The periphrastic perfect.

[Gr8Grace]

Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;(Eph 2:4 uses the same construct)

In the original Greek, "you have been saved" is a of a periphrastic construct. It uses two verbal words to describe the concept of salvation.

The two verbal forms are:
1. ἐστε
este....Present tense. You are saved.

2.σεσῳσμένοι
sesōsmenoi.....Perfect tense. You have been saved, are saved and will be saved. The results are consistent, enduring and will ALWAYS continue.
The periphrasis construct put's added emphasis on Paul's statement.

And the bible clearly lay's this concept out.
1 Thess 5:23~~Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are saved..... Born-again human spirit.
John 4:24~~“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

We are being saved...... Our soul, which is fed and nourished by His word.(Are we positive to His word or are we not?This is why we see babes,sophomores or mature believers)

James 1:21~~Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.


We WILL be saved....... We WILL receive a glorified body.
Rom 8:23~~New American Standard Bible
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

The periphrastic perfect of 'Have been saved."

We are saved. We are being saved. We will be saved. And it is a forever condition that will NOT be changed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Unless that's a mis-translation. An error. Very serious error. i.e. wrong.
"Were saved" or "Have been saved",
- completely saved in past time ,
in a salvation that persists through present time ,
and this salvation is not from you a a source; of God it is the gift, not from a source of works, in order that no one might boast ;

from The New Testament , an Expanded Translation (expanded from the Greek),
by Kenneth S. Wuest ....
------------------------------------------------------------------
Think of
The persistent salvation remembering or revealing a daily salvation, every day, from the world, and from sin, and from the devil,

like on a safari - remaining with the guide, safety from the close-by dangers ....

But leave the guide, safety gone. Loss of life imminent .... having left the safety of the guide,

like choosing to walk in darkness, in the lusts of the flesh and the world, instead of remaining in the Light, after "tasting" of the heavenlies.... returning to the carnal flesh ...

Formerly, for a time, "persistent" salvation was daily, joyful, fruitful, walking in union with Jesus , in the Light....
Currently in a persistent state of salvation, in the Light.... by walking with Jesus, doing as He says, listening to His Voice following Him....

But if turning away from Him, if listening to another, instead of continuing to listen to the Shepherd, listening to men, or to demons, or to the lure of money, fame, fellow man, instead of to God, instead of loving God more than the love of men....

Free will to choose, might never be taken away from believers on the path of salvation.

They may be able to choose to leave the path - completely unwise, and dangerous,
they might think it is impossible,
they might think it is only for a little while... just a day , or year, or ten....

and never get back.

Failing to endure to the end.

 

[Radagast]

Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;(Eph 2:4 uses the same construct)

In the original Greek, "you have been saved" is a of a periphrastic construct. It uses two verbal words to describe the concept of salvation.

It doesn't mean that. You can't pick apart a periphrastic construct like that.

The periphrastic perfect means the same as an ordinary Greek perfect -- a present state that is the result of a past event.

In this case it's a passive periphrastic perfect -- God saved us in the past, and we are saved now as a result.

In terms of implications, that's not wildly different from what you said, of course.

 

[SkyWriting]

Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;(Eph 2:4 uses the same construct)

In the original Greek, "you have been saved" is a of a periphrastic construct. It uses two verbal words to describe the concept of salvation.

The two verbal forms are:
1. ἐστε
este....Present tense. You are saved.

2.σεσῳσμένοι
sesōsmenoi.....Perfect tense. You have been saved, are saved and will be saved. The results are consistent, enduring and will ALWAYS continue.
The periphrasis construct put's added emphasis on Paul's statement.

And the bible clearly lay's this concept out.
1 Thess 5:23~~Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are saved..... Born-again human spirit.
John 4:24~~“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

We are being saved...... Our soul, which is fed and nourished by His word.(Are we positive to His word or are we not?This is why we see babes,sophomores or mature believers)

James 1:21~~Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.


We WILL be saved....... We WILL receive a glorified body.
Rom 8:23~~New American Standard Bible
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

The periphrastic perfect of 'Have been saved."

