The Perfect Ashlar

Rev Wayne

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No, you sought to find as much "Christian" information as you could to justify a decision you were demonically led to believe to begin with.
Wow, Mike, this has really got me puzzled. What kind of person is it, who essentially accuses someone of being demon-possessed one day; and then only two days later, sends that same person a friend request on Facebook?

My answer would be, either a very confused individual, or a very determined individual looking for another avenue for venting the same rage he has become known for on this forum. Sorry, but after giving it some reflection, I had to turn down the request.

One thing that having dealt with you has taught me, at least, is the depth of your recalcitrant disregard and defiance of anyone's guidelines or restrictions in regard to decorum. I have seen from you absolutely no regard and no scruples for any information, whether it be of a general nature, or more personal or private, when looking for material to dump into your fodderizer to feed your cannon. Opening up a space for you as a "friend" on Facebook would be, to me, tantamount to saying, "Well, Mr. Fox, I've looked over your credentials and they're pretty impressive, so never mind all the paperwork, you're hired, here are the keys, I'll return in a month, take good care of my hens for me." I have no reservations in saying, I would not for one minute put it past you to have sent the request for that very purpose, to see what information you could find out and use for your potshots.

So not only did I turn down the request, I put a block on your name as well.

Of course, there's always the outside possibility you were sincere with the request. And believe me, I did give that due consideration. But there is just too much water under the bridge at this point. I had to consider, even as I weighed the contingent factors of responding positively, that even if you WERE sincere, and had the best of intentions, that still did not preclude the possibility of you going on one of your well-known rants, and all those good intentions go out the window, with the result being no different than it would be had you made the request with ill intent.

And there was one factor that weighed on my mind more than any other considerations. Having already undergone the experience of you taking occasion to browbeat one of my family members, opening up a format for you, potentially at least, to do the same with more of my family, was a choice I simply found unconscionable.


Oh, and by the way, you stated earlier:

Well what do we have here; yet another new revelation from you that continues to amaze us? Forbidden! So not only do you admit not trusting the Holy Spirit, you now go on record admitting to deliberately disobey your own denomination. How much more rebellion can anyone have than to be guilty of doing both?

Do they NOT even know you're a Mason? I suppose this means you want us to believe the Holy Spirit told you to not only join, but when you do, to keep it a secret from your denomination's leadership.
For the record, since your powers of recollection are not what they ought to be, there have been numerous times in past discussions where I had told you of being a member in another denomination for four years, prior to coming back to the United Methodist Church to which I had belonged all my life. In fact, you were at one time going to great lengths to try to get me to reveal which one that was. I would have thought you'd remember that, but apparently not. It was THEY, and not the church in which I hold my pastoral credentials, who had the restriction against membership in "secret societies." I never received ordination or even licensing as a minister before leaving that denomination, never served a single day in their churches as a pastor, never entered a Masonic lodge until nine years after leaving their denomination, so no, no such "disobedience" or "deliberate rebellion" as you describe, ever took place.
 
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O.F.F.

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Wayne said:
So not only did I turn down the request, I put a block on your name as well.

Hello "Rev" Wayne,

Thanks for your reply, and be advised that your personal rejection of my friendship is duly noted and accepted!

But just so you know, I use FB strictly as a means to connect with friends and family, and to plant a 'witnessing' seed from time-to-time that the Lord may use to bring someone to Christ. Never would I use that platform to antagonize anyone or discuss, argue or debate Freemasonry, politics or religion (with the exception of my O.F.F. page, regarding Masonry of course, which has not been used very much). And, if ever such conversation takes place and gets out of hand, I would immediately stop and delete any such posts from my personal wall.

But besides what I said to you when requesting the 'friendship' (having known you for so long, despite our differences of opinion regarding Freemasonry) I did it because of what one Mason said to me when I questioned his request to be a FB 'friend' of mine.

It is my sincere hope to put the past patterns of thoughtless animosity toward you and others that I "meet" on the internet and attempt to get to know them as the person they are; one with feelings, family, opinions and beliefs.

When I see a posting on a forum, by you or someone else I happen to disagree with I want to have a mental image of the person that wrote it and an understanding of what prompted it rather than just an opportunity to demonstrate my ability to "cut someone off at the knees" or "score a point" for my side.

I know we will never see eye to eye on many issues. That is not the point. But we both live on this earth together and both breathe the same air and as long as that is the case, I think we have an obligation to try to at least respect and treat each other as fellow humans.

George Steberl III

To be honest, that struck my heart in a very nice way. And, as a result, I accepted his FB friendship request; and believe it or not, we've gotten along much better ever since.

Anyway, I thought you might see it similarly; and would at least question my request there via PM, rather than come here to publicly announce your rejection of me as a friend; particularly since you had most recently said this:

Wayne said:
No matter what else takes place in any exchange here or anywhere else, I do not consider you any less than a true Christian brother of mine...

