The Pastor King

[TrueWords]

djbuett


Hello and God bless,

I believe the pastor is one of the five fold ministry not the whole ministry. every joint can supply according to the efectual working in the measure of every part. the pastor is not the general either, Christ is the general. Truthfully we do not even read of a one man pasotr over any assembly in the new testament, we see "elders" in plural form in most assemblies.

You, as a memnber of the body have every biblical right to use any gifts God has given you at any time, and no man can hinder you or should try. All that others can do is warn you if you are in error and exhort you etc. the whole body has to make decisions together and not juts one man. if you follow the freedom of christ as given in the bible, you should be able to share with anyone. try doing this as God leads. Open your own home and invite others by and wait on the Lord and watch what good things can happen. If the so called pastor gets wind of this, he may try and discourage you. but pray for him then, for he is in great eror if he does this. tell him he may come also if he does not dominate and hinder Christ from working in the body. If you like i would talk to him any time, give him my e-mail.

downey@ca.inter.net

 

[discernomatic]

Discernomatic, I read your posts directing to TrueWords and I just wanted to share some thoughts with you.

As I was reading your first post, it gave to me a sense of discouragment. What do I mean by this? My English is not so good and often I refuse to write because I am not sure that I will rightly convey my thoughts.....................
However, let me strongly support what you have said in your previous post:

I couldn't agree more with your above statement, sister. AMEN!

Hi Count,

I'm sorry if my post was discouraging to you. I have improved my style over time. You should have seen what I was like three years ago after I found out I had been deceived in various movements. I was definitely not one happy camper. I hadn't the time to cite everything I would agree with in TrueWord's post, the list would have been too long.

And even if what I said about Viola and the others is not in the best interest of unity, that word is pretty popular right now, I think that it would not be displeasing to God. Jesus spoke out against false doctrine - that of the Pharisees. He made no secret about it and used even stronger language than I do. He called them vipers. To my knowledge I did not use that word or one as strong. Paul criticized false apostles, damning them. I have not damned anyone. I give them the benefit of the doubt as to their Christianity, but insist on speaking out against false doctrine where I find it. Even a biblical definition of false doctrine may be up for grabs, as not everyone interprets the bible in the same way.

If you choose to unite with certain people that is your prerogative. I don't have to, and indeed Jesus and the epistle writers warn us not to unite with just anyone, not even anyone that simply calls himself Christian. I have attended ecumenical meetings, but have not felt the need to participate fully, rather to observe. No, they are not all bad, but are not all good, either. I think that I can separate one from the other and don't see why I shouldn't be able to tell my thoughts about this to others. A lie can consist of a truth that is withheld, depending on the nature of the truth. I choose not to tell a woman that is wearing an ugly dress that it doesn't look good on her - to avoid hurting her feelings. But if the truth concerned goes deeper than that, perhaps the woman is drinking, I should try to tell her this is harmful for her. That would be doing her a real service, if it helps her to abstain from drinking. Spiritual matters can be similar. Telling someone he is in error - lovingly - can be a service. Since Viola isn't here, I can't tell him that, but can form an opinion about his works and even publish it. That is not slander, I have said nothing about the man per-sé, only about what he has written. I can agree or disagree with it, as with any written work. I can speculate why he wrote it, but of course only the author really knows why.

If Luther had kept his mouth shut, we would not have had the Reformation. Thank you Luther, for speaking up and making a lot of people uncomfortable! And thank you Lord, for giving him the courage to do so! If he had succumbed to the ultra-positive "unity" speech that is going around today and never made any waves, we would still probably be in the dark ages of the Church. Jesus would never have gone along with what the Pharisees were teaching. If he had, they wouldn't have had him crucified.

If you read my signature, you will see that I write that the truth is not always pretty. The truth is not always positive. Jesus was a man of sorrows. Paul had many cares and duties. Peter was martyred. Of course these men had hope. Jesus knew what his death and resurrection would accomplish. Paul was overjoyed to be suffering and dying for the faith. Jesus told us that many of us would suffer for Him too, and even die for Him.

Of course it is hard to prove deeds through writing. I don't just consist of what I write. I do support and encourage people, it just doesn't always work well in the middle of apologetics. Hey, I even meet up with Catholics every so often, to tell them the gospel and live it so that they can see it. That is hard to avoid, I am surrounded by Catholics here. Up till now it has not had results, but maybe God is working where I can't see Him. I hope that some of my friends will hear the gospel some day, it would be nice to have a few of them on board, too. Till now it has gone in one ear and out the other. It just wasn't the right time or maybe never will be. That doesn't matter. I don't convert people, the Holy Spirit does. The main thing is that I am doing what I should be, telling the gospel and living it. Relationships have a lot to do with Christian life, but Christianity is not made of one-sided things, it is a balance of many things, each of which are important. Relationships, faith, doctrine, deeds...I could go on, but must go offline. See you 'round.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Pastor just means caring. Not leadership.