We are saved. We are being saved. We will be saved. And it is a forever condition that will NOT be changed.

As long as you continue to believe it, then correct.
But I've found two groups that ignore that: legalists and those who abandon their salvation.

 

[com7fy8]

But I've found two groups that ignore that: legalists and those who abandon their salvation.

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

Correction will change a person's character so he or she will not have the nature to leave salvation. I mean how our Heavenly Father corrects us, presented in Hebrews 12:4-17.

If you still have your self's free will that was in sin . . . have you denied yourself? > Luke 9:23-24 With that free will, are we safe?? Doesn't "saved" mean safe???

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

What if they are so deceived, God has given them up to believe their own delusions?
They no longer are chastened at all. When they were, if ever, they claimed it wasn't God warning them -no, they claim it was the enemy ? Like so many today present and out in the real world who approve of perversion, greed, adultery, and idolatry ?

 

[SkyWriting]

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

Correction will change a person's character so he or she will not have the nature to leave salvation. I mean how our Heavenly Father corrects us, presented in Hebrews 12:4-17.

If you still have your self's free will that was in sin . . . have you denied yourself? > Luke 9:23-24 With that free will, are we safe?? Doesn't "saved" mean safe???

Not the same as a legalist, but interesting.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Not the same as a legalist, but interesting.

God's Judgment is Life and Death,
His Judgment is Perfect, and there's no iniquity in Him;
no iniquity at all permitted in Heaven in the life to come.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Unless that's a mis-translation. An error. Very serious error. i.e. wrong.

Now that you've introduced this suggestion, rather than just let it float, can you prove that it is a "mistranslation"?

And, if it proves to be the actual construct, then all you've posted following is irrelevant because the basis was wrong.

Think of
The persistent salvation remembering or revealing a daily salvation, every day, from the world, and from sin, and from the devil,

In Phil 2:12 Paul wrote "work out your salvation". Was he telling us that we need to work for our salvation? Of course not. He was speaking of the present tense concept of salvation; our sanctification, or spiritual growth.

The ONLY WAY to be delivered (saved) from the presence of sin during our life on earth is by growing spiritually.

like on a safari - remaining with the guide, safety from the close-by dangers ....

But we're not on a safari.

But leave the guide, safety gone. Loss of life imminent .... having left the safety of the guide,

Your suggestion that someone can "leave the safari" as being comparable to leaving our salvation is unsubstantiated in Scripture.

Where do you get your analogies? What verse supports your idea?

like choosing to walk in darkness, in the lusts of the flesh and the world, instead of remaining in the Light, after "tasting" of the heavenlies.... returning to the carnal flesh ...

These are the things that keep the believer from growing spiritually, and what they need to be delivered (saved) from.

Formerly, for a time, "persistent" salvation was daily, joyful, fruitful, walking in union with Jesus , in the Light....
Currently in a persistent state of salvation, in the Light.... by walking with Jesus, doing as He says, listening to His Voice following Him....

This is spiritual growth, where the believer is delivered (saved) from the presence of sin.

But if turning away from Him, if listening to another, instead of continuing to listen to the Shepherd, listening to men, or to demons, or to the lure of money, fame, fellow man, instead of to God, instead of loving God more than the love of men....

Free will to choose, might never be taken away from believers on the path of salvation.

The "path to salvation" ends at the GATE, from John 10:9. Those who believe in Christ (enter through the gate) ARE SAVED. Jesus said so.

Are you going to argue with Jesus?

They may be able to choose to leave the path - completely unwise, and dangerous,
they might think it is impossible,
they might think it is only for a little while... just a day , or year, or ten....

and never get back.

Leaving the path is irrelevant, since there is no path. Once faith in Christ, one is saved.
John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

Failing to endure to the end.

Please provide any verse that outright tells us that those who fail to endure to the end won't be saved.

Instead, I will provide a verse that tells us outright that those who don't endure won't "reign with Christ", which is a reward for faithfulness. 2 Tim 2:12

 

[FreeGrace2]

As long as you continue to believe it, then correct.
But I've found two groups that ignore that: legalists and those who abandon their salvation.