Evidently I was wrong. Obviously you weren't sincere when you said it to begin with; because if "a true Christian brother " can't also be accept by you as a friend, than who can? Only Masons who agree with you?

Therefore, if you can't accept me as a friend, I see no reason to believe you accept me as "a true Christian brother." But thanks for letting us here ALL know, just the kind of "pastor" you really are.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Thanks for your reply, and be advised that your personal rejection of my friendship is duly noted and accepted!


If it's my friendship you want, I'd be willing to explore some avenue of approaching that, if there is some other venue you'e like to suggest. But Facebook opens up the door a lot wider than I'd be comfortable with given the history of the exchanges. Maybe it's easy for you to look at things with blinders on, but the excessiveness of the pattern of insults and derogations that I've been on the receiving end from you, and not just the fact of them having occurred, are one of the key issues in the decision I felt I had to make. That, and the doors that Facebook opens. I have friends on there from all walks of life, from high school to college, to Bible College, to seminary, and every one of the churches I've served as well.
And you have to admit, after you only two days ago making derogatory remarks implying I am either demon-possessed or following satan, don't you think that's a bit too abrupt to be trusted automatically? Surely you can see that, and understand the thoughts that come to mind for anyone who has been subjected to that kind of treatment, and is then asked to consider a befriendment request that will open the door for the very same person to have access and contact with every single person I love and care for, and who love and care for me.
There's an old adage I follow, I've expressed it on these forums many times, "Trust. . . . but verify." Two days is not ample time to assess whether or not what I'm seeing is a new Mike, or the same old Mike with new-looking veneer. If you were to be honest with yourself for a moment and think about it: how many professions of the "new Mike" have I seen from you over the course of time? i don't have fingers enough to count them.


But besides what I said to you when requesting the 'friendship' (having known you for so long, despite our differences of opinion regarding Freemasonry) I did it because of what one Mason said to me when I questioned his request to be a FB 'friend' of mine.

George is a good one, and I've appreciated his friendship over the years. I wasn't surprised to see that George had made the request. But then, (1) George (to my knowledge) was never subjected to the same level of exchange that has characterized your remarks to me; and (2) George (to my knowledge) is not currently engaged in any active, ongoing discussion of Freemasonry taking place between Masons and antimasons. His situation is very different than the one that has existed between us, and the risks he faced by accepting your request were very likely to be minimal.

Anyway, I thought you might see it similarly; and would at least question my request there via PM, rather than come here to publicly announce your rejection of me as a friend;

particularly since you had most recently said this:

No matter what else takes place in any exchange here or anywhere else, I do not consider you any less than a true Christian brother of mine...

Evidently I was wrong. Obviously you weren't sincere when you said it to begin with; because if "a true Christian brother " can't also be accept by you as a friend, than who can? Only Masons who agree with you?

Ah, yes, the same old ellipsis game as always. Here is the full context of what was just snip-quoted:

No matter what else takes place in any exchange here or anywhere else, I do not consider you any less than a true Christian brother of mine, just one with which I have differences of opinion. You wish to play hardball, that's fine, I expect no less. Strange as it may sound, I consider it an application of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I expect it from any Christian that they will play hardball, and stand their ground on what they believe, just as surely as I do. But making accusations of demonism, in any case of Christian against Christian, is below the belt. Engage in that one, and you are on your own, for in any dealing with a fellow Christian, despite the usual "give 'em as good as they send," that's where I draw the line and disengage.
And the minute I spoke of drawing the line there and disengaging because I considered your actions to be "below the belt," these were the very next words you posted to me:

Don't get it twisted Masonic pastor; the recanting will come from you for referring to the demonic force that led you into the Lodge as the "Holy Spirit."
And the next:

Then, sorry my brother, but you are guilty indeed. You're guilty not only of the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but of the sin of "testing the Holy Spirit."
And your concluding remark in the same post:

In the final analysis, you were led into Freemasonry by the spirit of the Antichrist; and your own Masonic ego has you trapped in his insidious grip.

Now I ask you, and the readers as well: do these words sound like the words of a man who is interested in being my friend? I don't think so. In fact, my statement to you affirming you as a Christian brother, was an attempt to defuse the situation, and try to get you to come to reason, because as I indicated, it appeared to me you were clearly already over the line. I consider that just as much an offer of friendship, a reminder of who we are in Christ, which is supposed to be a bond of not only friendship, but brotherhood. And I took your very next response as a clear indication that YOU were rejecting the offer.

The fact that you come back here even now and play the con artist, trying to portray this as something which you can once again use to point fingers at me, is the surest confirmation that I made the correct choice.

As for this:

and would at least question my request there via PM, rather than come here to publicly announce your rejection

It wasn't that long ago you were loudly proclaiming a matter, though your accusations were false as always (and you KNEW they were) and claiming scriptural support for it, declaring that "hidden things will be revealed," even "declared from the housetops."