 

[TrueWords]

FLANDIDLYANDERS


Hello,

you said,

"
FLANDIDLYANDERS
When I am slain may my corpse lie facing the Enemy
29


Reputation: 1,170
Health: 100%
Blessings: 525
Posts: 1,412

Pastor just means caring. Not leadership.
'

My response,

try teling that to about 99 % of pastors. I talked with a pastor ( s called) today and i asked if their meetings allowed for others to use their gifts and to interact. he basically said, no, and that that would hinder the Spirits leading and his one man ministry. i am so grieved by such men, they just think they can do whatever they want and no one can question them. if you question them, they simply say things like, well, that is how i do it or how we do it, if you don;t like it go find another church. they ignorne scripture often and when you call them to a scripture and they see ther clear error they simply try to avoid you and say you should find another church.

To all listening here, whe you are in a gathering and you have a gift from God and a word etc you can share as God leads, don't let anyone hinder you especially the pastor so called. if you were to just stand up and share a revelation etc with the whole body and then the one man pastor show tried to stop you, you can biblically ask him to please let you finish or ignore him. ( Unless you are speaking damnable doctrine etc0 he has no power to stop you from speaking in Christ, or at least he should have no power. yet today they are super powerful authouritarians, almost as if tyhey are Christ over you. And if any dare to speak outside of their allowance to do so, watch the so called ushers come and drag you out.

These things are soo grievous. These men aree unaccountable. If you want to share you may have to do it and then be dragged out as a sign to the others there as you cry out.

 

[djbuett]

True words et. al..
Indeed I wonder about a pastor's accountability..I think that they have to have people around them that can encourage, but also correct...I see too much of the good time charlie's in leadership patting pastors on the back while they do very little of substance...The idea of shepherd is a good one, but one lost on most pastors, as, unfortunately, the leaving the 99 to go after the 1 should apply to anyone that has left a "flock", but, indeed, as testifiable by this unabashed church shopper, leaving a church as been, in all cases, as easy as anything....just stop showing up and people will treat you like a leper...I have made it a point to try and stay in touch with people who have left the church I am currently attending, and they say things like "you're the only one that has bothered to contact me".....how sad...

 

[TrueWords]

djbuett


Hello,

God bless.

Those people who have left other gatherings you should contact, that is good, encourage them to come together in your home on a Sunday moring or Saturday, or whenever. I suggest any other day but Sunday for starters, unless they want to meet on Sundays. This ay you can invite others and not interfere at the beginning with their Sunday religious thing. Also open up to hospitality and seek to win new souls to Christ through the Spirit and love and truth of the gospel (which is 1 Cor 15:1-5).

If you get others to come over and fellowship and open the word , sing a few songs as God leads , pray as God leads, and have a meal together, (and it doesn't have to be in any order as I just said) but Let God give the order, seek him and wait on him and share Christ. Share truth and revelation, talk about the great things God as done in yours and others lives. Encourage others, teach, rebuke correct, love etc. It is marvelous. We have been doing this for some fifteen years or so, from house to house. I have seen hundreds of brethren come through the hmes, unfortunately a smaller number actually commit to the walk and commiot to the truth of these things. But we have had some very wonderful and lively meetings. yes we have also had some harder meetings and attacks of the enemy. But Gods way is the way. And Christ is the foundation in every way he is the way.

It starts out as a sort of bible study, (though it is actually a church gathering around Christ) then prayer comes in and worshop and a meal together and teaching etc. If you have the Lords supper it becomes even more as a church gathering for some. Do water baptisms, if you need, and reach out together into the community.

If others don't want to come to your home, meet at their home if they are willing. At first you may need to gather with even one brother or family and build a relationship with them. Talk of the church and the things of God. if you have any questions, I would also love to help you, if you want my help. But most of all seek Christ leading, put him first, develope a deep intimate relation ship with him and he will show you wonderful things. Learn to radically trust in Christ for all things and to lead the meetings. The flesh has to die for this to happen, we so often want to ruch into things rather than gather our hearts and minds into Christ. Sacrifice of our old traditional forms and fleshy worship etc is the hardest thing to do. But as God works among you you will see less and less of the form, I pray.

But be ready for attacks of the enemy, and for others to treat you as if you are a rebel not submitting to the Lordship of the pastor etc. They will say all sorts of unbiblical things,, like, "there has to be authority and order" they mean mans pastor authority over others, and the order that quenches the spirit in everyone but the pastor. They will ask unbiblical questions like, "where is your church" or who is your covering" , or, " what is the name of your church' .

By the way elders in the plural form are the overseers, not a one man pastor. These elders may be apostles, prophets, pastors, teacher, evangelist, or none of the above. But this idea that the oversight is a single one man pastor role is totally unbiblical.

Anway God bless, keep in touch.

God bless.

 

[djbuett]

Truewords,
Your groups sound wonderful. Church has become so political and complicated. Not to sound too critical, but these churches spend so much time and energy on how the music sounds...give me a guy on a guitar or an old spinster on an organ any day...wonder what you do with your "tythe", which is another topic all together...I'll never forget how I gave a friend who had to quit work and was lying in bed my "tythe" and received a tearfilled thanks....made me wonder why I was throwing money in the pot all those years...(still do as a matter of fact)....I have noted here in Fresno that there are quite a few people who I respect that have gone out on their own...thanks..

 

[Count]

Hi Count,

I'm sorry if my post was discouraging to you. I have improved my style over time. You should have seen what I was like three years ago after I found out I had been deceived in various movements. I was definitely not one happy camper. I hadn't the time to cite everything I would agree with in TrueWord's post, the list would have been too long.