Please share any verse that indicates in clear, plain words that any group can lose their salvation.

 

[Gr8Grace]

It doesn't mean that.

Yes it does. And let me prove it to you. I will say it again and not only bold it....I will underline it.

Yes it does.

You can't pick apart a periphrastic construct like that.

Who is picking the periphrastic construct apart? It is the periphrastic construct of the specific phrase in Eph 2:8 that is being discussed.

The periphrastic perfect means the same as an ordinary Greek perfect -- a present state that is the result of a past event.

Ok. Then why use the periphrastic construct if Paul could have just used ONE verb to get his point across?

In this case it's a passive periphrastic perfect -- God saved us in the past, and we are saved now as a result.

This is not in question. Maybe read the OP a little closer.

The periphrastic perfect in this specific verse and phrase ALSO conveys that 'Have been saved' is enduring,forever,complete........if you read "have been saved" today, in the present, it is true. When you read "have been saved" 3000 days from now..........it remains true.

In terms of implications, that's not wildly different from what you said, of course.

True. But it seems to me you don't fully understand the periphrastic perfect in this specific verse.

 

[com7fy8]

In this case it's a passive periphrastic perfect -- God saved us in the past, and we are saved now as a result.

Ok . . . I surrender, right away, about knowing anything about Greek tenses. And my opinion is that any human can tend to interpret scripture according to one's real character, not necessarily according to what is really true . . . no matter how much the person thinks and claims he or she knows Bible Greek. If a person can cherry pick the Bible in one's own language, I mean, then also the person could be somehow cherry picking how to understand Greek. And we can find birds of our own feather to support however we understand the Bible or the Greek manuscripts. So, I depend on God, as well as He blesses me to.

So, I'm offering from my overall scripture acquaintance and experience of how I find God has communicated with me, in various ways.

I do agree with your statement that if a person has been rescued from sin and reconciled with God, now the person is saved on an ongoing basis.

As long as you continue to believe it, then correct.
But I've found two groups that ignore that: legalists and those who abandon their salvation.

understood

Going by the epistle of John, I understand that ones so departed were not in the number, in the first place. But I understand ones can give a point of view to challenge this idea, and I won't be surprised if you do.

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

And by this, included, I mean that if someone really has trusted in Jesus, the person is changed and correction begins to make sure the person does not turn back. I mean - - - in Hebrews 12:4-11, it appears to me this word is saying that God's correction changes the person's nature, and this nature can not reverse against God to the extent that the person totally departs from God.

Because, when God changes a person's nature when someone trusts in Jesus, the person has a new nature which is operating in the person's will.

And it is written >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

If we become "one" in spirit with Jesus, how Jesus is will win out over how we are, in this union. Because Jesus in union with us is almighty to succeed . . . by His grace changing us. And then we grow in this.

What if they are so deceived, God has given them up to believe their own delusions?

I think we have shared about this, before; and I recognize that you are thoroughly convinced that a saved person can lose salvation. And you have plenty of scripture to make it challenging for anyone to disagree with you.

But, in any case, if someone is so deceived that God gives the person up to their delusions > my opinion is the person did not get truly changed in trusting in Jesus. There are copy-cat salvation experiences, and emotionally pressed changes in which a person feels less pressure and so this is confused with peace.

But our Apostle Paul does speak of "we who first trusted in Christ", in Ephesians 1:12.

I think if we trust in Jesus this includes how we deny our selves (Luke 9:23-24) which includes our human free wills, and we give ourselves to Jesus in order to be made safe from falling away, and this means God changes our nature so we no longer can fall away. His love perfects us so "as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

But if I recall correctly, you Yeshua Slave Jeff have generously provided various scriptures which do warn us about what will happen if we fall or turn away. So, yes we do stand warned.

And I am sure you have something to say about this. Thank you, God bless you

 

[Gr8Grace]

As long as you continue to believe it, then correct.
But I've found two groups that ignore that: legalists and those who abandon their salvation.

