; and we help one another > James 5:16. So, the person loses rewards one could have from one's earlier saved life, but then the person goes through fire to correction, then doing works of love before dying.

But doesn't a person need to become "joined to the Lord" (in 1 Corinthians 6:17)? This would root the person to the Holy Spirit, so the person has roots, in being saved.

It's a real plant, yes, but not a really saved plant if it does not have root in Jesus and in love. Paul talks about how Christians are "rooted and grounded in love" (Ephesians 3:14-21, and "knit together in love" (Colossians 2:2).

Yes, if your belief is in Jesus for salvation. But if someone is trusting in Jesus in some way just copycatting what the person is told to do, inside the person the person is not believing for salvation. The person could have other preconceived motives and ideas, so it would be false.

Also, if I am only believing in my head . . . not enough.

Plus, there were Jews who were trusting in Jesus because they intended to use Him to defeat the Roman occupation. So, their belief was not for salvation.

But won't our such union with Jesus have an effect on our nature? And this will continue. It is God who begins this good work, then continues it; so it is not forgotten > Philippians 1:6

But when we got saved, He made us alive (Ephesians 2:1). And Romans 5:5 shows how God's own love is in "our hearts" which are spiritual. So, the life of what got us started makes us more and more alive in God's love which works in our nature and soul; I don't think you can separate the two. What effects one will effect the other.

For example, "perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment" (in 1 John 4:18). I suppose you would think "fear" is a soul thing, wouldn't you? In case you do > God's Holy Spirit, spiritual, love "casts out fear". And this gets rid of all the "torment" of fear . . . a lot of different mean and cruel sorts of emotional torment which are connected with fear.

So, if He gets us started in union with Him, this is His almighty power's union which can't be broken, plus this almighty power "casts out fear". They can't stay together.
I think saved means safe, in various ways.

But why would one know how, but another would not . . . if all have been saved the same way by grace? How can one be somehow superior and obey while another doesn't?

Hebrews 12:4-14 says God corrects each of His children.

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

This is a basic of getting saved. We trust Jesus by submitting to Him. And then in submission He does all He pleases with us. And He knows what to do, at each moment; we find out

Yes, we need how His word works in our soul. But I think we can not totally separate soul from spirit, and I offered one example of this > 1 John 4:18.

And, in any case, we have basics to do now if we haven't, trusting God to have us doing these with Him, how He in us works >

submit to God

have mutual confession and prayer to get us "healed" into more mature oneness with Jesus in us > James 5:16

stay with what our Father rules us to do in His peace, how He has us relating, how His peace has our hearts becoming

and all else . . .

Our behavior after salvation will determine on how sanctified we shall become in this life, and as to what, if any, eternal rewards we may have, but nothing to do with salvation itself!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The fact that 3 soils had plants that actually sprouted from the seeds (God's word) is a clear indication that Jesus considered them saved."

But doesn't a person need to become "joined to the Lord" (in 1 Corinthians 6:17)?

Everyone who believes in Christ for salvation IS joined to the Lord. It's called union with Christ by means of the sealing with the Holy Spirit. eph 1:13,14.

This would root the person to the Holy Spirit, so the person has roots, in being saved.

Salvation is by faith in Christ. No mention is made of "having roots" equaling salvation.

I said:
"Does no root mean that the plant is a "false plant"?"

It's a real plant, yes, but not a really saved plant if it does not have root in Jesus and in love.

You are adding to what isn't in Scripture. A real plant equals a saved plant.

The whole issue of the parable is bearing fruit. Jesus gave 2 examples of believers who didn't bear fruit and why. But there is nothing about not being saved, except for the first soil, per Luke 8:12.

Paul talks about how Christians are "rooted and grounded in love" (Ephesians 3:14-21, and "knit together in love" (Colossians 2:2).

And this isn't about getting saved.

I said:
"But it CANNOT be said that believing in the Son of God for salvation is in vain, and you ain't gonna get salvation. You sure will."

Yes, if your belief is in Jesus for salvation.

That's what I've been saying all along.

But if someone is trusting in Jesus in some way just copycatting what the person is told to do, inside the person the person is not believing for salvation.

Of course not. No one is saved by being "told what to do".

The person could have other preconceived motives and ideas, so it would be false.

Then it wouldn't be saving faith, would it?

Also, if I am only believing in my head . . . not enough.

Uh, where do your thoughts come from? Name the body part. That's help me understand how you were built.

Plus, there were Jews who were trusting in Jesus because they intended to use Him to defeat the Roman occupation. So, their belief was not for salvation.

Exactly! And you just proved my point.

Saving faith requires 2 things; an object, which is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the goal, which is eternal salvation. In your excellent example, they didn't have either thing. They weren't trusting in Jesus as the Son of God. They saw Him as a political leader only, who would free them from Rome. So no go.

Plus, their "faith in Him" was for deliverance (salvation) from Rome, not the lake of fire.

So you are quite correct. They didn't have saving faith in Christ.

But won't our such union with Jesus have an effect on our nature?

No. When we are saved, and born again, we receive a new nature (2 Cor 5:17). Both our new and old nature still function. The issue in the Christian life is to which nature do we live for?

 

[com7fy8]

But won't our such union with Jesus have an effect on our nature?

No. When we are saved, and born again, we receive a new nature (2 Cor 5:17). Both our new and old nature still function. The issue in the Christian life is to which nature do we live for?

But it doesn't say we receive a new nature while we keep our old nature. It says one is a new creature. And old things are passed away. This can be taken to mean our old nature is passed away.

But . . . yes, I think a number of us are experiencing not being exactly so new.

And with how we can still fail comes the issue of how much we can fail.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Oh, so you believe that ones can believe, then live in a sinful mess until they die, then be conformed to Jesus. I have heard this, before.

You don't believe we are saved by grace then?

 

[Gr8Grace]

The only soil that was speaking of one being really saved though was the last one, where there was many times returns from it!

Our behavior after salvation will determine on how sanctified we shall become in this life, and as to what, if any, eternal rewards we may have, but nothing to do with salvation itself!

Read the soil parable again in light of your second quote.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"No. When we are saved, and born again, we receive a new nature (2 Cor 5:17). Both our new and old nature still function. The issue in the Christian life is to which nature do we live for?"

But it doesn't say we receive a new nature while we keep our old nature.

2 Cor 5:17 is clear; in Christ we are a new creation. That means a new nature. A sinless one.

As to keeping our old nature, all you have to do is read Romans 6 and 7 for details, plus Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

The "flesh" doesn't refer to your skin, muscles and bones. It refers to your sinful nature.

It says one is a new creature. And old things are passed away. This can be taken to mean our old nature is passed away.

Tell that to Paul, or God then, because Romans 6 and 7 plus Gal 5:17 are very clear that we STILL struggle with sin. From our sinful nature, the one we were born with.

 

[com7fy8]

Oh, so you believe that ones can believe, then live in a sinful mess until they die, then be conformed to Jesus. I have heard this, before.

You don't believe we are saved by grace then?

The Bible is clear that we are saved by grace.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

So, I have no wiggle room about this. We have been saved by grace through faith. And this is God's gift, not of our own selves.

Now . . . another thing ones might claim is that God loves us unconditionally and He does not see us and our sins, but He only sees Jesus now that we are children of God. It seems there are people who claim this.

And ones say grace is "God's favor".

But, in the next verse, what do we have?

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

So, I see that there is "workmanship" included in this grace . . . not only favor from outside of us, but how God works in us so we are "created in Christ Jesus". And in Christ Jesus we are living and loving like Jesus. Plus, it says there are works which God "prepared beforehand", which I understand can mean He even knows what works, "beforehand", He will have us doing after His grace has worked in us to create us in Jesus.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, grace is favor plus God's action almighty in us. And, by the way, would you consider that the "favor" is mainly for God's own Son Jesus and how God is able to change us to be like Jesus, or is this "favor" mainly for making things go our way and overlooking our sins and mainly that I go to Heaven being my main interest?