Hi discernomatic,

It is not that I have been discouraged, but I think that your post was discouraging for everyone reading it. What do I mean by this? I mean that we all have agreements and disagreements, but this doesn't mean that we should be careful because whatever differences others have with us, are false doctrines. To say that I disagree with somebody on a particular view is one thing, but to say that it is a false doctrine is quite another thing. The problem is that people will never agree on everything, so if we were to wait untill we find a group of people to agree on everything, we would never find such a church.

Why your particular writing was disapointing? Let us suppose that somebody read for the first time for W. Nee in your writing. You gave the impression that we should be careful not to be deceived by him or his teaching. So, the problem with that person would be that whenever he found in the internet writings or books from W. Nee, would never read them because they would have been prejudiced by your writing.

And even if what I said about Viola and the others is not in the best interest of unity, that word is pretty popular right now, I think that it would not be displeasing to God. Jesus spoke out against false doctrine - that of the Pharisees. He made no secret about it and used even stronger language than I do. He called them vipers. To my knowledge I did not use that word or one as strong. Paul criticized false apostles, damning them. I have not damned anyone. I give them the benefit of the doubt as to their Christianity, but insist on speaking out against false doctrine where I find it. Even a biblical definition of false doctrine may be up for grabs, as not everyone interprets the bible in the same way.

You see, you are talking again about false doctrine, but to be honest I from the books that I have read from Viola, I have never seen a false doctrine. I may disagree on somethings with him, (to be honest, I haven't any disagreement from what I have read from his books) but this doesn't mean that whenever I disagree, other's opinion is false doctrine. Morever, it doesn't mean that I am always right. I may diagree with somebody, but it doesn't mean that I am the one who is right.

If you choose to unite with certain people that is your prerogative. I don't have to, and indeed Jesus and the epistle writers warn us not to unite with just anyone, not even anyone that simply calls himself Christian. I have attended ecumenical meetings, but have not felt the need to participate fully, rather to observe. No, they are not all bad, but are not all good, either. I think that I can separate one from the other and don't see why I shouldn't be able to tell my thoughts about this to others. A lie can consist of a truth that is withheld, depending on the nature of the truth. I choose not to tell a woman that is wearing an ugly dress that it doesn't look good on her - to avoid hurting her feelings. But if the truth concerned goes deeper than that, perhaps the woman is drinking, I should try to tell her this is harmful for her. That would be doing her a real service, if it helps her to abstain from drinking. Spiritual matters can be similar. Telling someone he is in error - lovingly - can be a service. Since Viola isn't here, I can't tell him that, but can form an opinion about his works and even publish it. That is not slander, I have said nothing about the man per-sé, only about what he has written. I can agree or disagree with it, as with any written work. I can speculate why he wrote it, but of course only the author really knows why.

You and me and anyone don't have to join a particular group of people, but as Christians we have to accept anyone who is born again as our dearest brothers and sisters, even if it happen to disagree on many subjects with them. I would be completely open to any born again Christian even if they happened to be Catholics, Orthodhoxes, or Protestants.

By the way, when you refered to what I had said about Catholics, you told me stories about Chatholics who are not born again Christians. No, when I refered to the conversation with a catholic, I was talking about a born again Christian. If one is born again, no matter what they are, they are brothes that have been cleansed and bought by the blood of Jesus Christ, so I can freely fellowship with them, if they wouldn't have any problem to fellowship with me. By the way, Jeanne Guyon has been a catholic sister whose books have had great impact among protestants.

 

[TrueWords]

Count,

Hello,

I know you don't feel quite the way I do about catholic teachings. But for example, if a catholic came into a home meeting and shared their other gospel which is not the same gospel of Christ. and they have a different way of salvation, contrary to 1 Corinthians 15:1-5. What can you do or say. Should you just consider them a believer when they have another gospel? I know some of them might simply believe in jesus but if they continue to go to the catholic church they can have serious problems, which can have eternal consequences.

Anyway the gospel issue is at stake when we talk about catholic teachings and their way of salvation.

 

[Count]

Count,

Hello,

I know you don't feel quite the way I do about catholic teachings. But for example, if a catholic came into a home meeting and shared their other gospel which is not the same gospel of Christ. and they have a different way of salvation, contrary to 1 Corinthians 15:1-5. What can you do or say. Should you just consider them a believer when they have another gospel? I know some of them might simply believe in jesus but if they continue to go to the catholic church they can have serious problems, which can have eternal consequences.

Anyway the gospel issue is at stake when we talk about catholic teachings and their way of salvation.

Hi TrueWords, what I belive is that there are born again Christians in all christian denominations. Thus, I believe there are true Christians even within Catholic and Orthodox church.

If a catholic came to a home meeting it means he/she is not satisfied with his/her church. Usually people visit house churches and if they don't like the way they gather, they just leave. I don't think that some wrong doctrines from a catholic church would affect those who live in a church life. Quite the contrary, the Life of the church would make them see their lifeless meetings. If not, they will just leave. But the fact that somebody leaves, doesn't mean they are not born again Christians. We should be very careful with Christians within organized religion, otherwise we would be sectarian.

 

[TrueWords]

Count


hello again,

You said,

"Hi TrueWords, what I belive is that there are born again Christians in all christian denominations. Thus, I believe there are true Christians even within Catholic and Orthodox church.

"

My response,

Yes, I believe there are christians in many religious groups . But that does not believe that we are to justify the religious group because of it. They may be on their way out or bound up in ingnorance and misunderstanding. This also does not mean that we should for a second justify the "DAMNABLE" doctrines and different gospel that is taught by many of them, especially some of the horrible teaching in the Roman Church. The very gospel is affected in the Catholic church.

You said,

"Count
Regular Member
34


Reputation: 234
Health: 6%
Blessings: 213
Posts: 113


Quote *
Originally Posted by: TrueWords


Count,

Hello,

I know you don't feel quite the way I do about catholic teachings. But for example, if a catholic came into a home meeting and shared their other gospel which is not the same gospel of Christ. and they have a different way of salvation, contrary to 1 Corinthians 15:1-5. What can you do or say. Should you just consider them a believer when they have another gospel? I know some of them might simply believe in jesus but if they continue to go to the catholic church they can have serious problems, which can have eternal consequences.

Anyway the gospel issue is at stake when we talk about catholic teachings and their way of salvation.


Hi TrueWords, what I belive is that there are born again Christians in all christian denominations. Thus, I believe there are true Christians even within Catholic and Orthodox church.

If a catholic came to a home meeting it means he/she is not satisfied with his/her church."

My response,

yes, and many of them leave the catholic Church finally because of the false doctrines that Rome teaches. We are not just presenting to them a nioce family type way of meeting. many culkts could do the same, we are presenting to them the TRUTH, that will make them free from all falsehoods and ways of meeting and bondage. If they come to our meetings and they hear the truth in love and come to see that they are believeing a falsehood by trusting in the mass or the other gospel that is preached in Roman catholic Churches, and that they way of salvation is far different from what they have been taught. that truth if they come to believe it ( namely the true gospel) will set them free. What fellowship hath light with darkness?

You said,

" Usually people visit house churches and if they don't like the way they gather, they just leave."

My response,

Our whole gathering does not depend on someone "liking the way we gather or not, it depend on if we are gathering in truth and love and as Christ showed us through the apostolic patterns delivered to us and from the commands of God to us. We are not trying to appeal to the fleshy nature of men and women. if we seek to just appeal to their liking us or not them we will never expose their sin and be men pleasers, not God pleasers. At least this is how i see it so far. I do agree to be gracious and kind and loving as much as is in us.

You said,

"I don't think that some wrong doctrines from a catholic church would affect those who live in a church life"

My response,

They certainly can. if you get a Roman catholic who comes to your meetings and still retains for years his different way of salvation than the bible teaches and he prays to mary and keeps trying to teach into the assembly the need of a Mass, and other catholic doctrines, do you think this would be good for the body? Would not this affect greatly the others who live in the body of Christ?

You said,

" But the fact that somebody leaves, doesn't mean they are not born again Christians'

My response,

It depends on the context. John said that some went out from them (or left) because they were not all of them. Others leave gatherings because they seperate themseves, having not the spirit as one new testament writer put it. And other leave because they forsake theassembling of themselves together. Why would any righteous man leave a gathering where God has directed their steps? The only reason i see for leaveing a committed body of believers is if God calls you into a itinerant ministr or to visit a place for a time, or if you are cast out or disciplined, or if you were to fall into sin and leave yourself. Some could also move away to another city because of a job etc. But hopefully the city they are going their would be other Christians they could connect with. But this again should be considered before hand and prayed about with the body. The devil may be tempting the man or woman with the love of more money and trying to break up a meeting this way. i have seen it happen, and the brother and sister are secluded with no real fellowship and they were valuable to the body before they left. There is so much more that could be said about this.

You said,

"We should be very careful with Christians within organized religion, otherwise we would be sectarian.
******** "

My response,

the Chrisians that are in man made organized religion are in the sects and are sectarian ,more than often I believe. To gather freely in our homes around Christ with a plurality of non dominating elders who are merely like older brothers, where all are allowed to use their God given gifts, is not sectarian. We do not say " I am of Paul, or Appolos, or I am Lutherin, or Calvinist, or Methodist, etc . Tjhis is sectarian and divisive to the body.

Bye for now,

God bless

 

[New_Wineskin]

Count,

Hello,

I know you don't feel quite the way I do about catholic teachings. But for example, if a catholic came into a home meeting and shared their other gospel which is not the same gospel of Christ. and they have a different way of salvation, contrary to 1 Corinthians 15:1-5. What can you do or say. Should you just consider them a believer when they have another gospel? I know some of them might simply believe in jesus but if they continue to go to the catholic church they can have serious problems, which can have eternal consequences.

Anyway the gospel issue is at stake when we talk about catholic teachings and their way of salvation.

That is interesting in speaking of the Catholic group . However , you are ignoring the vast majority of the noncatholic groups that have the gospel of righteousness by observing the Law . The mentality of the "authority of the Scriptures" is exactly the same as the mentality that Paul spoke against with regards to observing the Law . *Exactly* . Whenever someone says "the bible says this so do it ." , they are saying that salvation comes from works . They have as much of a salvation on works as the Catholic group if not more . They have also set up other three-legged stools with their own heirarchies and doctrines .

 

[TrueWords]

New_Wineskin


You said,

"...The mentality of the "authority of the Scriptures" is exactly the same as the mentality that Paul spoke against with regards to observing the Law . *Exactly* . Whenever someone says "the bible says this so do it ." , they are saying that salvation comes from works ...."

My response,

You are greatly in error here. Paul said that the thing he wrote were the "commandements of the Lord.' You seem to forget or purposly ignore these clear text. The apostolic teaching that we have in the holy scriptures are from Gods Spirit to the churches. Obedience of faith is not legalism. Legalism is man trying to attain righteousness by his own effort and strength. But towalk in the strength of the Lords power through obedience of faith is not legalism. We are not without law to God as paul said, we fulfill the law and walk the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Your understanding of the HOLY scriptures is very distressing. You should read 1 Corinthians 14:37,38 again and again.

You could not be farther from the truth in this matter. I do however believe that many use the scriptures wrongly and do not have the Spirit to open thier understanding of them. This is ehere many go astray. But holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Spirit. These things were written down for us. paul said that when they recieved th word from him they recieved it not as the word of men but as it is in truth the word of God that effevtually worketh in those that believe.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine reproof correction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect,...furnished unto all good works.

And we know that faith without works (God working in you to will and to do) is dead.

You said,

"Whenever someone says "the bible says this so do it ." , they are saying that salvation comes from works ....""

My response,

So now you attack the Lord Jesus Christ who said,

"It it written" many times, and then rebuked others with the word.

You attack Paul and peter and others who quoted scripture in their teachings. You greatly misunderstand. I think I have told you this before and you still ave not got it.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

New_Wineskin


You said,

"...The mentality of the "authority of the Scriptures" is exactly the same as the mentality that Paul spoke against with regards to observing the Law . *Exactly* . Whenever someone says "the bible says this so do it ." , they are saying that salvation comes from works ...."

My response,

You are greatly in error here. Paul said that the thing he wrote were the "commandements of the Lord.' You seem to forget or purposly ignore these clear text. The apostolic teaching that we have in the holy scriptures are from Gods Spirit to the churches. Obedience of faith is not legalism. Legalism is man trying to attain righteousness by his own effort and strength. But towalk in the strength of the Lords power through obedience of faith is not legalism. We are not without law to God as paul said, we fulfill the law and walk the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Your understanding of the HOLY scriptures is very distressing. You should read 1 Corinthians 14:37,38 again and again.

You could not be farther from the truth in this matter. I do however believe that many use the scriptures wrongly and do not have the Spirit to open thier understanding of them. This is ehere many go astray. But holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Spirit. These things were written down for us. paul said that when they recieved th word from him they recieved it not as the word of men but as it is in truth the word of God that effevtually worketh in those that believe.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine reproof correction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect,...furnished unto all good works.

And we know that faith without works (God working in you to will and to do) is dead.

You said,

"Whenever someone says "the bible says this so do it ." , they are saying that salvation comes from works ....""

My response,

So now you attack the Lord Jesus Christ who said,

"It it written" many times, and then rebuked others with the word.

You attack Paul and peter and others who quoted scripture in their teachings. You greatly misunderstand. I think I have told you this before and you still ave not got it.

Your encouragement unto this person is right on.
God's Word is OUR LIFE in CHRIST NOW.
I do believe that it is God who has to show others about "True Obedience" in Love,..we can
talk about How Christ does Obedience through us and that we love it being done in us but
until others gets this Revelation from God Himself it can look like legalism which it isn't. It's
just blessed Living - Who is Christ our Righteousness found in His Grace in good works. Glory
To God.

Carry on,
In His Love,
Connie

 

[New_Wineskin]

My response,

You are greatly in error here

I forgot to whom I was responding . That won't happen again .

 

[TrueWords]

New Wineskin

Go ahead, respond, I have love towards you, I am only seeking to correct the error you are teaching. I only mean good for your soul. please don't get in a huff.

Why are you unwilling to respond to me? i spoke the truth to you.

 

[discernomatic]

Hi Count, sorry I didn't get back to this until now, have been setting up a blog and re-doing my site in xhtml, still am not finished, but am taking a breather.

Hi discernomatic,

It is not that I have been discouraged, but I think that your post was discouraging for everyone reading it...... To say that I disagree with somebody on a particular view is one thing, but to say that it is a false doctrine is quite another thing. The problem is that people will never agree on everything, so if we were to wait untill we find a group of people to agree on everything, we would never find such a church.

I think I know where you are coming from here. These days anything "negative" is often seen as "bad". But Paul did have to say negative things about the false doctrine some were preaching. He was a bit rough with the Corinthians because he loved them and wanted to protect them from that false doctrine.

I think that if one uses biblical references, one can easily prove whether a doctrine is scriptural or if it is false. If this can be done, it should be in my opinion. I fully intend to shed doubt on some recent doctrinal fads. Too many just accept everything that they hear or read and embrace it without thinking, just because a pastor or preacher has said it. They assume that these people are preaching in their best interests, which may not be the case whether from ignorance or intention.

