• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The Papacy

Status
Not open for further replies.

sunlover1

Beloved, Let us love one another
Nov 10, 2006
26,146
5,348
Under the Shadow of the Almighty
✟102,311.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Then why are you split up into multiple denominations, and why are you all arguing amongst yourselves as to the meaning of various scriptures? You call that "Inspiration"? The empirical evidence proves that this is not how the Holy Spirit works, for if it were, you would all be illuminated equally and be of one mind.
Oh please, dont be a bore TuEs! :kiss:
Why why why indeed.
I could ask the exact same things of you but... 'why?'

You wont convince me that I need to follow your church.
God Himself would have to convince me of that.

For now, I do know that it's no longer I who lives, but Christ in me.
That I am a new creation in Christ Jesus, old things have
passed away and behold! ALL things have become new.
He died for me as surely as for you.
I am my beloved's and He is mine.
I am the apple of His eye!
Behold, what manner of Love is this that the father
has bestowed upon US, that WE should be called
the sons of GOD?!

We all fall short, we all see as through a glass darkly right now TuEs.
One day we will know as we are known.

But we all agree that Jesus is Lord.


God bless you, here's a song I think you'll enjoy :hug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaWGsnDeVac
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yep, the very same...So now lets think about what Paul wrote afterall
when it comes to interpretting scripture how could I or you or anyone else today know to whom to look for the correct interpretation of the Bible?
If you are suggesting that no one can know, then God has given us a worthless book.
Paul writes, "If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual,let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Cor 14:37).The Eunuch had NO idea Phillip was an apostle, so don't bother going there.

Acts 14:23
And when they had ordained to them priests in every church


Apostolic Succession bro. ;)

That is how we know.

2 Tim 2:2
And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also


These men shall be our teachers, those that were taught by the Apostles.
Such as Ignatius and Polycarp and Clement.

Pope Clement I


"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch


"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).


The Martyrdom of Polycarp


"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).
 
Upvote 0

sunlover1

Beloved, Let us love one another
Nov 10, 2006
26,146
5,348
Under the Shadow of the Almighty
✟102,311.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Acts 14:23
And when they had ordained to them priests in every church


Apostolic Succession bro. ;)

That is how we know.

2 Tim 2:2
And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also

2 Timothy, my dear son, be strong through the grace that God gives you in Christ Jesus.
2 You have heard me teach things that have been confirmed by many reliable witnesses.
Now teach these truths to other trustworthy people who will be able to pass them on to others.http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49868848#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49868848#_ftnref1


My pastor speaks like this to us too.
:thumbsup:
He makes us take notes so we can take
what he's taught us, and go teach others.
Well, he dont MAKE us, but he mentions it
often ;)

 
Upvote 0

racer

Contributor
Aug 5, 2003
7,885
364
60
Oklahoma
✟32,229.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Peter is the Pope. It would not matter if the Pope was Bishop of London, Timbuktu or Rome. The Pope has the supremacy, not any geographical location.
And if you close your eyes and click your red slippers together a hundred times whilst you utter "Peter is the Pope," it still won't make it true. :p
 
Upvote 0

Trento

Senior Veteran
Apr 12, 2002
4,387
575
AZ. Between the Holy Cross river and the Saint Rit
Visit site
✟30,034.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Historical? right! while Rome claims its authority has been known for all ages, it is clear from the early christian community that while Rome was respected it surely was NOT given any kind universal authority and nothing in the first couple hundred years after our Lords ascension that was written gives any other indication than that of respect, mainly because it adhered closely at that time to the teaching of the apostles
meaning Paul and Peter.


To me the evidence that the early church considered the bishop of Rome to be the leader of the universal church seems overwhelming. The epistle of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians is just one case in point. Notice this quote from Clement who was apparently the immediate successor of Peter as bishop of Rome:


Quote:
The church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the church of God sojourning at Corinth, to them that are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves, we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us; and especially to that shameful and detestable sedition, utterly abhorrent to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-confident persons have kindled to such a pitch of frenzy
Now why would Corinth in the East be appealling to Rome for guidance in how to deal with sedition if it were not for the fact that they all recognised that Clement of Rome was of superior authority and might have the power to rule on how to resolve their differences. The letter of Clement is an incredible document. He goes through many christian principles which basically revolve around humility, doing good works, doing things in their correct order. But here is where it becomes particularly pertinent to our issue of the primacy of the bishop of Rome where in Chapter 43 he says this.


Quote:
Chapter 43. Moses of Old Stilled the Contention Which Arose Concerning the Priestly Dignity.

And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God, appointed those [ministers] before mentioned, when the blessed Moses also, a faithful servant in all his house, noted down in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him, and when the other prophets also followed him, bearing witness with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For, when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood, and the tribes were contending among themselves as to which of them should be adorned with that glorious title, he commanded the twelve princes of the tribes to bring him their rods, each one being inscribed with the name of the tribe. And he took them and bound them [together], and sealed them with the rings of the princes of the tribes, and laid them up in the tabernacle of witness on the table of God. And having shut the doors of the tabernacle, he sealed the keys, as he had done the rods, and said to them, Men and brethren, the tribe whose rod shall blossom has God chosen to fulfil the office of the priesthood, and to minister unto Him. And when the morning was come, he assembled all Israel, six hundred thousand men, and showed the seals to the princes of the tribes, and opened the tabernacle of witness, and brought forth the rods. And the rod of Aaron was found not only to have blossomed, but to bear fruit upon it. What think ye, beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would happen? Undoubtedly he knew; but he acted thus, that there might be no sedition in Israel, and that the name of the true and only God might be glorified; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
So what is the issue going on way back then in this very ancient church? RIVALRY AMONGST THE PRIESTHOOD. And then Clement demonstrates from the Old Testament how essential it was that one tribe should be in preeminence to avoid rivalry. God divinely agreed with Moses judgement and caused the rod of Aaron to bud. So what do we conclude from this? That God has shown clearly in history that the Bishop of Rome has budded with divine authority to settle rivalries amongst the priesthood and in doing so has borne astonishing fruit throughout the ages. Utterly incredible. 12 princes then who were required to yield to the High Priest Aaron; and in New Testament 12 apostles of these 12 Tribes James 1:1 who were likewise required to yield to one of those 12 bishops. So why then in these last days don't they submit, when the pattern is so apparent from the Old Testament?