Either you were insincere THEN, or you are inconsistent NOW, to be trying to suggest this should have been kept under wraps. I think you are just miffed about having your little subterfuge exposed. The context of the exchange clearly reveals that I was extending the olive branch at the time in order to defuse a volatile exchange, and YOU chose to reject ME. The fact that you slice and dice it, and come back here and try to leverage it for window dressing, inidcates I was correct not to be taken in by the request.

No, despite your attempts to pretend otherwise, you have not changed a bit, for you still turn everything into cannon fodder, even this reply where you post a smiley with big crocodile tears, in the pretense of having been wrongfully snubbed.

But thanks for letting us here ALL know, just the kind of "pastor" you really are.

Oh yes, I did THAT for sure. I've let them see that in this instance, I have been a WISE one, one who protects his family, his friends, and his church members on his Facebook contact list, from potential exposure to a manipulative, abusive presence, who no doubt would have used even that venue for his continued venomous personal attacks, as well as using information garnered there to invent more attacks that would have been posted here. Your response pretty well indicates that my concerns were well-founded. As the watchman on the wall in this instance, I simply could not permit that to happen.
 
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Skip Sampson

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Hi Mike:
Until he does answer these questions, I suggest we exercise Proverbs 23:9.
Tempting, very tempting, but I know he cannot answer those questions. They are beyond his limits. I hate to just cut him loose as responding to his views allows me to delve further into the history and foundations of freemasonry. But we may be at that point. Let me ponder further, so to speak. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Skip Sampson

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Where's you support?
It rests upon the differing views of just who Christ is. Neither the Mormon nor Witness view is Biblical.


That's already been shown.
Notice my original statement:
Given Masonry's penchant for perverting Biblical lessons, it is up to them to flesh out the 'Christian Dispensation' to show it's the Biblical one, and not just something of their own creation.
When I use the general word Masonry, I do not mean you. Let the GL's explain their usage.


My statement was about what you find in the ritual, not what you see on the altar.
The ritual is affected by the VSL on the altar.


Where's your support for this thing you claim you "know?"
This was a post on a Masonic forum addressing the matter, but has not been confirmed by another source:
I got a request for the scripture readings from the Holy Qu"Ran, which are recommended by the Grand Lodge of Indiana. When a Muslim takes the Craft Degrees, these are the Surahs (Verses) from the Holy Qu'ran, which are read aloud: ...
For the Entered Apprentice: Surah 3:103
For the Fellow Craft: Surah 2:255
For the Master Mason: Surah 85:12-16
To add to this, when a VSL other than the Bible is used, it's name (or the phrase VSL) is used in ritual as the rule & guide.

And exactly what GL's would that be, since Freemasonry is outlawed in Muslim countries?
California would be one:
CALIFORNIA - §402.060. ALTERNATE HOLY WRITINGS.
A candidate for a degree in Masonry may select an alternate Holy Writings on which he will be obligated, but only under the following circumstances: A. If the candidate does not wish to be obligated on the Holy Bible, he must select an alternate Holy Writings in book form from a list promulgated from time to time by the Grand Master of the Holy Writings of those recognized religions whose theology is not inconsistent with a belief in a Supreme Being and a future existence. The Grand Master’s list shall at all times include the al-Kitab al-Aqdas of Bahaism, the Tripitaka of Buddhism, the Analects of Confucianism, the Vedas of Hinduism, the Koran of Islam, the Tanach of Judaism, the Koji-ki of Shintoism, the Adi Granth of Sikhism, the Tao-te Ching of Taoism and the Zend Avesta of Zoroastrianism. In selecting an alternate Holy Writings, the candidate must state that the book chosen is the Holy Writings of his religious faith;
So let's deal with the rest of it, and show what your errors are.
Let's not, since your going in assumption is wrong. Besides, your views get no better by repetition.



The image He sought to portray to them was made all the more emphatic by the fact that he wasn't just told to consort with, but to actually MARRY a prostitute
As I noted: marrying a prostitue was ok with God. Thanks.



But the Masonic symbol signifies only THE Messiah. The statement about other religions having other names, is simply one of declared neutrality.
Untrue. The MI GL statement is clear that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is a symbol for the messiah, and that the messiah is known by different names in different religions. Thus, the Masonic view is that Jesus is not the only messiah, nor is he the only person claimed to be the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.


You keep trying to make it out to be a "definition."
Asked and answered.


In Michigan, the Messiah is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, which by their ritual is shown by a series of incontrovertible statements, to be Jesus Christ.
Untrue. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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But I still stand on all my previous posts.
Which of course, was the reason for the decision. All your previous posts show why the last couple of posts from you were not to be taken at face value.

But the offer still stands, if you are serious about an offer of friendship, to find another avenue than the one you selected.
 
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Rev Wayne

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This was a post on a Masonic forum addressing the matter, but has not been confirmed by another source:

In other words, unsupported. Ask for support for your claim, and your best move is not only unsupported, but is not actually a written Masonic source, but a forum???

