• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Partial Preterist Non-Pre-Mid-Trib-Post-Trib Rapture Believers Safe House

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by 1disciple, Apr 15, 2013.

  1. Anto9us

    Anto9us The poster formerly known as Habakkuk3

    +1,645
    United States
    Methodist
    Private
    US-Others
    This is not a Safe House -- it's a WAR ZONE.

    I am interested in Partial Preterism, and thought in here I could learn of it without these flames.

    Was I at least PARTIALLY correct?
     
  2. Malcolm Kinsinger

    Malcolm Kinsinger New Member

    6
    +2
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Married
    Who are the two witnesses?
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  3. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

    162
    +85
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    As a Believer who sees that Preterism is the view of orthodox Christians until Darby came along 200 years ago, I still have a question:

    In the Revelation, John prophesies that 'every eye will see him; every one who pierced him,' and the burning question is, did Jesus return? Paul's letters mention that this will happen, but Paul wrote previous to circa Year 60, and it would only make sense that John was saying what would happen during the Great Tribulation which occurred Years 67-73 with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem happening in Year 70, which would fall mid-tribulation. So, did Jesus return as prophesied by Paul, and if so I assume he will come again, though I don't envision it as yet another "Rapture."

    Please help if you can, and thank you.
     
  4. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

    162
    +85
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I really, really like this! I am naturally inclined toward anagogic thought anyway (mystical), and to have missed this really lets me know I have much to learn. Thank you.
     
  5. Anto9us

    Anto9us The poster formerly known as Habakkuk3

    +1,645
    United States
    Methodist
    Private
    US-Others
    I am interested in explanations that 70th week already occurred
     
  6. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

    162
    +85
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The Second Coming is mystical and ongoing, not a literal return in a moment of time. That's my understanding anyway.
     
  7. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

    162
    +85
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Love this safe-house, and thank you! I am sad that so many, mostly Protestants, are Darbyists. I was raised one, but the Holy Spirit began to teach me differently about 35 years ago. Anyway, at least the majority of Believers are "Preterists" meaning Original Christians.
     
  8. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

    +260
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Opps, wrong comment. I'll go ahead and throw a comment at your statement anyway though. Something that might help you out with your understanding. The Greek word for "second" and the Greek word for "coming" do not occur in even the same sentence in the NT. The phrase is made up by people who do not understand that the Lord has physically come to earth many times to oversee great calamites or judgments suffered by nations and peoples. There are all kinds of specific prophecies about nations and peoples in Old Testament times that use the exact same language to describe a great day of judgments long fulfilled many centuries before the NT. Really the only difference the could be pointed out is that now Jehovah the Word of God is the descendant of Abraham, a risen man. Plus the fact of so much NT prophecy dedicated to the end of the Old Covenant age. The other great body of end time prophecy where the Lord comes are the great judgments against the city of Rome for its murder of the saints and then later the end of the age of the four gentile empires.
    I have an article that lists a lot of the times where the Lord came here.
    The Coming Or The Day Of The Lord
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  9. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

