• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Partial Preterist Non-Pre-Mid-Trib-Post-Trib Rapture Believers Safe House

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by 1disciple, Apr 15, 2013.

  1. parousia70

    parousia70 Goin' where the Wind don't blow so strange Supporter

    +1,606
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Can you cite any scripture that teaches this, or is this just your opinion?
    And again, Tell us when Matthew 21:33-45 happened please.
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 Goin' where the Wind don't blow so strange Supporter

    +1,606
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    He has an audio series called "The End" where he does an exhaustive, verse by verse commentary of the Revelation, which was instrumental in MY Christian conversion, as well as my acceptance of the truth of past fulfillment of Biblical eschatology.
     
  3. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

    +204
    Non-Denom
    Private
    US-Democrat
    Kingdom of God in heaven JLB. The Kingdom of God on earth is represented by the Church.
     
  4. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

    +204
    Non-Denom
    Private
    US-Democrat
    Will the second coming of Christ entail a 5'5"-7" Jewish man (common male height of the time) appearing in the skies above Jerusalem that every man, woman, and child will witness across the whole globe in every city and village?

    Or did Jesus mean something else? How long did the disciples stare stedfastly into the clouds and empty skies in Acts 1:10? 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour or longer? The text only states stedfastly.

    Please remember that Jesus ministered on earth during the Last Days - Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20

    And He shed His blood and died for us on earth at the End of the Age - Hebrews 9:26

    Were these the Last Days of the material universe? Or the Last Days of the Mosaic Covenant? Was this at the end of the world? Or the end of the Jewish Age?

    Have the Last Days run for nearly 2,000 years now? Has the End of the Age run for nearly 2,000 years now?

    Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but desire fulfilled is a tree of life.

    Seeing the Son of Man

    Those who pierced Jesus lived in the first century. This helps explain Revelation 1:7 where the same wording is used. Those who "see" Him are "those who pierced Him" (cf John 19:7). John is telling us that those who pierced Jesus experienced His covenant wrath. Revelation 1:7 must refer to a pre-A.D. 70 fulfillment, before that generation passed away (Matthew 16:27-28; 24:34).

    "Every eye, and those who pierced Him, shall see him" - The subject of the text is "the people of the land," viz. Judea; and it would be a direct misinterpretation, as well as false logic, to strain a term beyond its subject, by applying it to the final judgment of all. That all men shall see Him, we learn from other scriptures (2 Cor. V. 10); [the partial preterist writer of this piece has misinterpreted himself - see Hebrews 9:27] but we must deal faithfully with the text, and not force any word in order to make out a case. Truth never requires this. That the land of Judea, in the prophetic sense, is the subject, is evident from Zech. XII. 10; from which the words are taken, both here and in John XIX. 37.


    "Those who pierced Him" are obviously those who had a hand in His death. The text declares that they shall see Him, employing for seeing the verb optomai, already noticed, as not limited to ocular seeing. Though those who pierced Him saw not His person after ascension, yet they saw His power bringing judgment on them, and making His cause prevail inspite of their persecution, and they speedily saw their kingdom terminated.

    James Glasgow (1872)

    Equating "seeing" with "understanding" is a common Biblical metaphor. In John 12:40 Jesus quotes Isaiah 6:10 to explain why some have not believed His message. Notice how "seeing" is equivalent to "understanding."

    "Render the hearts of the people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and repent and be healed." Isaiah 6:10

    In quoting Isaiah, Jesus states Yahweh "has blinded their eyes" (John 12:40). This is not a physical blinding. The blinding is spiritual. To be blind is not to understand; to see is to understand and believe. "To open their eyes" is an expression used by Biblical writers to describe recognition and understanding (Acts of the Apostles 26:18 cf 1 Kings 8:29, 1 Kings 8:52; 2 Kings 2:16; 2 Kings 6:20; 2 Kings 19:16; Isaiah 35:5; Isaiah 42:7; Isaiah 42:16). The eyes of the disciples "were opened" by Jesus and "they recognized Him." (Luke 24:31) is another example of equating "seeing" with "understanding." David Chilton summarizes the text for us: "The crucifiers would see Him coming in judgment - that is, they would understand that His coming would mean wrath on the land (cf the use of the word "see" in Mark 1:44; Luke 17:22; John 3:36; Romans 15:21)."

    David Chilton, Days of Vengeance

    "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky, to the other." Matthew 24:31

    Immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem, God began to shake down the world (Matthew 24:29). The nations began to recognize Christ as King (24:30). In context, in verse 31 does not refer to the end of the world. Rather, it speaks of the spread of the Gospel in the nations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  5. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

    +204
    Non-Denom
    Private
    US-Democrat
    The Importance Of the Typology of the Day Of Atonement In Relation To The Second Coming Of Christ And The Resurrection

     
  6. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    +546
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Those who practice teaching heresy, will not inherit the Kingdom of God: which is a reference to being cast into hell with the devil and his angels.

    That is what "will not inherit the kingdom" of God means.

    Preterism is Heresy.



    JLB
     
  7. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    +546
    Non-Denom
    Married
    34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36


    As long as people marry, and they still die, it is called "this age".

    The age to come, or "that age" is defined by those who attain to the resurrection of the dead, who neither marry nor do they die.

    These who attain the resurrection of the dead, are called sons of God and have become equal to the angels... being sons of the resurrection.

    Do people still die here on earth?
    Do people still marry here on earth?

    The answer to both is yes.

    It is still called "this age", and will continue to be called "this age" until the coming of the Lord and the resurrection/rapture.



    JLB
     
  8. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

    +204
    Non-Denom
    Private
    US-Democrat
    Here is more from Don K Preston:


     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  9. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

    +204
    Non-Denom
    Private
    US-Democrat

    When did the angel tell Daniel all things would be finished including the resurrection in Daniel 12:7?

    When did Jesus say all things would be fulfilled in Matthew 24:34 and Luke 21:22 & Luke 21:32?

    When did Jesus say His Coming would be in Matthew 16:27-28?
     
  10. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

    +204
    Non-Denom
    Private
    US-Democrat
    Here is more from Don K Preston:


    Isn't the eschatological and soteriological study of the Day of Atonement and its fulfillment in Christ absolutely fascinating and absorbing from a covenant eschatology stand point? There is way too much scriptural harmony in it all. It harmonizes all scripture!
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  11. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

    +204
    Non-Denom
    Private
    US-Democrat
    DANIEL 9 AND HEBREWS 9 COMPARISION BY DON K PRESTON

     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 Goin' where the Wind don't blow so strange Supporter

    +1,606
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others

    And Matthew 21:33-45?
    When do you say that happened please.
     
  13. Aijalon

    Aijalon Sayin' it like it is

    967
    +53
    Protestant
    Married
    Being as I no longer really fit into either the Pre or Post trib camps... I thought I would add a post, haven't been on here in a while.

    So mainly the reasons I fit neither is:
    1. The Great Tribulation has been ongoing since 70AD (and we are still in it)
    2. The descriptions of the Great Tribulation are not of literal events, rather they are spiritual events. (for example the smoke blocking the sun in Rev 9 is a cloud of lies obscuring the ture Gospel, and the demon horsemen are elders supported by false teachers spreading poisonous lies)
    I suspect we are right at the cusp of the end of the world, well along into the trumpets phase of things, so in that sense I believe we are nearing the end of the Great Tribulation. The Seals have been unleashed (geopolitical carnage on earth) and now we are in the 7th seal (7 trumps) time frame.

    As I have arrived where I'm at it has been the case that I have shifted from mainly a futurist perspective to a historicist. As far as that goes, the Abomination of Desolation question is the main thing to understand, being as Matthew 24 states clearly that we should read and understand Daniel.

    When the AOD is correctly placed as a historical event, then we can correctly move forward with our understanding of end time events. (Most PreTrib and PostTrib tend to agree that the AOD is a future event, from my experience)

    As a historicist then, it is not hard to understand that Jesus defined the AOD in immediate future for the 70 AD generation.

    **

    Yes, the Generation Jesus spoke to in Matthew 24:34 must be that Generation for this simple reason: it is preposterous and confusing to think otherwise.

    Preposterous because if you say Jesus wasn't speaking to the generation before his eyes, how can they have understood what he was teaching? When he said "you shall see" the AOD.... who was he speaking to if not them? We are given no indication he spoke to people not present. Or else was Jesus speaking to them in a riddle? The text would tell if he were, and it does not. It would be purely confusion to try to make them only think they (30-70 AD) were the generation he spoke of

    It seems to me that you and many support this fallacy that Jesus spoke toward a future generation in that verse because they have too many problems resolving when and where each of the "events" supposedly happened, and so they take an intellectually dishonest step and shoot it all forward.

    The word "this" is to mean "this one" - there is simply no way around it. The people who heard Jesus had no other way of understanding what he was saying except that he meant THEM.

    What the audience then heard and believed is of supreme importance here, as is the case with all of the Scriptures in order to frame a correct context. It's a fundamental principle of scriptural interpretation to look at the text from the perspective of a person in 33AD.

    I've been in your camp in the past, I used to argue for this too, I actually did. Problem is, I could not shake the text off. It says THIS GENERATION. At what point did Jesus indicate any other generation? He didn't. It is just fundamental reading.

    And not to lose track of the main point.....You have no evidence that the Gospel witness has NOT reached all nations. Since every nation, state, county, province, and city on earth has heard the gospel (not necessarily received it gladly) it is quite a task to go about proving that every neighborhood has never had a gospel witness. The Gospel reaching all nations is a sure thing, it will take care of itself, underground if necessary, we have no duty or need to double check, and every reason to think this has already happened.

    In review:

    The disciples asked two questions:

    A. When was the destruction of the temple
    B. What is the sign of his coming and end of the age
    (begs the need for a nuanced answer, given that they didn't know his coming was actually so far away)

    Jesus responded with:
    1. A summary of the GT (v4) {the section in the OP}
    1.a A warning to flee Judea (v15)
    1.b A warning to the world (v21-29)
    1.c foretelling of second coming/rapture (v30)​
    2. Lesson 1: fig tree prophesied to "this generation" - ref 1.a (note the prophetic nature of the fig tree from previous). (v34)
    3. Lesson 2: thief in the night prophesied, end of the world foretold - ref 1.b-c (v36).

    Section 1 is an overview heading, it is further explained in a,b,c and the final parts are application - a final section explaining in more discreet terms the second coming and the conditions on earth at that hour. It's a teaching lesson, not just a list.


    In conclusion:
    To identify the correct generation Jesus is speaking about, we must determine what is the AOD. This is the ONLY way to know what is going on and it is expressly instructed that we read and understand Daniel 8 and 9. If we don't we will go off course.

    Daniel 8 and 9 are a continuous prophecy. Therefore to understand the AOD, one MUST MUST MUST correctly identify:

    The Ram
    The he-goat
    The little horn
    The little horn's actions
    The 2300 evenings/mornings
    The start and end of the 7 weeks
    The start and end of the of the 62 weeks
    The start/end of the half week.
    (The timeline of the reconstructed walls and prestige of Jerusalem :note:)
    The prince of the people "who come"
    The significant covenant (erroneously called the covenant with "many")

    Because there is so much speculative futurism forced on the text of Daniel 9:24-27, it can be hard to roll back all that and look objectively at what the AOD is (what it was)
     
  14. UN161

    UN161 New Member

    23
    +7
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Is there not many people with this belief in here?
     
  15. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    +546
    Non-Denom
    Married

    The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years, and begins in the middle of the 70th week.



    JLB
     
  16. Malcolm Kinsinger

    Malcolm Kinsinger New Member

    6
    +2
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Married
     
  17. Malcolm Kinsinger

    Malcolm Kinsinger New Member

    6
    +2
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Married
    I agree with all that you have said about partial preterism. This is my view because I believe God accomplishes His will working through people. He has the power to make all of His enemies a footstool for His feet but He is using men to do that. So Jesus comes when all things are in order not chaos.
     
  18. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

    +3,559
    United Kingdom
    Catholic
    Divorced
    I too think that most of Revelations has been and gone.
     
  19. Malcolm Kinsinger

    Malcolm Kinsinger New Member

    6
    +2
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Married
    I am glad you agree that most of the book of Revelation has been fulfilled. From your agreement ensues that the world is getting better and the church will bring the world into submission to Jesus Christ in this age. I trust you also believe in the inerrancy of scripture.
     
  20. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

    +198
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Although I think the partial preterist label is ill-advised. Not trying to be offensive. There is just so much baggage attached to "preterism" as a doctrine rather than just a word with a meaning that I would never use it to describe myself. Anyway; I am continually all over the internet using this language:
    There are two distinct bodies of end time prophecy that were completely fulfilled after the NT was written. Both bodies name the who, what, when, and why. One was the end of the Old covenant age, 70 AD. The other was the end of the age of the four gentile empires, Babylonian, Medo\Persian, Greek and Roman. In case you didn't know it the capitol of the Roman empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD and there never ceased to be an emperor on the thrown until 1453 AD when it was conquered by the Ottoman Turks.
    Then there is another far larger body of prophecy than the two bodies of end time prophecy about the age that would follow the age of the four gentile empires. 100+ chapters worth of an age of promise. An age when all the earthly promises made to a thousand generations of saints that went unfulfilled in their generations began to slowly but surely come to pass in nations that meet the condition's.
    I actually have thousands of pages written about all this on the internet. Anyway I guess I'd like to see what you have to say.
     
Loading...