The Parousia of Antichrist

[Douggg]

Simply because Daniel's account does not include the military activities of the kings does not invalidate their identities.

I've explained previously how they were "out of", i.e. "from", the Roman empire.

The ten kings you listed, the barbarians, each attempted to destroy the fourth kingdom. That eliminates them being of the fourth kingdom.

The ten horns in Revelation 17 are aligned with the beast. They hand their kingdom over to him.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

 

[jgr]

The ten kings you listed, the barbarians, each attempted to destroy the fourth kingdom. That eliminates them being of the fourth kingdom.

Doesn't eliminate them at all.

I've explained previously how they were "out of", i.e. "from", the Roman empire.

 

[Douggg]

Doesn't eliminate them at all.

I've explained previously how they were "out of", i.e. "from", the Roman empire.

Those barbarian factions were controlled by the Roman Empire. They were not ten kings of the Roman Empire.

The barbarian factions attempted to destroy the Roman Empire.

The ten kings in Daniel 7 do not attempt to destroy the fourth kingdom.

 

[jgr]

Those barbarian factions were controlled by the Roman Empire. They were not ten kings of the Roman Empire.

The barbarian factions attempted to destroy the Roman Empire.

The ten kings in Daniel 7 do not attempt to destroy the fourth kingdom.

They were not controlled by the Roman empire, otherwise they would not have attacked the Roman empire.

They were ten historically verifiable and identifiable independent kings and their kingdoms, as I've shown previously, consistent with the historical record.

Daniel 7 includes nothing about their military campaigns against the Roman empire. There is not the slightest suggestion that “The ten kings in Daniel 7 do not attempt to destroy the fourth kingdom.”

I've explained previously how they were "out of", i.e. "from", the Roman empire.

All consistent with Daniel's descriptions.

 

[Douggg]

They were not controlled by the Roman empire, otherwise they would not have attacked the Roman empire.

They were subjected to Roman rule, which they rebelled against and fought against. Those barbarian kings did not emerge out of the Roman kingdom. Why do think they were called barbarians and not Romans?

I've explained previously how they were "out of", i.e. "from", the Roman empire.

By your logic the Jews, Israel, were out of, from the Roman Empire. The Jews, Israel, were subjected to Roman rule. They did not emerge out of the Roman Empire.

The ten kings in Daniel 7 emerge out of the fourth kingdom, i.e. the Roman kingdom.

 

[Chi.C]

2 Thessalonians 2:9 has the coming <#3952> or Parousia of the lawless one with power, signs, and lying wonders.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV has “in them that perish” and YLT also has “in those perishing”. The word “in” is Strong’s #1722 en.

1 John 4:3 indicates that Antichrist is a spirit and 1 John 2:18 states that there were many Antichrists at that time. These verses would seem to allow for the Parousia of Antichrist to happen, in spirit form, inside those that perish.

1 John 2:18 indicates many antichrists. Not one single big A Antichrist.
1 John 2:22 indicates what is an antichrist.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 are just warnings to be vigilant against antichrists.

The AntiChrist - Christian, Al-Dajjal - muslim, Armilus - jewish false messiah myths all came in around the Middle ages. They are not Scriptural. They are phenomenons similar to our modern anthropic global warming and evolutionary theory. They are ideas that cannot be falsified or verified but serves to unite the restive population. Scary in scope but baseless.

 

[Douggg]

1 John 2:18 indicates many antichrists. Not one single big A Antichrist.
1 John 2:22 indicates what is an antichrist.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 are just warnings to be vigilant against antichrists.

The AntiChrist - Christian, Al-Dajjal - muslim, Armilus - jewish false messiah myths all came in around the Middle ages. They are not Scriptural. They are phenomenons similar to our modern anthropic global warming and evolutionary theory. They are ideas that cannot be falsified or verified but serves to unite the restive population. Scary in scope but baseless.

The Antichrist will be one single person. In 1John2:18, John likened them in his day who were leaving Christianity, denying that Jesus is the Son of God, as "antichrists". Not that they were "antichrist who shall come", the singular person that them John was speaking to were already aware that person is coming.

What makes the Antichrist unique is that he will be anointed the King of Israel messiah. That is actually when the person becomes the Antichrist.

little horn>Antichrist>beast

 

[jgr]

They were subjected to Roman rule, which they rebelled against and fought against. Those barbarian kings did not emerge out of the Roman kingdom. Why do think they were called barbarians and not Romans?


By your logic the Jews, Israel, were out of, from the Roman Empire. The Jews, Israel, were subjected to Roman rule. They did not emerge out of the Roman Empire.

The ten kings in Daniel 7 emerge out of the fourth kingdom, i.e. the Roman kingdom.

From a credentialed medievalist:

"The great invasions were not a war of the barbarians to defeat and subjugate the Roman Empire. Rather, the Germans sought to become part of the Empire and were fighting for concessions, in the form of land or money. The Roman Empire . . . became a sort of vacuum into which the Germans pushed their way. They came as settlers, as allies. . . . They did not defeat the Roman Empire in one cataclysmic battle; instead, they permeated the Roman world over the course of three centuries and transformed the fundamental nature of Roman civilization." Norman Cantor, Western Civilization: Its Genesis and Destiny, Vol. I, p. 243.

It is entirely accurate to understand that the ten kings arose out of the Roman Empire into which the barbarians had for three centuries been integrating and assimilating.

 

[Chi.C]

The Antichrist will be one single person. In 1John2:18, John likened them in his day who were leaving Christianity, denying that Jesus is the Son of God, as "antichrists". Not that they were "antichrist who shall come", the singular person that them John was speaking to were already aware that person is coming.

What makes the Antichrist unique is that he will be anointed the King of Israel messiah. That is actually when the person becomes the Antichrist.

little horn>Antichrist>beast

I was looking at your chart of #29. Maybe @grafted branch covered it, but
The 4th beast of Daniel the Roman Empire and the beast of #29 (I assume is of Revelation) is the EU? What of the Beast from the earth?
Is the times, time and half = 3.5 years or 1260 years? When was this time period in history?
1 John 2:18 prophesies the Antichrist?

 

[Douggg]

The 4th beast of Daniel the Roman Empire and the beast of #29 (I assume is of Revelation) is the EU?

The EU is the Roman Empire of the end times. It is the kingdom of the beast, represented by the beast coming out of the sea. I have another pictorial (below) with the EU flag on it that represents the kingdom. Basically with 42 months left in the 7 years, the EU will have gained control of all the geographical area once held by the three historical kingdoms of Daniel 7's beasts. i.e the EU (and it's western allies of the United States and Canada) will be controlling all the oil.

While on my chart in post #29, the little horn>Antichrist>beast in the shades of brown is referring to the person.

In Revelation 13, the one head, which was mortally wounded but healed, is the person called the beast. I have pictorial I made of that beast below. I put the ten horns on that one head, because those horns (kings) are associated with the beast person.

What of the Beast from the earth?
Is the times, time and half = 3.5 years or 1260 years? When was this time period in history?
1 John 2:18 prophesies the Antichrist?

The beast from the earth is the false prophet. The earth represents Israel. While the sea represents the nations.

The false prophet does miracles, one of which is making fire come down from heaven - like Elijah the prophet did. We are not told anything about the false prophet prior to the 42 months. But we have knowledge that the Jews are looking for Elijah to prepare the nation for the messianic era. Also the Jews believe that the messiah will be anointed by a known prophet.

So putting that information together, it seems that the false prophet early on before the 7 year 70th week begins, when he emerges will claim to be Elijah and will anoint the little horn person coming into the middle east and Israel (on the premise of securing peace in the region), with his EU army in the aftermath of Gog/Magog, will anoint the person the King of Israel.

Anointed as the King of Israel, that's what actually makes the little horn>Antichrist>beast person the Antichrist. And the Jews, and the world, will think it has entered the messianic age, saying peace and safety. Which is on my chart below.

The time/times/half time is not 1260 years. It is actually not "exactly" 1260 days either. I have a video, I made below explaining the timeframes....

 

[Douggg]

Is the times, time and half = 3.5 years or 1260 years? When was this time period in history?
1 John 2:18 prophesies the Antichrist?

The time/times/half time is still future of us, but not in the distant future because we are living in the parable of the fig tree generation.

1John2:18 confirms that them in John's day were already aware that the Jews would embrace another person who will be anointed the King of Israel, instead of Jesus, who that person will come in his own name - i.e. someone who God did not send to be their King of Israel.

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Some people take that verse to argue that there is not a single "the Antichrist" person. But they are misunderstanding what John meant by there even now there are many antichrists.

What John was referring to is that there were some who had departed Christianity, and were denying that Jesus is the Son of God, exihibiting the same trait that the coming Antichrist will do. So John called those persons antichrists, likening them to the coming Antichrist.

An example of a modern antichrist is Yusuf Estes, on You Tube, a Christian pastor who left Christianity to become a Muslim, denying that Jesus is God come into this world, taking on the body of a human, and dying on the cross for the sins of mankind. Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the cross. What they believe is that God blinded everyone to put someone else on the cross instead of Jesus...and took Jesus to heaven.

 

[jgr]

The 4th beast of Daniel the Roman Empire and the beast of #29 (I assume is of Revelation) is the EU?

Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Historical defenders of the true faith for more than 17 centuries have been unanimous in recognizing the 4th beast as the imperial Roman empire of history.

It was this empire during which God set up the Kingdom which Christ established at His first coming.

It was, and is, fulfilled in the gospel which Christ preached.

 

[Chi.C]

Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Historical defenders of the true faith for more than 17 centuries have been unanimous in recognizing the 4th beast as the imperial Roman empire of history.

It was this empire during which God set up the Kingdom which Christ established at His first coming.

It was, and is, fulfilled in the gospel which Christ preached.

I agree. But in Douggg's timeline, the 4th beast is the EU (revived roman empire). The EU is not a hegemon, the beast of revelation is yet to be (and will be Israel) and the beast from the earth is not yet (and is sometime after). I am trying to see Douggg's view of the prophecies.

 

[Douggg]

I agree. But in Douggg's timeline, the 4th beast is the EU (revived roman empire). The EU is not a hegemon, the beast of revelation is yet to be (and will be Israel) and the beast from the earth is not yet (and is sometime after). I am trying to see Douggg's view of the prophecies.

Here is my detailed timeline of end time events. The red line is the critical path of events.

Here is the same thing basically in a vertical form...

 

[grafted branch]

The Antichrist will be one single person. In 1John2:18, John likened them in his day who were leaving Christianity, denying that Jesus is the Son of God, as "antichrists". Not that they were "antichrist who shall come", the singular person that them John was speaking to were already aware that person is coming.

What makes the Antichrist unique is that he will be anointed the King of Israel messiah. That is actually when the person becomes the Antichrist.

little horn>Antichrist>beast

The Antichrist is a spirit which manifested itself in people in the 1st century according to the epistles of John. Insisting the Antichrist is a man yet to be revealed is akin to saying you’re waiting for 2 Revelation to be written. There simply is no new revealing or revelation to come. The only thing we are waiting for is the final coming of Christ on the last day.

 

[Chi.C]

Here is my detailed timeline of end time events. The red line is the the critical path of events.

Nice picture.
So if the 2 witness are within the Rapture anytime era, the 7th seal was opened when? Before the first seal? Have the 2 witnesses been left behind or have been raptured and returned?

The eight heads of the beasts are just kings of the roman empire. It must be during the little horn. The eighth head is the king is after or before the beast(King of Israel) and/or Antichrist?
Your quote from #10
"That way, the person as mentioned in Daniel 7, is as the king of the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire.
And the 7th king, yet to come, in Revelation 17:10. And the 8th king in Revelation 17:11. Are king of the Roman Empire."

 

[Timtofly]

The Antichrist is a spirit which manifested itself in people in the 1st century according to the epistles of John. Insisting the Antichrist is a man yet to be revealed is akin to saying you’re waiting for 2 Revelation to be written. There simply is no new revealing or revelation to come. The only thing we are waiting for is the final coming of Christ on the last day.

The last day was on the Cross. It already happened. The one point preterist seem to refuse to admit. They claim all else happened, but the last day. Well the last day happened 40 years before the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed.

 

[grafted branch]

The last day was on the Cross. It already happened. The one point preterist seem to refuse to admit. They claim all else happened, but the last day. Well the last day happened 40 years before the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed.

Are you saying that Christ will not return in the future?

 

[Timtofly]

Are you saying that Christ will not return in the future?

The Second Coming has not happened yet. Why claim it has? There is a Resurrection on the first day in Revelation 20:4. There is a Day of the Lord, 1000 years that starts with that first day. All I see in Revelation are first days. There is not a promise of a last day, because it cannot be known. Since the last days started 1991 years ago, then there is no particular last day any more.

 

[grafted branch]

The Second Coming has not happened yet. Why claim it has? There is a Resurrection on the first day in Revelation 20:4. There is a Day of the Lord, 1000 years that starts with that first day. All I see in Revelation are first days. There is not a promise of a last day, because it cannot be known. Since the last days started 1991 years ago, then there is no particular last day any more.

Well that’s close to a full preterits view. I think it’s possible there was a coming in 70 AD but I definitely think there is still a final coming.

2 Peter 3:10 leads me to believe there is a last day, obviously the earth still exists today.