I state everything as my opinion, not as absolute - even when I feel that it is absolute. The preachers I question can exude authority better than I can, and few question what they are saying. Just as you have already done with what I wrote, take what you like and leave the rest. I am human and can make mistakes. I don't have a problem with that, I'm no leader, but feel that it is important to warn others of possible false doctrine so that they don't just embrace these things without at least thinking about it first. I think that this is just using sound judgment even in non-church and non-Christian situations. Don't go into any situation naively. It would be like a child going with a stranger. The person may take care of the child, then again they may not. From being spiritually abused and from studying the phenomenon, I can say that a lot of it starts with one person that looks up to and trusts another like a layman to a pastor, and the pastor betrays that trust either by misusing, abusing, and/or misleading the one that is dependent on him. The really bad thing about such situations was that the abuser was a person of authority and invested trust. That is why abuse in a familial situation is so devastating, the abuser was supposed to be the person one could trust. Abuse can happen even virtually, through books, forums and other media. Christians are supposed to be a family too, yet you can't trust everyone although the ideal says you should be able to. It is sad, but it is reality. Some realities can be negative, but should not be swept under the rug. Hiding something or denying its existence won't make it go away, the likelihood is rather that the problem may get worse if it is not dealt with or at least mentioned.

Why your particular writing was disapointing? Let us suppose that somebody read for the first time for W. Nee in your writing. You gave the impression that we should be careful not to be deceived by him or his teaching. So, the problem with that person would be that whenever he found in the internet writings or books from W. Nee, would never read them because they would have been prejudiced by your writing.

I don't tell people not to read these things at all, just to read them with caution. Nothing should be read without thinking what may be between the lines, yet hardly anyone does it, it seems. I think that it is something that can be learned and implemented to protect oneself.

You and me and anyone don't have to join a particular group of people, but as Christians we have to accept anyone who is born again as our dearest brothers and sisters, even if it happen to disagree on many subjects with them. I would be completely open to any born again Christian even if they happened to be Catholics, Orthodhoxes, or Protestants.

I never state that anyone's whose works I question is not Christian. I do not doubt their words when they say they are born-again. But I can compare their actions and words with Scripture as Paul suggests, looking for evidence of the fruit of the Spirit and Christian conduct - or a lack of it. A lot of people judge others by their haircut or clothing, but looking at what is behind those things is what is really important. If a pastor's character and proposed doctrine can't stand up to scrutiny, then maybe he shouldn't be so prominent, no matter how stylish he is.

By the way, when you refered to what I had said about Catholics, you told me stories about Chatholics who are not born again Christians. No, when I refered to the conversation with a catholic, I was talking about a born again Christian. If one is born again, no matter what they are, they are brothes that have been cleansed and bought by the blood of Jesus Christ, so I can freely fellowship with them, if they wouldn't have any problem to fellowship with me.....

Some may criticize me for this, but I do have non-Christian friends. Non-Christians need to see how we live. If we stay away from them they will never know it. Just talking about Jesus is not enough, they have to see practical Christianity at work in our lives, our characters, words and actions. That is why I associate with Catholics that are not born-again, atheists, Muslims (liberal in faith)..... As long as they pose no temptation to myself, I hope that our friendships will carry spiritual fruit some day. For me that is part of my Christian walk just as it is to meet with Christians.

I understand where you are coming from, but still feel the need to post my opinions whether positive or negative and try to help others be more cautious when dealing even with other Christians or those that call themselves Christians. We are not in heaven yet where there will be no more dangers. God watches out for us, but still expects us to use good judgment, to be mature.

 

[Count]

Hi Discernomatic. I don't think that a newly born again Christian will ever be able to prove if a doctrine is scriptural or not by using biblical references. It is Jesus Christ who protect us from going astray, not our abilities to study the scriptures. Let me illustrate it a little bit.

Thirteen years ago, somebody at my work talked to me about Jesus Christ. It was then that his words spoke to me directly in my heart and I accpeted Christ as my Saviour. That person belongs to a Free Evagelical Church here in Athens. Please keep in mind that here in Greece, whoever is not Orthodox, is considered heretic.

So, humanly speaking there was no chance of accepting that brother's words as true, since he was supposed to be an heretic. However, Jesus Christ convinced me. It is more than acceptable, that at that time, I was not able to use biblical references, in order to see if his words were true. It was just the Life who dwelled in me that gave me life. It was an empirical matter, not a matter of studing or/and searching.

After my first contacts with that brother and my conversion to Christ, I joined that particular church. For about six years I was one of the most regular church attenders. I would never miss a church meeting.

I was a baby in Christ and I had fallen to their hands. I accepted everything they said as right and the only right thing in the world. I used to see that church as the only right church in the world, and don't tell me that this was not normal for a baby in Christ. A baby cannot do anything except of receiving every kind of food it is given.

I was continually told that they do nothing but what it is writen in the bible and I rigoriously read my bible every single day for 2 hours a day. However, I still thought that they were doing nothing but what the bible teaches. The problem was that I was worn coloured glasses every time I read the bible. I worn evangelical glasses.

Why did I tell all this story? Because this story is not he exeption, but the rule. Because once someone is converted to Christ, they are not able of discerning, since they are babies. So they are at the hands of the particular church they attend and........ Christ.

After these years in Christ, I have learned to see all the Christians who confess Christ as my brothers and sisters, no matter what the differences. There are times when people declare they belong to Christ, but I don't feel it. However I accept them in basis of what they say. There are times, when people don't need to tell they belong to Christ, since it is so obvious, even when they don't belong to protestantism. This happened with the catholic brother I have been conversating with.

Dear sister, I belong to Christ and I have put all my trust in Him. For me He is my only Doctrine. I know He is love and His children are everywhere within the Christian denominations. I believe in a gatherings of followers of Jesus Christ that has no name, doctrine etc., except Him. My desire is just to gather around Him in the simpliest possible way and learn how to pursue Him, learn how to fellowship with Him and each other, adore Him and love Him. I'm not interested to know what my brothers and sisters believe in one or another issue. As far as they belong to Him, for me is enough. As far as they want to pursue Him, for me is enough.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that we could do anything we like, or could live a sinful life. I am not saying that we don't need scriptures to see how we are doing, but I want to avoid reading Scriptures in a way that would make me to exclude other, just becaue they don't belong to my group.

Scriptures for me is a way of feeding. The church should read the bible not as a book full of doctrines which would protect us from wrong doctrines, but as a book full of food, full of water, full of Christ. We should learn how to encaurage one onother with the bible verses, not to make them feel unsecure, feel lest they are going astray.

You say, your intention is to protect people from wrong doctrines. I say, that the healthiest way to protect people from wrong doctrine is to give Jesus Christ in an experiential way. By the way, Watchman Nee's book have given me Christ more than all those years in the evangelical church, more than the hundred and thousand preachings I used to listen to every Sunday morning, more than hundred and thousand bible studies.

I understand where you are coming from,

Can you explain to me please what does this expresion mean in English, because I am not sure what you really mean by it. I've seen it in a couple of posts, but I don't really know what does it mean? Does it mean "I understand what you want to say", or something else?

Sorry for my ignorance!

 

[Johnnz]

Hi Count,

What a gracious and wonderful reply.

Here is something I wrote a while ago when looking at doctrinal divisions within the Christian community. It is very much in tune with your comments.

The New Testament world was very different from our own. Yet there were similarities too. Christians were a small minority. Greek philosophy, which was highly sophisticated, had extensively influenced Roman society. There were extremes of wealth and poverty. Social stratification had a strong influence throughout society. There were the ruling elites and the smaller groups that served them. Roman citizenship was prized. Peasants and slaves formed a large proportion of the population. Literacy was confined to the wealthy.

Religion was everywhere. Temples, fertility cults, paganism and idolatry were ever present. Nude theatre competed with other entertainments. Worst of all, there was the amphitheatre, where humans slaughtered each other, or were slain by wild animals as popular public entertainment.

The church in Corinth formed within such a cultural background. Paul’s letters reflect the many issues of the new community and the problems its members faced. His method of addressing those problems is highly instructive for us today. The Book of Corinthians gives us a good cross section of issues facing the new church and how Paul addressed them.

Paul’s primary concern was not doctrinal correctness but relationship with Jesus. It was not that doctrine was unimportant to Paul, but that doctrine can just be a mental exercise devoid of spiritual life. We can accord greater importance to ‘doctrinal correctness’ than to the quality of our relationship with Jesus. Paul never saw doctrine as mere mental acceptance of truth. Jesus alone was “The Truth” Doctrine must lead to a living relationship with Jesus that transforms our lives, and must never be confined to doctrinal statements about Him. Each issue Paul wrote about was related back to a challenge for every person to grow in their knowledge and experience of the living Christ.


In the first four chapters of 1 Corinthians Paul deals with division within the Christian community. Members were divided over personalities and their teachings.

We should note that Paul did not write as we would have done. He did not give a statement of “This is what you must believe, just as the Lord has revealed to me as your apostle and spiritual father”. Paul sought to expand the mindsets of the Corinthians by giving them a better understanding of their responsibilities to maintain unity, and reasons for so doing. Christendom has splintered into denominations as groups have emphasised assent to doctrine above building actual relationship with Jesus within the Christian community. We are Baptists, Free Church, High Church, Pentecostal (shades of “I am of Paul, I of Apollos&#8221. Paul always sought to keep people sufficiently related to Jesus as revealed by the indwelling Spirit. Paul had confidence that Jesus was able to fully and properly instruct people in essential matters of godly understanding. (Jude 24).

Paul consistently refers the Christian community to reflect on their relationship to Christ. “Is Christ divided?” he asks. If people with a common experience of and trust in Christ insist that their own doctrines are the true ones doesn’t that imply that Jesus is telling different people different things about himself? (1:10-13)

Then Paul reminds each party that in the minds of the wise and the religious (Greeks and Jews) the message of the cross is foolishness anyway. He uses irony to invert the “correctness of our position” into consideration that God’s foolish plan is still far wiser than the best of men’s plans. (1:18-25) Thus Paul asked the church to reflect on the unimaginable scope of the God’s salvation in contrast to the limitations of all human wisdom. Paul thereby sought to bring members into a place of intellectual humility, where they would back down from claiming the superiority of their respective beliefs.

He then reminded them that social status was not important in establishing one’s position (1:26-2:5). Any insights they had were not of human origin. They came from God by the Spirit. Nobody can claim exclusive access or superior intellectual prowess in learning about God – everyone was dependent on God revealing His Truth (2:6-16).

Division (i.e. parties claiming to have the ‘correct position&#8217 arises from immaturity, the failure to understand that the Truth of the Gospel is located in God’s revelation, not human merit of any kind (3:1-4).

Paul then uses the examples of the two apostles, himself and Apollos. They were mere servants, not honoured ‘visiting dignitaries’. If anyone could claim special insights it was the apostles themselves. But servants don’t act that way. (3:5-9).

The only foundation for a person’s life is Jesus Christ. We must take care to ensure that we build only on that foundation. Anything else (my understanding, our church traditions etc) that I insist upon will not survive God’s judgement. Only Jesus and His Life are important (3:10-17). It is important to note that verses 16 & 17 refer to the people of God as “God’s temple”. Anything which divides God’s people by failing to recognise a believer’s common life in Jesus Christ is destructive and will be severely judged. Christian Truth is freely available to all believers. It is not the domain of a ‘special few’. (3:18-23).

John
NZ

 

[discernomatic]

Hi Discernomatic. I don't think that a newly born again Christian will ever be able to prove if a doctrine is scriptural or not by using biblical references. It is Jesus Christ who protect us from going astray, not our abilities to study the scriptures. Let me illustrate it a little bit............

I agree that newborns have a hard time checking the Scriptures, it was easier for the Jews of Paul's day because they were familiar with them. At the beginning they must accept what they are fed. You were more fortunate than I was after being born-again, despite the label of heretic, no one even bothered to feed me. I had to wait until my parents were born-again for that, and then we learned together, they were as new as I was. We blundered in and out of strange churches for years.

The greatest problem that I see is that many talk about Christianity and play the "Christian" game without really living as Christ intended us to. That is what leads to the false doctrine, in my opinion. If there weren't so many playing church that were not sincere about it, then there would be a lot less spiritual casualties, a lot fewer spiritually abused. Living the way Jesus intended us to, without being burdened down by unnecessary rules, helping, teaching and caring for others, being free in him, is what he wanted.

I think that Scripture is something to help us stay on track, so that we know if we are being led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would not contradict or twist what the OT contains or what Jesus told us. God is not against himself. I think that at least eventual knowledge of Scripture is necessary for that reason, and the letters of Paul and the others are an invaluable guide as well.

But Christians, at least many that call themselves Christians are being led astray every day. I wasted years in churches that taught me nothing about how to study Scripture and live mercifully and lovingly for others, their doctrines and dogmas prevented them from doing what Jesus asked us to. Some were even anti-gospel although this was very subtle. Some were manipulative, and only wanted money and influence over the members. This is why I think that speaking out can help others, if it can help avoid unnecessary pain and wasted time, if it can help them to discover what Jesus Christ wants them to become, to live the Christian life.

God does watch out for us, but not alone. He works through us to help others. God provided me with information through the websites of others so that I became conscious of the deception I had lived in for so many years. I did not know anyone personally that could have informed me about it. He provided me with sound teaching to replace what I had been fed with and had learned to feed myself with. It was not only the false teaching itself, but a wholly different way of looking at Scripture, I had been taught to twist it while reading, taught to deceive myself. That is what false doctrine can do. The Holy Spirit didn't get to me all that time, but did confirm it when I stumbled on the truth.

When I was spiritually abused later (I thought that something like that could never happen to me) God provided me with two wonderful Christian friends that were able to console me and help me back to spiritual health. They hold doctrines that I wouldn't, but looked past what separates us to what unites us. That is Christianity at its best. The pastor that spiritually abused me was unwilling to look past his own doctrine.

I don't speak out against every doctrine, only those that mislead and manipulate people and harm them, those that cause them not to behave as Christians. Such doctrines almost always also distort the gospel, turning church into something that it is not, creating new missions and visions that Jesus never held.

I find Christians in every denomination too, but some are oppressed and have a hard time behaving Christian there because of what surrounds them. I hope that they can be helped as I was, and am trying to work toward that.

There is no church institution I could attend here without making compromises that are too great, so I am starting a bible study with the assistance of the pastor of a church that is too far away for me to attend and the friends that helped me after being spiritually abused. The group will accept all Christians that wish to come, no matter what the denomination or anyone that is interested and open. The only rule is that we are willing to live in peace with one another, learn from one another, and even work together to help each other live what Jesus taught us lovingly, mercifully. We will study together and try to eliminate man-made doctrines that could block Christ shining through us. I hope that it will become a Christian community. I hope that we can be an example of practical Christianity to those around us.

Jesus did speak out against false doctrine where he found it, especially when it distorted the purpose of the
temple (church) and burdened God's people down with unnecessary rules and dogma. From a human perspective, that is what got him killed.

Can you explain to me please what does this expresion mean in English, because I am not sure what you really mean by it. I've seen it in a couple of posts, but I don't really know what does it mean? Does it mean "I understand what you want to say", or something else?

You are not ignorant, I have that problem all the time in Italian. Your English is certainly better than my Italian, you can be proud of yourself. The phrase means - I think that I understand your standpoint, I understand what gave you this idea, I understand what may be motivating you.