Just shows your duplicity. If I presented this, you and Mike would be doubling over with laughter and posting all the huge gag smileys you could find.

But don't worry, I won't do that, I'll just let a suppressed smirk out once in awhile.

It rests upon the differing views of just who Christ is. Neither the Mormon nor Witness view is Biblical.

No support AGAIN? Then I repeat: You seem to be awfully good at claiming things, but not so good at supporting them. And once again, where's your support for the claim?

When I use the general word Masonry, I do not mean you. Let the GL's explain their usage.

When necessary, sure. In this case it is not. It is identical to the three-dispensation model in the Christian Dispensational system.

The ritual is affected by the VSL on the altar.

Wrong--only the part associated directly with the taking of the obligation would be affected. The "rule and guide" portion is not part of the obligation and would remain exactly as it already appears, since it applies to Masonry in the jurisdiction and not to the candidate or the book on which he chooses to obligate.

If you think differently, let's see your support for it--in some statement in Michigan, of course, which is what we were talking about.

To add to this, when a VSL other than the Bible is used, it's name (or the phrase VSL) is used in ritual as the rule & guide.

Sorry, but the "rule and guide" section of the ritual is not part of the obigation. Jurisdictions differ on some points in regard to what is done, but not one of them changes the earlier portions of the ritual, the only part that would change even in the least, would be in the taking of the obligation itself, since that is the only place where that book would even be used at all. Some jurisdictions declare that the VSL chosen for the obligation would not be present on the altar until the obligation is taken, others state that it will be present throughout the degree being taken. But they are consistent in stipulating that the Bible is not replaced, but remains, and remains in the center of the altar, and remains open. But what you claim, I have not seen stated by any U.S. Grand Lodge. I have to presume you haven't either, for you to lower your standards to the point you'd cite (heh!) a Masonic discussion forum.

And I saw nothing in what you DID cite, to support your claim about the rule and guide. For one thing, the general practice is, to keep the Holy Bible in its central position on the altar, and place any alternate chosen for the individual's obligation to the side. Also, the portions of the ritual declaring the "rule and guide" would not be changed, because it appears elsewhere than the obligation. The only statements about the "VSL" that would change would be any comments that were contained in the obligation itself, because the only place in the ritual where THAT VSL would have any place in anything that happens, would be when the individual takes the obligation.

Besides, your views get no better by repetition.

I'd say that's a dang sight better than yours are faring, they get worse every post.

As I noted: marrying a prostitue was ok with God.

Was. In the one instance of the command given to Hosea. Duly noted. Also duly noted, is what I already stated on that point, that you can't point to the dire situation that existed at the time, or to the bizarre actions of several prophets at the time, as scriptural norms--which is what you've been trying, though unsuccessfully, to manage.

The MI GL statement is clear that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is a symbol for the messiah, and that the messiah is known by different names in different religions.

Sorry, that's the MSA statement, as indicated by their insignia on the page. Michigan's position is in the ritual, and supersedes any other source, even statements from other sources which actually ARE Michigan GL statements, and even ones which actually ARE Michigan Masonic Education documents. What you cited from MSA was neither.

Thus, the Masonic view is that Jesus is not the only messiah, nor is he the only person claimed to be the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

There has been ample material of all sorts, GL sources included, that make this claim a flat-out lie on your part by now. The general Masonic understanding has been shown to be, Jesus Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. It's about time you dropped the adolescent posturing and man up and accept the evidence that refutes you.

Asked and answered.

Sure was. The MSA statement is not a definition. They said there are options, and left it there, without defining it by any of them. That definition is left up to the individual jurisdictions, and they certainly do take a stand on one in particular, as already shown.


Unsupported. 13 sources with false claims. Zero sources as a result. No attempt to offer support to the contrary to show any different--a tacit admission you either have none, or you KNOW the claims are false, and therefore know it would be a waste of time to try.
 
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Skip Sampson

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In other words, unsupported.
As I noted. It was the statement by a Mason in that jurisdiction. I'll see if I can find GL support for it.


And once again, where's your support for the claim?
Check their websites. I am surprised you do not know about their views, but I should know by now not that one can't underestimate your level of knowledge.


Wrong--only the part associated directly with the taking of the obligation would be affected.
I think I already said that. Since the obligation is part of the ritual, the ritual is affected by the VSL used. As to rule and guide, it is my contention that the section of the ritual in which this is discussed does not use the "Holy Bible" when another VSL is used.


Sorry, that's the MSA statement, as indicated by their insignia on the page.
Untrue.


The general Masonic understanding has been shown to be, Jesus Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.
Most definitely untrue. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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As I noted. It was the statement by a Mason in that jurisdiction.

As I didn't note, but do now, that's so far beneath the demands you put upon anything cited by anyone else, that it's a joke in itself to even see you present it here.