Clement then carries on with essential commands that the way to settle these seditions is through obedience to the presbyters. Now right at the end in the benediction he says


Quote:
Send back speedily to us in peace and with joy these our messengers to you: Claudius Ephebus and Valerius Bito, with Fortunatus; that they may the sooner announce to us the peace and harmony we so earnestly desire and long for [among you], and that we may the more quickly rejoice over the good order re-established among you. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, and with all everywhere that are the called of God through Him, by whom be to Him glory, honour, power, majesty, and eternal dominion, from everlasting to everlasting. Amen.
Now this is a nice way of putting it but clearly Ephebus, Bito and Fortunatus were emissaries from Rome who were sent with this letter to ensure that peace and harmony and discipline were restored in Corinth and who would not be returning with news to Rome until order had been restored at Corinth. Clement makes constant mention of presbyters at Corinth in his letter but the fact that there is no mention of a bishop causes scholars to conclude that a bishop was appointed as a consequence of this letter and that the ecclesiatical authority for such an appointment was the bishop of the Church of God sojourning at Rome.

Now the other thing to remember that this document was written incredibly early in Christianity. We are talking 70-90AD so we are looking at very ancient and yet well established concepts of authority that must have been handed directly from the apostles and to which Clement is merely adding support and reinforcing in order to settle a serious schism. Also Clement mentions in numerous places how utterly abhorrent and detestable sedition and schism is to the body of Christ. Why then are we in schism?
Another example this time from about 150AD where the Bishop of Corinth Dionysius says the following about Pope Soter who had been sending alms to Corinth from Rome.

Quote:
For this has been your custom from the beginning, to do good to all the brethren in many ways, and to send alms to many Churches in different cities, now relieving the poverty of those who asked aid, now assisting the brethren in the mines by the alms you send, Romans keeping up the traditional custom of Romans, which your blessed bishop, Soter, has not only maintained, but has even increased, by affording to the brethren the abundance which he has supplied, and by comforting with blessed words the brethren who came to him, as a father his children.
So here again we get a deliberate statement of a bishop of Corinth ( a very senior office of the church) referring to the bishop of Rome as A FATHER OF HIS CHILDREN. It shows Christians from all over the known world coming to Rome making their appeals, just as happens to this very day.

Dionysius also remembers in his letter to Pope Soter the previous letter Clement sent from Rome which we have just read from. He says
Quote:
"Today, therefore, we have kept the holy Lord's day, on which we have read your letter, which we shall always have to read and be admonished, even as the former letter which was written to us by the ministry of Clement."
So the letters from Clement of Rome and Soter of Rome were regarded with great reverence and were continually read in the church of Corinth for ongoing admonition and direction. The mere fact that the church in Corinth still exists in 150AD and has its own bishop after being in such a fractious state not 70 years previous is a testimony of how effective the intervention of the bishop of Rome had been.

These example is not just a matter of interpretation of how it might seem to be the case if it is read in a certain way. It is a clear observation of history. By denying it you are following a typical protestant tact of just avoiding the clear inferences of history.
 
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟27,453.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Acts 14:23
And when they had ordained to them priests in every church
2 Tim 2:2
And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also
I disagree with your interpretation of these scriptures your using to quantify your position of who should interpret scripture for us.:sorry:
 
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟27,453.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Dionysius also remembers in his letter to Pope Soter the previous letter Clement sent from Rome which we have just read from. He says
Quote:
"Today, therefore, we have kept the holy Lord's day, on which we have read your letter, which we shall always have to read and be admonished, even as the former letter which was written to us by the ministry of Clement."
I've already exposed this on previous threads to be a false and forged interpretation...That you will not find anywhere reputable...

Trento why don't you ever double check your sources you posts are very untrustworthy.
 
Upvote 0

Trento

Senior Veteran
Apr 12, 2002
4,387
575
AZ. Between the Holy Cross river and the Saint Rit
Visit site
✟30,034.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟27,453.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
YOUR POST
Dionysius also remembers in his letter to Pope Soter the previous letter Clement sent from Rome which we have just read from. He says
Quote:
"Today, therefore, we have kept the holy Lord's day, on which we have read your letter, which we shall always have to read and be admonished, even as the former letter which was written to us by the ministry of Clement."

Below shows the LINK you double checked...The translation above changes the whole character of Dionysius' comment
“To-day we have passed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.”
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟27,453.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Have you checked the original text before deciding what's shameful and what is not?
Yes polo and I went through this whole translation thing I beleive in our formal debate along with a number of times on here...Fact is trento knows that already!
Furthermore you won't even find a single catholic university translation like trentos...
 
Upvote 0

Trento

Senior Veteran
Apr 12, 2002
4,387
575
AZ. Between the Holy Cross river and the Saint Rit
Visit site
✟30,034.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
YOUR POST


Below shows the LINK you double checked...The translation above changes the whole character of Dionysius' comment
“To-day we have passed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.”


Woud you please read the side notes given with the actual Epistle.

Of Dionysius himself (who is, without foundation, called a martyr by the Greek Church, and a confessor by the Latin Church) we know only what we are told by Eusebius, for Jerome (de vir ill. 27) adds nothing to the account given in this chapter. In his Chron. