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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Dec 20, 2017.

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  1. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    I agree @Albion. The priesthood of believers in not a condemnation of good order, at least as we understand it.
     
  2. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No the affliction has been upon the saints for centuries. The oppression of Lords over the flock who have abusive authority and who exalt themselves over the saints and bring them into bondage and take of them. These are the affliction upon the body of Christ. They draw away disciples after them and they love the prominence over the believers. They smite some on the cheek and speak perverse things. I am speaking of these ones, not the men who are godly but still in the unbiblical role as an exalted man. To these I feel for, because even the most humble man will be in a wrong dominion over others and will be greatly tempted with pride and self importance.

    In scripture we see that ministers had the same feelings about such men and how they hinder the church


    Philippians 3:2 KJV
    "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision."

    2 Corinthians 11:13 KJV
    "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

    Acts 20:30 KJV
    "Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

    3 John 1:9 KJV
    "I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not."

    2 Corinthians 11:20 KJV
    "For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face."

    Galatians 5:12 KJV
    "I would they were even cut off which trouble you."

    Colossians 2:8 KJV
    "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

    2 Timothy 3:13 KJV
    "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."

    Jude 1:10-13,16 KJV
    "10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever...16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage."

    2 John 1:7 KJV
    "For many deceivers are entered into the world"

    2 Peter 2:1 KJV
    "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

    Jeremiah 5:31 KJV
    "The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?"

    Jeremiah 14:14 KJV
    "Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart."

    Matthew 7:15 KJV
    "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

    Matthew 24:11 KJV
    "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

    1 John 4:1 KJV
    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

    Jeremiah 23:32
    "Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord."

    Exodus 3:7 KJV
    "And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;"

    Ezekiel 34:10,11 KJV
    "10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. 11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out."

    Matthew 23:13
    "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

    Matthew 23:14
    "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."

    Matthew 23:15
    "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

    Matthew 23:25
    "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess."

    Matthew 23:27
    "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."

    Luke 11:44
    "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them."

    John 2:15,16 KJV
    "15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise."



    etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
     
  3. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    The priesthood of all believers shows that we all have ministry and function in the body.

    1 Peter 4:10,11, 1 Cor 14_26-38, 1 Cor 12 etc
     
  4. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    God given human authority". Hmmm this is the issue. In the church authority is only in Christ as the head working and flowing through the body and as we speak and live the word of God.

    Human authority is with governments like kings and police etc Romans 13 etc.

    But in the church we are not to be like this

    "25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:"(Matthew 20:25-27 KJV)
     
  5. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Not true. In the Church Christ shares His authority with His twelve Apostles, and these pass varying degrees of the same authority in Christ onto others by the laying on of hands. The Bible firmly illustrates this, yet you go to great lengths to find Scriptures that you can try to use in support of this error of yours: an error that is rooted in your own afflicted soul -- not in Scripture or the Church.

    Consider this following statement, since you quote Scripture that states that leaders in the Church are "servants": They also serve who correctly instruct others in what to do and what not to do, and in how to believe and how not to believe. Christ served in this way, and His Apostles serve in this way, and His bishops, priests, and teachers also serve in this way.
     
  6. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Sure such things happen sometimes. But there is another side of the True Church that your informants (the evil spirits) are keeping you in complete ignorance of and in total darkness about. Yes, did you really think that your all of the imagery, thoughts, and passages of Scripture are coming from yourself alone, and that the enemies of your sanctification in Christ have not had anything to do with weaving such ideas into the fabric of your mind and soul? If you really think so, I wish you would meditate on Ephesians 6:12, and pray "Lord have mercy". The saints are not afflicted by ordained ministers: many of whom are our faithful servants in the Gospel, even a St. Paul was, who called himself "father" of those whom he'd begotten in the Gospel. We are sanctified by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, through faith and repentance. If we're afflicted at all, it is only by demons and sinful desires (passions).
     
  7. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No you miss the point here as in other places.

    I also notice that you will see a verse and take a word or two and define it in the Greek meaning and then try to extend it to the way it was used in the Roman or Greek world etc. This definition of a word does not always give the meaning of how it is used in the text. This is basic stuff, I marvel at how some try hard to escape the clear teaching of scripture and get into all sorts of speculation and wrong understandings. Then they read way to much into it and make the word mean something totally different than it was intended in the text.

    For example Jesus said "destroy this temple", now we know he was speaking about His body as the temple. But if you go do a research on the word temple is has pagan roots but thats not how Jesus was using it. Some however may say well the word "temple" means a "shrine or sacred place" or "a large public building". If a person sticks with the Greek meaning and hebrew, they will not understand what Jesus was saying. If they say Jesus must have been speaking of pagan temples because the root goes back to pagans .

    They will show things like this and say ah ha, there you go temple does not mean the temple of His body because the word means...

    [/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  8. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Sadly it is you that should reconsider what spirits you are listening to, examine the icon of Mary (so called) and baby Jesus ( so called) you have in your profile picture. This is not a christian thing and study the woman and child in history and the roots of this idea.

    "Mother and child worship was the basis of the ancient religions. In the various religions of the world, the same system of worship was perpetuated under different names. In Egypt , the mother and child were worshiped as Isis and Osiris or Horus, in India as Isi and Iswara, in China and Japan as the mother goddess Shing-moo with child, in Greece as Ceres or Irene and Plutus, in Rome as Fortuna and Jupitor-puer, or Venus and Adurnis, and in Scandinavia as Frigga and Balder. The mother and child were worshiped in Babylon as Ishtar and Tammuz, and in Phoenicia, as Ashtoreth and Baal. Moreover, the child was worshiped as both husband and son of the mother goddess."

    Also, some people will do and say anything to uphold their large pagan babylonian temples and their sacred priest roles and forms.

    These things do not get exposed easily.

    It is the devil who can bind up an assembly by controlling one man. It is easier for him to do this than to control an entire body that ministers as they are commanded in scripture to do. This false "clergy and Laity" divide that happened way back, damaged the function of the church and body ministry and made way for Lords to dominate over the flock

    I am not speaking about every pastor or all men in such an unbiblical role as they are in today. But i am speaking about the very function that is set up and the dangers it brings.

    There are many godly men who have taken that modern title of "pastor" that are simply in ignorance about it.
     
  9. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Jesus gave his power to the 12 to cast out devils. But this authority was as they abide in Him and he lives in them and gives them direction and power. It wasn't some title or positional authority. It was flowing from Him as the head.

    One time Jesus was questioned about His authority, they said

    Matthew 21:23
    "And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

    The religious priest and elders did not accept jesus authority. They said they were the authority. Jesus wasn't a earthly king as they knew, or a political leader, or in any authority as they were. Yes Jesus spoke as one having authority. The authority was in His person and word and power.

    This same authority is with those whom he sends. As the father sent Him so he sends us. The authority is in the word of God and our faith and as we live the word. Not in a static role of mans authority.

    The religious leaders of the day would have said the same thing you are saying. They did not recognize Jesus authority. But he had authority from God. They also tried to push their authority on the apostles and told them not to preach in Jesus name any more.

    Paul was an apostle not of men or by men, and he said those who seemed to be somewhat added nothing to him

    "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:"Galatians 1:1 and 2:6 KJV)
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  10. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No, believers are only to listen and be convinced by and persuaded and submit to the word of God. If any speak the word of God and live the word, then they are listened to. The word bears witness in our hearts by the Spirit this is the authority.

    Authority wasn't passed on by laying on of hands. These were men who were recognized and chosen , ordained. But they were already called by God and the body was to know those who laboured among them. The laying on of hands is a prayerful act to pray for spiritual strength and empowering and to agree together for the gift and call on them. Not some positional authority over others.

    The authority that the Gentile rulers had and the dominion over others Jesus clearly said we are not to be under. But this is how the church became very early on and we see this in the Roman Catholic church and other daughters from her. The history is filled with examples of false Lords over the flock.

    If a man who says he is the authority in a positional sense tells any to do anything contrary to the word of God, (in a christian assembly that is) then they do not have to listen or adhere to what he says. His authority is not a positional authority over others in a static office. Authority is fluid and flows from Christ the head to the entire body. (Ephesians 4:15,16). This authority is His power given as we abide in him. Yes some brothers will be more nature and able to rightly divide the word unlike babes who are unskillful in the word of righteousness. But they simply watch over, not Lord over and feed and help the believers.

    Elders plural are the biblical order. Never do we see one man called the pastor over the church as we se today . This form has quenched the spirit in the rest of the body and Christ may be outside knocking at many assemblies wanting to come in and sup with them and to participate with them, but they think all is well.

    Body ministry is clearly shown in scripture and when a lord or exalted man is over the flock and brings them into bondage that should trouble any saints who sees such things as it did Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and others. It troubles me, if it doesn't trouble you then you have drunk the cooled.

    If you are not incensed against the exalted men over the flock and the damage done you are not seeing aright.

    Jim Jones is an extreme case of a one man dominant pastor over others and a possible danger in such a role. We see the Pope in such a wrong role as well in history and others who hurt the believers and hindered body ministry.

    What I speak is written by Paul as well and he says they are the commandments of the Lord. This is not an option (1 Cor 14:26-38 KJV)

    Although I dint agree with Luther on some things I like his words here

    "Unless I am convicted by scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."
     
  11. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    .
     
  12. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    governments, simply means these elders will help to "steer and direct" all into the patient waiting on God and His order. You go off into al sorts of meanings and roots that was not intended for the church.

    The elders help to warn the unruly, and those who do not walk in the rule of faith which is to live in the new creation and speak, live and hear the word of God. It is the Spirit of God that leads into ALL truth, and as believers are led by the Spirit they will be able to function in the body. If not the Spirit of God uses elders and others to help steer and direct into this leading and waiting on the Lord and to obey His order and purpose for them this is what governments implies in the church. Elder/overseers will have spoken the word of God and their faith follow. The word of God is what we hear..

    God's order is shown to the body of Christ and Paul shared this order for the saints and the gatherings. Paul sent Titus to "set in order things that are wanting". This setting in order was God's order, not something that Titus just made up, or his own order. Some taught Paul's ways and order to every church as Paul himself taught the same things everywhere and to every church.

    God's order is His spiritual working in every part of the body as he leads and empowers believers all in all things and gifts and fruit of the spirit and sets the order for assemblies to wait on Him and allow the functioning of the body under Christ headship. He also leads into the patient waiting upon him and his leading.

    All who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. It is God who works in every believer who must let the peace of God rule (govern in Greek, Colossians 3:15,16) in there hearts and to make them perfect unto every good work, working in them that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV)

    John says we have no need that any MAN should teach us (1 John 2:27 KJV), the same anointing teaches us of all things and is truth.

    Yes, God gives different gifts to the body such as a teacher gift. But this gift functions in believers who are led by the head Christ who flows through all the body and from where all edification and authority come (Ephesians 4;15,16 KJV) . So we listen to the new man in Christ, for Christ is the head of the body and when he effectually works in the measure of every part the teaching gift comes forth and all other gifts.

    This is why the one man pastor role today hinders this very function of the church and quenches the body ministry in the spirit by his lording over others and dominance and false authority.
     
  13. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    You're not listening to the Word of God, you're mutilating it by cutting it into pieces and pasting them onto a screen so as to create a picture that represents YOU. You are effectively recreating God's Word in your own image and likeness. But that image is covered in the mud of passionate affliction and so the likeness is not that of a son of God. The screen you're viewing is blocking the Light of Truth that lies beyond it. Repent and pray, and the Holy Spirit of God will help you poke holes in the screen of lies, so that some of His light can shine through, until the screen separating you from God burns up and gives you sight.
     
  14. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The icon in my profile of the Mother of God and Jesus is the Iveron Icon of the Mother of God. Beautifully scented oil (called myrrh) streams supernaturally from the surface of it by the power of the Holy Spirit. The oil is used for anointing the faithful.

    This particular depiction of the Mother of God and the child Jesus was made by the Evangelist Luke, to whom is also attributed the Gospel according to St. Luke and the Book of the Acts of the Apostles. St. Luke showed Mary this icon of her and Jesus, along with some other icons he'd made. She blessed it, and the others, and stated that the grace of her Son (the Lord Jesus) would be upon these holy images.

    These similarities that you see between the Church and that ancient pagan religious myths should come as no surprise. The cross is a pagan symbol before it becomes the instrument of torture and execution that Christ's sacrifice is made on. All symbolic elements of paganism appear in and are transformed into expressions of the Truth in Christianity, because Christ is the fulfillment of all religious cravings for atonement with Heaven, or what we call Salvation. Metaphors pointing to our salvation in Christ have always appeared in mankind's religious striving, misguided as the outcomes of those efforts were. The many instances of Christian symbols appearing all over the world since antiquity is proof that the Orthodox Faith perfectly fulfills mankind's need to be reconciled with God. Those things that the evil spirits are telling you about the Church are lies. They're very good at lying and at getting people to embrace those lies and make them their own. They are especially good at mixing the truth with lies, which makes the lies practically irresistible to anyone afflicted with the invisible and evil passions of pride and vainglory.
     
  15. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    My entire discussion and argument is based on the word of God. I have given so many scriptures that show what I speak and teach.