Nope. And this thread would be for you and people who think like you.

If 'continuing to believe' was a condition..........the periphrastic perfect could not have been used. Salvation could not have been described as, "saved in the past, presently saved, with that salvation enduring forever."

So you bring up the point of this thread. Prove to us that the periphrastic perfect of 'have been saved' was not used. Paul could not have said this...........if there was a condition attached to 'have been saved.'

 

[Radagast]

Yes it does. And let me prove it to you. I will say it again and not only bold it....I will underline it.

Yes it does.

The periphrastic perfect means the same as the ordinary perfect. It cannot be explained by trying to attach separate meanings to the two parts. See any good book on NT grammar.

In the same way, we cannot explain the English "you have been saved" by trying to explain "have," "been," and "saved" separately.

Ok. Then why use the periphrastic construct if Paul could have just used ONE verb to get his point across?

I'll say it again: the periphrastic perfect means the same as the ordinary perfect, which would be σέσωσθε (sesōsthe) in this case. That form is never used in the New Testament. I have no idea why not (but I'm glad, because I'd find it hard to say).

 

[com7fy8]

Think of
The persistent salvation remembering or revealing a daily salvation, every day, from the world, and from sin, and from the devil,

like on a safari - remaining with the guide, safety from the close-by dangers ....

But leave the guide, safety gone. Loss of life imminent .... having left the safety of the guide,

But we're not on a safari.

Jesus is not only our Guide, but in us Jesus changes our nature so it is no longer our nature to choose to depart from Him. Jesus becomes our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19. And Jesus as our new and growing inner Person does not choose to leave God > Galatians 2:20.

But I do understand ones have reason not to accept this and you have scriptures. But I, too, have offered a few.

I think, now, of how Jesus has said that His sheep will not follow another.

Yet . . . Peter warns us that if we are overcome by someone, we are brought into bondage by whoever overcomes us. So, yes I do need to heed this warning and be prayerful about whom I trust and how I depend on anything or not.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Unless that's a mis-translation. An error. Very serious error. i.e. wrong.

Well then prove it.

"Were saved" or "Have been saved",
- completely saved in past time ,
in a salvation that persists through present time ,
and this salvation is not from you a a source; of God it is the gift, not from a source of works, in order that no one might boast ;

from The New Testament , an Expanded Translation (expanded from the Greek),
by Kenneth S. Wuest .... [/QUOTE]
No question that it's a gift of God and it's passive. He does the saving.

Why don't you tell me the difference of what was laid out in the OP and the definition you gave?

I see the EXACT same definition, Just phrased a bit different.

"completely saved in the past."<<<<< the periphrastic perfect of 'have been saved" Gives us COMPLETE confidence to say.....we have been saved, we are saved and we WILL be saved. COMPLETELY saved.

 

[Gr8Grace]

The periphrastic perfect means the same as the ordinary perfect. It cannot be explained by trying to attach separate meanings to the two parts. See any good book on NT grammar.

Again. If the periphrastic perfect means the same as the ordinary perfect......why not just use one verb and leave it at that?

See any advanced book on NT Greek.

 

[Radagast]

Again. If the periphrastic perfect means the same as the ordinary perfect......why not just use one verb and leave it at that? .

Like I said, the ordinary 2nd person plural passive perfect of that verb is never used in the NT.

That may reflect the ongoing simplification of Greek that was taking place at the time, or it may reflect the fact that many New Testament authors were thinking in Aramaic to some extent.

However, nothing can be read into the use of the periphrastic perfect here. Periphrastic perfects are common in the NT.

 

[Radagast]

See any advanced book on NT Greek.

I have done. No NT Greek book I've seen says what you claim.

Every NT Greek book I've seen says the opposite: that the ordinary perfect and the periphrastic perfect have the same meaning.

 

[Radagast]

Gives us COMPLETE confidence to say.....we have been saved, we are saved and we WILL be saved. COMPLETELY saved.

I would like that to be true, because I'm a Calvinist, but you can't infer "we will be saved" from the verb tense in this verse.