I consider that grace is all-loving; so what grace does with me is for the good of all, not only for me myself and I. So, it is not only or mainly about me getting forgiven and to Heaven.

Note how the obedience of Abraham has gotten "all the nations of the earth" "blessed" > Genesis 22:18. With obeying God comes His all-loving benefits, not only for one's own self.

So, such is the grace which I believe Paul is talking about . . . not what would have God just letting people by to keep on sinning until they die. This is not favoring them, by the way.

Because we are guaranteed how our Heavenly Father loves us and therefore He corrects us > Hebrews 12:4-14 < this loving correction is included in how He favors us!!!

Correction is not only punishing or resisting us, but correction changes our nature so we are more and more how Jesus is and sharing sensitively and personally (James 4:7, 1 Peter 3:4) with our Father in His love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5). And with this we also are caringly sharing as family with one another > Ephesians 4:31-32. Grace in us changes us into this, favoring how we can live and love and Jesus' family.

God's redeeming action creating excellence

We see in Titus how the Holy Spirit by grace has renewed us by the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5). Grace, then, does not leave us in the nature which we had in sin. And in our new character shared with Jesus (1 Corinthians 6:17) it is our new nature to more and more maturely submit to how God rules each of us in His peace (Colossians 3:15), guarding us in this almighty peace (Philippians 4:7) while coordinating us with one another and all God knows and is committed to doing with us.

This is what favor is, I now understand. So, yes indeed we are saved by grace, and this grace does not stop when a person first trusts in Christ.

Oh yes, and we have Acts 26:18 in which Jesus is telling Paul that Paul would turn Gentiles "from the power of Satan to God". So, when a person is saved the person is turned from Satan's power of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:12); and after being turned to God, the person is not totally controlled by how Satan's selfish spirit has had the person living in sin. The person has been turned to God, by the almighty power of grace changing the person's nature to no longer be so available to Satanic drives and feelings and thinking, and the person begins in being ruled "in one body" (Colossians 3:15) in God's own peace.

And is this reasonable? Would you let your child have total freedom of his or her free will so he or she can go out in the back swamp where there are disease spreading mosquitoes and the child would be eaten alive and drop and drown in weakness in the muck and water of the swamp? And would you let your child run to the edge of a cliff after you said not to, for the sake of the child having freedom of his or her own will?

I hope not. And likewise, our Father keeps us, by His grace which not only controls us but changes our nature to how His love is > 1 John 4:17 < or else we would be love-dead and puppets of selfish drives. He does not make us robots but alive in love (Ephesians 2:1) . . . by His grace favoring this and which does this with almighty power.

 

[com7fy8]

The "flesh" doesn't refer to your skin, muscles and bones. It refers to your sinful nature.

I have no question about this . . . a very good distinction.

But do you think Paul's struggle kept on being just as much, or did grace change him to become more and more functional in Jesus while the old got weaker and weaker?

Also, I think that the trouble we can have can be not necessarily us giving in, but simply Satan's evil spirit attacking but not getting the better of us . . . more and more as we grow in the strength of Jesus.

For example, the Bible says to do everything "without" "disputing". I think this means do not argue. So, at first as a younger Christian I might easily give in to arguing because I am not mature and strong in how Jesus love has me relating gently and humbly and with self control and wisdom. But as I mature I have more depth and strength and wisdom of love, so I can stay out of arguing or be the first to stop in the middle of an argument. But still an evil spirit might keep trying to zap me with insecurity so I try to get in the last word and put the other person down. But it hits me but can not get me committed. I might feel the attack, but gladly receive how God makes it flee.

But in my case, still I can give in for a while. But it seems more and more that I can readily say no, right away.

So, do you think Paul's struggling got to be less and less, though he did have issues?