    It is you I fear that has gone off into the traditions and commandments of men that make the word of God of no effect.

    If you allow a false clergy/laity to exist where you gather then by that man made tradition you make the word of God of noneffect. Here are just some of the many many scriptures that you make of noneffect

    1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11, Colossians 3:15,16, 1 Cor 12:7-, 1 Thess 5:11, Romans 12:1-8, Ephesians 4:11-16

    No I’m am rightly DIVIDING the word of truth
    . It doesn’t help your case to just be a mud slinger at me and have no credible scriptural points.

    What I show represents all believers in the body of Christ. I show how the body is to function under Christ headship and as we are born again after the image of Him that created us.

    You are bound up in an old man made tradition and it is hard for you to see the true church since there is so much tradition of men in your understanding. You probably actually believe that there should be a man exalted over all wearing long robes who is called a priest or pastor over all.

    This is false I let God lead me by His word. Yes His word is against mans commandments and tradition that make the word of noneffect . But I am told to cast down every high thing tat exalts itself against the knowledge of God.

    I have seen many churches gather in homes over the years and done such work for a long time.

    Christ has cleansed me of all such filthiness but if you remember what was said of my Lord Jesus

    Isaiah 53 - 3. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

    And as Paul said about his ministry I feel at times as well ,

    1 Corinthians 4 - 9. For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 10. We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. 13. Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.”

    I am in good company, such a ministry is often misunderstood

    You need to repent
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  16. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Unbelievable, the justification that some will go to justify their error and idolatry and relics etc
     
  17. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    A Quote
    “Not one of the icons attributed to Luke is in a style remotely connected to the 1st century A.D. All are much, much later (and from various later times chronologically). And there is not one bit of scientific analysis dating any one of the number of icons attributed to Luke to the 1st century.

    Where, then, does the notion come from that several icons of Mary were painted by Luke? First of all, it comes from the desire of the later church — after the making and painting of icons had become established practice (which was beyond the period of the earliest Christians) — to retroactively inject the later doctrine of icon making and veneration into earliest Christianity, where there is really no trace of it.

    The notion that Luke painted an icon of Mary, scholars relate, first appeared during the Iconoclast controversy in the 8th century, created by those favoring icon veneration. The earliest mention of icons painted by Luke is found in a work called On the Veneration of Holy Images by Andrew of Crete, who died in the first half of the 8th century — an iconophile writing at the beginning of the iconoclastic controversy. An oft-quoted and supposedly earlier mention in the history by 6th century writer Theodore Anagnostes of an icon painted by Luke and sent from Jerusalem to Pulcheria (Byzantine Empress: died 453) is found in 13th-century manuscripts of the history. But it is absent in earlier manuscripts from the early 11th century. That is a very strong indication that this story of a Marian icon painted by Luke was added much later to the original text. in In a very well-researched book — Icons and Power: the Mother of God in Byzantium (Pennsylvania State University, 2006), Bessera V. Pentcheva writes: “The myth was invented in order to support the legitimacy of icon veneration during the Iconoclast controversy [8th and 9th centuries]. By claiming the existence of a portrait of the Theotokos painted during her lifetime by the evangelist Luke, the perpetrators of this fiction fabricated evidence for the apostolic origins and divine approval of Images”
     
  18. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    There's no doubt I need to repent. Repentance is the very definition of Orthodox Christian spiritual Life, along with Praise and Thanksgiving. But there is not doubt that you're in the grips of false religion, just based upon most of the things you've claimed here. Your informants (the malevolent spirits of the air) have not told you the truth about Orthodox Christians. The fact is (and you can check the statistics for yourself if you decide to) more Orthodox Christians have been tortured and killed on account of Christ than all other Christian groups combined in the world to date. More so in the this and the last century than in all of the Christian centuries preceding them.

    I'm not saying that your own faith is not of any worth. God alone will be the merciful judge of that. But you are clearly misguided in much of your thinking. Hopefully someday God will help you to be able to understand and accept that this has happened to you, so that He will make you more perfect in your faith.
     
  19. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    How dare you say such evil things.

    I say that the church is the body of Christ as give scripture for it. The church has Christ as the head of it and works effectually in every part (Eph 4:15,16)

    You lie here and no lie is of God

    I have tried you and found you are so bound up under falsehood and mans false religious tradition that you cannot see the church
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  20. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    There was never any scientific evaluation performed on the original Iveron Icon. The myrrh streaming depictions we have today are mere copies.
     
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