    +260
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    This is from my article on end time prophecy.
    End Time Prophecy
    Much information on Daniels seventy sevens (of years) is available from many different sources. Therefore this article will not devote allot of space to it. In short the command to rebuild and restore Jerusalem was given in 457 B.C. by Artaxerxes as recorded in Ezra 7:11-26. In verse 25 it says from the time of that command there will be seven weeks, then sixty-two weeks. Sixty nine weeks in all or 483 years. The Messiah was baptized by John and started his ministry at that point of 483 years. There are 70 weeks or 490 years to this prophecy and as it states the Messiah will be cut off or killed in the middle of the last week, the 70th week or at 486.5 years. His Apostles continued his ministry to Israel for the additional 3 1\2 years. That is the end of the 70th week or 490 years and the time when the governing authorities of Israel officially rejected the messiah and began their persecution of those who followed him. Lets look at the wording concerning the Messiah a little more closely before looking at the verses concerning the end.
    Starting from the last verse and moving backwards:
    27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...., This is exactly what the messiah did. He confirmed the covenant made to Abraham through his own personal ministry to Israel for 3 1\2 years and then through his disciples for an additional 3 1\2 years for a total of one "week." In the middle of that last week he offered himself as "the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." Putting an end (as far as God was concerned) to the ritual sacrifices and oblations of the Law that for thousands of years symbolized his sacrifice.
    We read in verses 25-26:
    25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troubled times.26. And after sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..... The first 7 weeks or 42 years were the time it took to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. At that point the 62 weeks began that ended with Jesus being baptized and beginning his ministry of confirming the covenant made with Abraham. Verse 26 does not make clear the exact time that messiah will be cut off. It only says after 62 weeks. It is verse 27 that does give the exact date, 3 1\2 years after the 62 weeks are fulfilled. i.e. In the middle of the 70th week.
    Back to verse 24:
    Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. At the end of this 490 year time table that has a start date. God accomplished what he promised starting in the very beginning of the book of Genesis and then throughout every other book of the Old Testament. As the palmist quite accurately states concerning the messiah: Psalm 40:7 Then I said, Look, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me....,
    That could be termed the good news part of this prophecy, which now leaves us to look at the bad news part. In chap. 9:26-27 the angel gives Daniel the interpretation of his third vision from chap. 8:17-19 that states. 17....Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall the vision be.....19. And he said, look, I will make you understand what shall be in the final period of wrath: for at the time appointed the end shall be. Remember this verse has already declared by the angel to refer to time period near the end of the Greek Empire and the "little horn" that came out of one of the "four horns" of Alexander's empire. The little horn being Antiochus IV Epiphanies. This is called final season of "wrath" before the appointed end that has a fixed date. So chap. 9:26-27 then spells out what exactly this bad news is that has a fixed date referred to as an end: 26:.....and the people of the prince that shall come and shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end of it shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined. 27:.... and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. So this particular end is referring to the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary by way of war. This happens after the 70 weeks are fulfilled, after the messiah comes and the covenant is confirmed and sealed. None of these prophecies declare the exact day of this war and destruction. They do however say clearly state that it is within this particular time period of this final season of wrath.
    As it can be seen so far this prophecy about the end is beginning to look quite specific in it's nature. There will be much more prophecy about this particular "end time" that give it a specific date; every bit as specific as any other date already given by the Bible itself. As a hint though as to where this article will end up. This is not the only "end" prophesied about in the Bible. As you can perhaps notice the end of this era related to this destruction of Jerusalem doesn't address the end of these four empires as told in Daniels 2nd vision chap. 7:6. But the court will sit, and they shall take away his empire, to consume and to destroy it until the end. 27. And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him. So it can be seen that there is the beginning of things and time periods and the end of things and time periods in the Bible. It will be also seen that the Bible itself interprets these things and time periods and everything outside of the Bibles own interpretations are the mere speculations of temporal and fallible men.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  10. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

    162
    +85
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    And the really sad thing is that the majority of the Church, past and present, are "Preterists." What I mean is that Darbyists are in the severe minority. I was raised one. Most Protestants are, but the official line of the Roman Catholic church is essentially "preterism," and I assume the Orthodox church as well--sorry I don't know for sure, especially since I was an Orthodox convert and monk once upon a time.
     
  11. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

    +260
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I wouldn't say Darbyists are the sever minority since their message can be heard over the entire earths airwaves 24\7. The message sells and ignorance is its currency.
     
  12. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

    162
    +85
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I guess I mean actual physical minority along the entire timeline of the Church. It's true that contentiousness is always louder and far more grating :)
     
  13. Malcolm Kinsinger

    Malcolm Kinsinger New Member

    6
    +2
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Married
    We have to define what coming means when we determine if Jesus came in 70 AD to Jerusalem. In John 14:3 Jesus says "And if I go and prepare a place for your I will come again." Here come means that when a Christian dies, Jesus comes to him to take him to heaven. John 14:18 says I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you" Here Jesus is referring to Pentecost when the Holy Spirit falls on the disciples. In John 14:23 Jesus says, "If any one love Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him and We will come to him and will make our abode with him." Here Jesus is referring to Him coming when a persons becomes a Christian the Holy Spirit come to him and lives in him. In John 14:28 Jesus says, "You heard that I said to you, I go away and I will come to you, If you loved Me you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I." Here is Jesus is speaking of His return after the resurrection to the disciples. So coming can mean many different arrivals in the Bible not necessarily the final coming of Christ when He raises Christians on the last day of this age. Matthew 10:23 says, "But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes." This coming cannot be the final coming of Christ because it had to occur before the disciples finished going through the nation of Israel which would have been in their life time. This coming is the coming of Christ in judgment to the land of Israel as He predicted in Matthew 22:7 "But the king was enraged and sent his armies and destroyed those murderers, and set their city on fire." The king is the current king of the world, Jesus, who sent his armies, General Titus and the Roman army, to destroy Jerusalem and burn it.

    The verse you quote concerning every eye will see him is Revelation 1:7, "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him." One way to understand this prophesy is to look at the writing of the historian, Josephus. Josephus reported that respectable people during the siege of Jerusalem saw armies in the clouds. Since these images were in the sky every eye in Jerusalem would see them including those were who still alive who had either physically killed Jesus or gave active support for doing so. Remember that the Book of Revelation is written to the 7 churches in now Turkey but for our benefit. The word ge in the Revelation in many Bibles is translated earth but it can also me land alluding the land of Israel. The word sea in Revelation is not necessarily referring to ocean but the Sea of Galilee.
     
  14. Malcolm Kinsinger

    Malcolm Kinsinger New Member

    6
    +2
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Married
    When I meet a Catholic, I tell them that they believe that the church will bring the world into submission to Jesus Christ. All that I have talked to agree. Then I tell them that many protestants do not believe that. The Darbyists have control of the radio broadcast either from Dallas Theological Seminary or from Moody Bible Istitute.
     
  15. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

    162
    +85
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Thank you so much :)
     
  16. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

    +260
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I know that the Roman Catholic church is primarily Ah-millennialist or "partial preterists." I hope some of the other Catholics are too. Evangelical\Pentecostal's now or very soon will make up a majority of the worlds Christians. As a group they certainly make up most of the worlds true Christians. (Sorry if that offends anyone, there is no such thing as a group, sect or institution who's members are all real heaven bound Christians. Some have few real Christians some have many.) I think someone would be hard pressed to find but a few of the Evangelical \Pentecostal crowd that do not believe in some variant of the pop culture end time teachings so prevalent on the airwaves. I think the last famous Ah-millennialist was James Kennedy a Presbyterian. That denomination was instrumental in founding the free world and was wholly Ah-Millennialist but today has mostly apostatized. Even then Ah-millennialists still believe in a coming future physical Kingdom on earth which I completely disagree with. They just understand that Revelation chapter 20 was using illustrations to prophesy what they were living out.
     
  17. Anto9us

    Anto9us The poster formerly known as Habakkuk3

    +1,645
    United States
    Methodist
    Private
    US-Others
    Since I am 'safe' in here, I will explain my take on "what Christians have believed eschatologically throughout the church's history".

    I think the early centuries up until Augustine had a lot of Chiliasm -- aka historic pre-millennialism (though nothing specifically 'pre-trib').

    Augustine got Amillenialism to be the top dog eschatology - Amillenialsim and Historicism both co-dominated eschatology til after the Reformation. During the Reformation, the Reformers like Luther painted the Pope as AntiChrist -- this was Historicism.

    The RCC allegedly wanted to deflect the idea of the Pope being AntiChrist (naturally), and supposedly launched two completely different eschatologies to compete with Historicism. Futurism and Preterism both have had postulated as their 'origins' this RCC attempt to "get the Pope off the hook".

    Amillenialism as a specific addressing of the one item of a non-literal 1000 year reign can be blended in to Historicism, Preterism, or Futurism... Amillennialism can mean everything and nothing

    Futurism takes off in a new direction in early 1800's with Darby and Pre-Trib as we know it, iow, a "two-stage coming" of Christ's return -- it is popularized by Scofield's Study Bible -- and the Dispensationalists are off and running, and in the 1970's here comes Hal Lindsay's LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH
     
  18. Anto9us

    Anto9us The poster formerly known as Habakkuk3

    +1,645
    United States
    Methodist
    Private
    US-Others
    That's where I come in as a college student recently saved, bought into Hal Lindsay hook line and sinker.

    PreTrib all the way, til I saw PRE-WRATH by Rosenthal and liked it, was into that for a while...

    Was on a message-board with Ellis Skolfield in 2000 and fell for his weird stuff for a while, went back to Rapture Ready Board and pre-trib (it was a message board back then, not what it is now)

    Four years ago I read Gentry's BEFORE JERUSALEM FELL -- joined CF then with at least one barrier to Preterism permeable -- I was ready to accept an early date for the writing of Revelation.

    Came to CF, was confronted with the "No Full Preterism allowed" stuff, and eventually became sympathetic to Preterism in general - I have to admit I still don't clearly see difference between Fulls and Partials.

    Most recently I am convinced that Daniel's 70 weeks were all over with at Stephen's Stoning.

    The post before this one describes how I see the church's views of endtimes thru history, this one here describes my own personal journeys towards an eschatological understanding -- I guess I am at a Neanderthal stage of partial preterism
     
  19. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

    +260
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    My story has a couple similarities to yours. As a non Christian teen I read Daniel and Revelation and saw the Late Great Planet Earth at the movies. So apocalyptism was my default position. Became a believer in 1982 and a vociferous Bible student, but not a vociferous read commentaries about the Bible student. In fact I found them so boring and wrong headed, (it seemed to me) that I didn't read anything along the lines of theology or commentaries. So I only heard preached the common pop culture end time teaching like Hall Lindsey's book. Never heard the word preterist, pre millennialist etc etc. Come 1986 I decided I needed to study the end times since I thought I was called to teach. By that time I had the New Testament memorized and could finish any verse quoted to me from the Bible. I found I just couldn't honestly or rationally fit much I had ever heard about the end times into the scriptures. So I just decided I could not understand it and would just avoid the subject.
    Besides my studies and listening to the Bible on tape every day. I developed a very edifying a habit of taking about an hour a day reading aloud certain chapters. Many of them from Isaiah. I had them memorized so I could just repeat them every day as part of my devotions. Well I got married, that changed the amount of time I could spend on this stuff. At that time we were going to a church where there was quite a supernatural revival going on. I kid you not, miracles, and they prophesied the next two decades just exactly as it happened in the USA. When we moved to CA the week after at a camp meeting. The main pastor prophesied how God was going to open up the book of Revelation to his people. I really took notice of that not because I cared one little bit about understanding that book. I only knew it didn't teach what everyone said. I took notice of the power behind that prophecy. Well we moved to CA and then came back a year later. Our first night there, in sleeping bags on our friends living room floor, I swear this is the truth. An angel walked into that room. Knew it couldn't see it and the Holy Spirit opened the book of Revelation up to us. How you might ask. Did he tell you things to come? Did he show you the end times were about to happen? LOL. NO! He compared scripture to scripture. not a word outside of scripture. Opened my mind to the fact that all those things I had been quoting every day for years were the same things in Revelation 21-22. Just dropped the whole subject of Bible prophecy right down into our spirits to be properly sorted out in the next few years.

    Not something I asked for, not something I wanted or sought for. Has caused me a world of trouble because it is contrary to all men just about. It is neither pre, mid, post, ah, or preter. Although all of those things obviously have some truth to them. I call it scriptualism. If the Bible doesn't interpret it, it not interpretable to human beings. If the Holy Spirit reveal's Bible prophecy he will reveal by showing someone where in the Bible i interprets its own prophecy. The only exception to that rule is if something uninterpreted in the Bible lies within the context of something already interpreted . That way at least you have an idea where to look.

    That was a long way to say this. About your statement where you don't see a difference between partial and full preterists. One would think they have the same goals but what I have found is they do not. When I try to show full preterists that there are two bodies of end time prophecy in the Bible. One about the Old Covenant age 70 AD; then another about the end of the age of the four gentile empires. They flip out. One would think, since the goal ( at least it should be the goal or the preterists) is to focus then on all the prophecies about the age that was to come after the age of the four gentile empires. Then it would be no big deal to differentiate between the two bodies of end time prophecy since they both came to pass exactly like they said and when the said. Not the case though and so vociferous is the objection to that; that I think preterism as a doctrine is based in a sectarian spirit. Which is why I avoid the tag completely.

    We are living in the age that was to occur after the fall of the fourth empire 1453 AD. It has its own body of prophecy that is greater in volume than the end time prophecies of the last two ages. That body of prophecy needs to be the focus of our faith and works. Since we are also now 600 years into this age it is easy to look back over it and compare it to the ages that came before and see the difference. It's easy to see what has been and will continue to come to pass even with the all the opposition against it. Which is illustrated by the prophecies of Gog and Magog, (who lose!) If you'll notice. the Holy Roman Empire, Napoleon, the British Empire, The German empire, the NAZi's, the Imperial Japanese, the Communists have all attempted to take over the world but were defeated at the hands of the nations most influenced by the Bible and the Gospel. Nothing like it was before that fourth empire fell. Where the bad guys always won. These are what the prophetic illustrations of Gog and Magog are about. The nations and peoples that oppose the growth of the invisible Government of God. The international left and their new allies the Muslim Brotherhood types that are now arising against the growth of that Government of God. Which is a government of influence in the earth that people voluntarily follow. Will also in their end be defeated by those who are most influenced by the Bible and their allies who want freedom.
    You want a prediction from me about the future here is one for you. The lands of Mohamed will be tamed by the Word of God, the Gospel and the Government of God just like our lands are being tamed. Shoot one day we will wake up to an internet headline. "China declares itself a Christian nation." (How is that for a prediction based on history, not a prophecy.) Imagine the trouble those are in who are saying, "we are like grasshoppers before their eyes" Or, "it is written the world will grow worse and worse;" when historically since Christ came it grows better and better! ( Especially since the Bible started getting into the hands of the general public right when that fourth empire fell.) If you want to read anything I have written about this. Here are three easy chapters from Isaiah about the New Jerusalem. These are part of that great body of prophecy I am talking about that pertains to this age.
    The Bride of Christ
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Anto9us

    Anto9us The poster formerly known as Habakkuk3

    +1,645
    United States
    Methodist
    Private
    US-Others
    Wow daniel, thanks. It will take me a while to absorb the Isaiah stuff I'm sure.

    I too would like to have "no eschatological label whatsoever" -- but partial preterist might do for now
     
Loading...