I think 2 Corinthians 12:7-15 means that at first the thorn "messenger of Satan" could get through to Paul, but after Paul got more into grace he more easily was kept from being effected by Satanic stuff, and he even, in grace, took "pleasure" in troubles. So, as he grew and became more sensitive and sensible, he more readily succeeded against attacks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The "flesh" doesn't refer to your skin, muscles and bones. It refers to your sinful nature."

I have no question about this . . . a very good distinction.

Right.

But do you think Paul's struggle kept on being just as much, or did grace change him to become more and more functional in Jesus while the old got weaker and weaker?

What is clear in Paul's writing about this is that this struggle never goes away. Notice that Paul wrote in the present tense in Romans 7. And Gal 5:17 doesn't give us any suggestion that this struggle will automatically (or as you say 'by grace') will lessen.

In fact, Paul instructs believers on HOW to sin less; by being filled with the Spirit. Gal 5:16. When we walk by (be filled with) the Spirit, we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That's pretty clear and simple.

Your question about "change changing" anyone, I think you misunderstand. Grace doesn't change anyone. Grace is what God gives, whether eternal life/salvation, per Eph 2:8, or the indwelling Holy Spirit, per Acts 10:45 - The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

Also, I think that the trouble we can have can be not necessarily us giving in, but simply Satan's evil spirit attacking but not getting the better of us . . . more and more as we grow in the strength of Jesus.

The key, as always, is whether we grow or not. It's not automatic.

For example, the Bible says to do everything "without" "disputing". I think this means do not argue.

I think consulting a lexicon will help you understand the original language.

From biblehub.com the translation of the word for "disputing" includes: dissension, doubting, reasoning. When 2 people discuss something, and one knows the truth, and the other does not know or believe the truth, then an argument will ensue. The Bible doesn't forbid arguing against false ideas.

So, at first as a younger Christian I might easily give in to arguing because I am not mature and strong in how Jesus love has me relating gently and humbly and with self control and wisdom. But as I mature I have more depth and strength and wisdom of love, so I can stay out of arguing or be the first to stop in the middle of an argument. But still an evil spirit might keep trying to zap me with insecurity so I try to get in the last word and put the other person down. But it hits me but can not get me committed. I might feel the attack, but gladly receive how God makes it flee.

My goal is to defend the truth. When in discussion with someone who doesn't have the truth, I have no problem with presenting the truth, which will lead to an argument, obviously.

So, do you think Paul's struggling got to be less and less, though he did have issues?

Not according to the present tense in Romans 7.

I think 2 Corinthians 12:7-15 means that at first the thorn "messenger of Satan" could get through to Paul, but after Paul got more into grace he more easily was kept from being effected by Satanic stuff, and he even, in grace, took "pleasure" in troubles. So, as he grew and became more sensitive and sensible, he more readily succeeded against attacks.

The Bible indicates that as a believer "grows in grace" and "grows up in respect to their salvation", all of which is about spiritual growth to maturity, they will sin less, but not that they will become sinless.

Until we leave our physical bodies at death, our sinful nature will struggle against the Spirit (Gal 5:17).

 

[Gr8Grace]

The Bible is clear that we are saved by grace.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
So, I have no wiggle room about this. We have been saved by grace through faith. And this is God's gift, not of our own selves.

That settles it then. We are saved by grace and the Lord Jesus Christ said Himself, that we have eternal life and will never perish.

There is no 'extreme scenario' that will negate this fact.

Until believers realize this FACT...........fellowship,works,fruit,his discipline,doctrine and all advanced thinking from His mind will not be understood by us.

Equal opportunity, equal privilege for salvation.John 3:16, Acts 16:31.

Whoever believes, He gives eternal life and the promise to never perish. John 10:28

Saved. Period. Sealed for the day of redemption.

Equal opportunity,equal privilege to advance as believers/saved individuals.........And we WILL NOT advance if we don't believe in our forever,done deal salvation. Works and faith will forever co-mingle with His Grace and our salvation.