And once again, where's your support for the claim?
Check their websites.

You made the claim, you check their websites and support your claim, otherwise either don't make it, or be prepared to be called on it when you refuse to do so. Nothing wrong with abiding by the same demands you insist upon when others post, now is there? It's called consistency, might be refreshing to see you show a smidgin of it now and then.

I think I already said that.
No, actually, you did not. You said the ritual would change, not the obligation.

Since the obligation is part of the ritual, the ritual is affected by the VSL used.
The obligation is not the ritual, it is a distinct sub-segment of it. Since it is the only part that would be affected, it is more accurate to say, that the obligation would be changed. That way you don't imply more than you can back up, which you clearly were doing.

As to rule and guide, it is my contention that the section of the ritual in which this is discussed does not use the "Holy Bible" when another VSL is used.

And from what I've read on the matter from jurisdictional statements on the matter, your claim would not be true. In fact, in the Code of our jurisdiction, there is no provision for the wording to be changed at all.


Sorry, but it's true. The statement on the page states:

Courtesy of: The Masonic Service Association of North America.

Their insignia also appears on the page, it is there to signify the material is by authority of the Masonic Service Association of North America, not the Michigan Grand Lodge. If it were otherwise, and "became MI GL's possession simply by appearing there, as you claim, there would BE no attribution. Moreover, if you think the symbol is just there for no reason, guess again. Click on it and see where it takes you. The page is an MSA page that appears on the Michigan site as a courtesy extended by the MSA, not as an official Michigan Grand Lodge page, despite its appearing on their site.
And either way, it most certainly is not part of Michigan's Masonic Education materials anyway.

The general Masonic understanding has been shown to be, Jesus Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

You are in extreme denial of that fact, which has been incontrovertibly shown with the citations provided showing direct statements of that fact.
 
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Skip Sampson

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Sounds like you've been giving that spray bottle quite a workout.
You made the claim, you check their websites and support your claim,
Did that long ago. You've left yourself with three courses of action: 1) you agree that LDS and JW define 'Christ' differently; 2) You disagree that they do so; 3) You don't care one way or the other. I'll assume point 2 is your conclusion.

No, actually, you did not. You said the ritual would change, not the obligation. The obligation is not the ritual, it is a distinct sub-segment of it.
So, a part of the ritual is not part of the ritual, and the obligation is also not part of the ritual. Funny, how the obligation appears in every GL ritual I own as part of the ritual. You really don't know much about Freemasonry; are you sure you really are one or has all this been just a put on? If so, it would explain a lot of things.

The statement on the page states:
And the data comes back from a Search function on the MI GL website and appears on a MI GL website page, clearly marked as such.

And either way, it most certainly is not part of Michigan's Masonic Education materials anyway.
Still untrue.

The general Masonic understanding has been shown to be, Jesus Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.
Ditto. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Did that long ago.

No you didn't. All you did was make Sampsonian claims, unsupported. Where's the evidence you claim?

You've left yourself with three courses of action:

Nope. I've left YOU with ONE: put up or shut up.

I'll assume point 2 is your conclusion.

You assume all sorts of things (see list), and always incorrectly.

a part of the ritual is not part of the ritual

Wow, your brilliance is too much.

Funny, how the obligation appears in every GL ritual I own as part of the ritual.

Funny how only the obligation changes, not any other part of the ritual.

And the data comes back from a Search function on the MI GL website and appears on a MI GL website page, clearly marked as such.
Yep, by courtesy of the MSA, and bearing their official insignia, which links right straight to their site from which it derives--and all of it clearly marked as such.

Still untrue

Still a false claim. You've been trying to claim it as "Masonic Education" material, and you have not presented a shred of evidence to support it.

The general Masonic understanding has been shown to be, Jesus Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.
Ditto.
Interesting.

Ditto:

1. Used in accounts and lists to indicate that an item is repeated (often indicated by ditto marks under the word or figure to be repeated).
2. Used to indicate that something already said is applicable a second time. (Merriam-Webster)
By "ditto" you just stated "The general Masonic understanding has been shown to be, Jesus Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah."

Finally, agreement. Never thought you'd come to your senses to recognize that fact.
 
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Skip Sampson

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No you didn't.
How would you know? BTW, refer to post #49 on the For critics... thread for a relevant discussion. While at it, post #94, same thread, addresses the Biblical view of marriage.

Funny how only the obligation changes, not any other part of the ritual.
Thanks for confirming that the obligation is a part of the ritual, plus the further admission that the ritual does indeed change.


You've been trying to claim it as "Masonic Education" material, and you have not presented a shred of evidence to support it.
Both untrue. I've referred to it as MI GL training material, in that it's on their website and it defines common Masonic terms and phrases as used within the MI GL.


By "ditto" you just stated "The general Masonic understanding has been shown to be, Jesus Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah."
Nope, the "ditto" refers back to my preceding statement. Sorry you arrived at a mistaken conclusion. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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How would you know? BTW, refer to post #49 on the For critics... thread for a relevant discussion. While at it, post #94, same thread, addresses the Biblical view of marriage.

So it wasn't in the context of this thread? Meaning, you DIDN'T post it here, which was what you were implying? And now you refuse to post it here or address it in this context? Guess making your point wasn't that important to you after all.

Thanks for confirming that the obligation is a part of the ritual, plus the further admission that the ritual does indeed change.

Sure, as long as you recognize only the obligation changes.

I've referred to it as MI GL training material,


And you did so falsely, for you have not shown it to be so.

in that it's on their website

Whoop-ti-doo. It's on Michigan GL website with a huge MSA insignia to identify it as MSA material.

and it defines common Masonic terms and phrases as used within the MI GL.

False. It defines Masonic terms and phrases generically, which does not show them "as used" ANYWHERE, and leaves the interpretation open.

Michigan's ritual is distinctively different, giving it the Christian interpretation, and doing so in a series of unmistakable attributions.

Nope, the "ditto" refers back to my preceding statement. Sorry you arrived at a mistaken conclusion.

The mistake was yours, in putting the ditto in the wrong place. I reached the conclusion to which your error led:

ditto: used to avoid repeating or to confirm agreement with an immediately preceding sentence (Collins English Dictionary)

The "immediately preceding" sentence was one I cited, not you. In the construction you used, your "ditto" indicated agreement with what I had just stated, because the ditto immediately followed it.

Now, perhaps you may have intended what you just stated, but that is not what was indicated by the construction you used.

Do it right next time, and maybe you can say what you're saying, without making such misleading mistakes.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Interesting excerpt from a Masonic magazine piece by Mackey that had not yet posted:

The corner-stone of an edifice must be perfectly square on its surfaces, lest, by a violation of this true geometric figure, the walls to be erected upon it should deviate from the required line of perpendicularity, which can alone give strength and proportion to the building.
Perfectly square on its surfaces, it is, in its form and solid contents, a cube. Now, the square and the cube are both important and significant symbols.
The square is an emblem of morality, or the strict performance of every duty. Among the Greeks, who were a highly poetical and imaginative people, the square was deemed a figure of perfection, and the aner tetragonos, "the square or cubical man," as the words may be translated, was a term used to designate a man of unsullied integrity. Hence, one of their most eminent metaphysicians* has said that " he who valiantly sustains the shocks of adverse fortune, demeaning himself uprightly, is truly good and of a square posture, without reproof; and he who would assume such a square posture, should often subject himself to the perfectly square test of justice and integrity
The cube, in the language of symbolism, denotes truth. Among the Pagan mythologists, Mercury or Hermes was always represented by a cubical stone, because he was the type of truth, and the same form was adopted by the Israelites in the construction of the tabernacle, which was to be the dwelling-place of divine truth.
And, then, as to its material: This, too, is an essential element of all symbolism. Constructed of a material finer and more polished than that which constitutes the remainder of the edifice, often carved with appropriate devices and fitted for its distinguished purpose by the utmost skill of the sculptor's art, it becomes the symbol of that beauty of holiness with which the Hebrew Psalmist has said that we are to worship Jehovah.
The ceremony, then, of the north-east corner of the lodge, since it derives all its typical value from this symbolism of the cornerstone, was undoubtedly intended to portray, in this consecrated language, the necessity of integrity and stability of conduct, of truthfulness and uprightness of character, and of purity and holiness of life, which, just at that time and in that place, the candidate is most impressively charged to maintain.
But there is also a symbolism about the position of the cornerstone which is well worthy of attention. It is familiar to every one—even to those who are without the pale of initiation—that the custom of laying the corner-stones of public buildings has always been performed by the Masonic order with peculiar and impressive ceremonies, and that this stone is invariably deposited in the northeast corner of the foundation of the intended structure. Now, the question naturally suggests itself, whence does this ancient and invariable usage derive its origin? Why may not the stone be deposited in any other corner or portion of the edifice, as convenience or necessity may dictate? The custom of placing the foundation stone in the north-east corner must have been originally adopted for some good and sufficient reason; for we have a right to suppose that it was not an arbitrary selection. Was it in reference to the ceremony which takes place in the lodge? Or is that in reference to the position of the material stone? No matter which has the precedence in point of time, the principle is the same. The position of the stone in the north-east corner of the building is altogether symbolic, and the symbolism exclusively alludes to certain doctrines which are taught in the speculative science of Masonry.
The interpretation, I conceive, is briefly this: Every speculative mason is familiar with the fact that the east, as the source of material light, is a symbol of his own order, which professes to contain within its bosom the pure light of truth. As in the physical world, the morning of each day is ushered into existence by the reddening dawn of the eastern sky, whence the rising sun dispenses his illuminating and prolific rays to every portion of the visible horizon, warming the whole earth with his embrace of light, and giving newborn life and energy to flower and tree, and beast and man, who, at the magic touch, awaken from the sleep of darkness; so in the moral world, when intellectual night was, in the earliest days, brooding over the world, it was from the ancient priesthood living in the east that those lessons of God, of nature, and of humanity first emanated, which, traveling westward, revealed to man his future destiny, and his dependence on a superior power. Thus every new and true doctrine, coming from these "wise men of the east," was, as it were, a new day arising, and dissipating the clouds of intellectual darkness and error. It was a universal opinion among the ancients that the first learning came from the east, and the often-quoted line of Bishop Berkely, that

"Westward the course of empire takes its way,''

is but the modern utterance of an ancient thought, for it was always believed that the empire of truth and knowledge was advancing from the east to the west.
Again: the north, as the point in the horizon which is most remote from the vivifying rays of the sun when at his meridian height, has, with equal metaphorical propriety, been called the place of darkness, and is, therefore, symbolic of the profane world, which has not yet been penetrated and illumined by the intellectual rays of Masonic light. All history concurs in recording the fact that, in the early ages of the world, its northern portion was enveloped in the most profound moral and mental darkness. It was from the remotest regions of northern Europe that those barbarian hordes "came down like the wolf on the fold," and devastated the fair plains of the south, bringing with them a dark curtain of ignorance, beneath whose heavy folds the nations of the world lay for centuries overwhelmed.

The extreme north has ever been, physically and intellectually, cold, and dark, and dreary. Hence, in Masonry, the north has ever been esteemed the place of darkness, and, in obedience to this principle, no symbolic light is allowed to illumine the northern part of the lodge.
The east, then, is, in Masonry, the symbol of the order, and the north the symbol of the profane world.
Now, the spiritual corner-stone is deposited in the north-east corner of the lodge, because it is symbolic of the position of the neophyte or candidate, who represents it in his relation to the order and to the world. From the profane world he has just emerged. Some of its imperfections are still upon him; some of its darkness is still about him; he as yet belongs in part to the north. But he is striving for light and truth; the pathway upon which he has entered is directed toward the east. His allegiance, if I may use the word, is divided. He is not altogether a profane, nor altogether a mason. If he were wholly in the world, the north would be the place to find him—the north, which is the reign of darkness. If he were wholly in the order—a Master Mason—the east would have received him— the east, which is the place of light. But he is neither; he is an Apprentice, with some of the ignorance of the world cleaving to him, and some of the light of the order beaming upon him. And hence this divided allegiance—this double character-—this mingling of the departing darkness of the north with the approaching brightness of the east, is well expressed, in our symbolism, by the appropriate position of the spiritual corner-stone in the north-east corner of the lodge. One surface of the stone faces the north, and the other surface faces the east. It is neither wholly in the one part nor wholly in the other, and in so far it is a symbol of initiation not fully developed—that which is incomplete and imperfect, and is, therefore, fitly represented by the recipient of the first degree, at the very moment of his initiation.*

__________________
* This symbolism of the double position of the corner-stone has not escaped the attention of the religious symbologists. Etsius, an early commentator, in 1682, referring to the passage in Ephesians ii. 20, says: "That is called the corner stone, or chief corner-stone, which is placed in the extreme angle of a foundation, (*joining and holding together two walls of the pile, meeting from different quarters. And the Apostle not only would be understood by this metaphor that Christ is the principal foundation of the whole church, but also that in him, as in a corner-stone, the two peoples, Jews and Gentiles, are conjoined, and so conjoined as to rise together into one edifice, and become one church." And Julius Firmicius, who wrote in the sixteenth century, says that Christ is called the corner-stone, because, being placed in the angle of the two walls, which are the Old and the New Testament, he collects the nations into one fold. "Lapis sanctus, i.e. Christus, aut fidei fundamenta sustentat aut in angulo positus duorum parietum membra aequata moderatione conjungit, i. e;, Veteris et Novi Testamenti in unum clligit gentes."—De Errore profan. Religioraim, chap, xxi
(The American Quarterly Review of Freemasonry and its Kindred Sciences, Vol. 2, No. 1, July 1859)

And yet another piece on the cube folding out into a cross:

Certain High Grade Masons will be reminded here that in one of the degrees of chivalry the Verbum Secretum is shown to the Candidate in a cube. When the Verbum secretum manifests as the Verbum caro factum, the cube opens out and presents the only other figure which is possible to its geometrical dimensions; that figure is a cross. Therefore it was necessary that the Word made flesh should be exalted on a cross, or crucified. When so uplifted, it is said, as we have seen otherwise, that the Word draws all things after is; but whereto does it draw them? The answer is given by St. Paul: into that place or state where their life is hid with Christ in God. (Waite, Secret Tradition in Freemasonry, Part 2, p. 317)
So despite the attempt by critics, earlier in the thread, to diss the idea of the foldout cross, apparently this is part of the chivalric degrees.
 
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Rev Wayne

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More on the cube shape and symbolism:

CUBE. The cube is a symbol of truth, of wisdom, of moral perfection. The new Jerusalem promised by the Apocalypse, is equal in length, breadth, and height. The mystical city ought to be considered a new church, where divine wisdom will reign. Isaiah, announcing the coming of the Messiah, said, "He shall dwell in the highest place of the solid rock, and the water which shall flow from him shall give life."
CUBICAL STONE. At the building of the Temple of Jerusalem, an unexpected and afflicting event occurred, which threw the Masons engaged in the work into the greatest confusion. The G. M. (H. A. B.) had sent to certain F. Cs. thirteen stones, and directed that with these they should complete a small square near the cape-stone, being the only portion of the fabric which remained unfinished. Every stone of the temple was formed into a square, containing five equilateral triangles, each equilateral triangle being equal to a cube, and each side and base of the triangles being equal to a plumb-line. The space, therefore, which remained to be completed was the last triangle of the last stone, and equal to the eighth part of the plumb-line, or 1/2of the circle, and 1-15 of the triangle, which number is in Hebrew the great name of the Almighty. The thirteen stones consisted of all the fragments which remained from the building, and comprised two cubes in two divisions. In the first was contained one cube in an entire piece, and in the second a cube in twelve parts: viz. 4 1/2 parts in one piece, 2 parts in 4 pieces, 1 part in 1 piece, and 1/2 part in 6 pieces; total 12 pieces. The F. Cs. carried the broken cube to S. K. I., who in conjunction with H. K. T. directed that they should be placed along with the jewels of the Craft, on a cubic stone encrusted with gold, in the centre of a deep cavern within the foundations of the temple, and further ordered, that the door of this mysterious court should be built up with large stones, in order that no one in future should be able to gain admission into this mysterious appartment. At the re-building of the temple, however, three F. Cs. lately returned from Babylon, in the course of their labours inadvertently stumbled upon this mysterious recess. They discovered the fractured cube, and carried the pieces to Z. J. H., who recognized in the four pieces the XXXX., and accordingly advanced the F. Cs., to a new Order in Masonry for having accomplished this discovery. (Dermott, Ahiman Rezon, p. 58)
 
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Here's an interesting piece on the cube:

The Cube is one of the principal geometrical symbols of Masonry. A point is the beginning of all geometrical matter. A line is the continuation of the same. A surface is length and breadth without a given thickness. A solid is length and breadth with a given thickness, which forms a Cube and comprehends the whole.
Three is the number of the Blue Lodge. Three constitute a Master Mason's Lodge. Nine, or 3 x 3, is the number of the Royal Arch. Nine constitute a Chapter, and in the Council we have 3 x 9, or 27, which forms the Cube and comprehends the whole of Ancient Craft Masonry. These figures also furnish the key to the number of books in the Bible. Three is the key number, 3 x 3 is 9, the number of books in the Old Testament being 39; 3 x 9 is 27, the number of books in the New Testament, sixty-six books in all.
The Cube is peculiarly symbolical--the Perfect Ashlar hewn from the rough irregular mass of possibility, until its angles are all right angles, its faces all square and equal--its length, its breadth, and its height as one. (Charles Albert Snodgrass, "Symbolism," Light From the Sanctuary of the Royal Arch, p. 179)
 
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Yet another piece on the cube:

It happens that the Holy of Holies of Solomon’s Temple was a cube (I Kings VI.20). In the book of Revelation (late 1st or early 2nd cent. CE), the symbolic New Jerusalem is a cube also :
And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he [an angel] measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty-four [12X12] cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. (Revelation XXI. 16-17)
But what of the Temple?
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (Revelation XXI. 22)
The Temple of the New Jerusalem is a spiritual Temple. (Cubic lodges are of course not unknown to Masonry). Why a cube? According to Nigel Pennick, author of Sacred Geometry, Pythagoras expressed a tradition where building ratios were related directly to musical ratios: “the symbolic cube..like the city of Revelation or the Jewish Holy of Holies, contains the consonances of the universe.” Gordon Strachan, author of Christ and the Cosmos, explains:
Why should the cube be thought to contain the consonances of the universe? Because the ratios of its sides and edges are all equal and can therefore be said to be one to one, 1:1. But the ratio 1:1 in music, represents the note of unison or full string-length and the full string-length contains within itself the vibrations of all the other musical intervals. (Freemasonry Today, Issue #11)
 
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Now THIS quote is particularly interesting, given your insistence on oblongness:

Symbolically the Altar is a cube in shape, though in practice it is made oblong. (Ohio Officers' Manual, 2006, p. 14)
That states the very thing I was telling you about ashlars, that no matter the depicted form, the symbolic form of the ashlar is a cube. Now we find the same thing said about the altar (although in our lodge, it actually IS a cube).
 
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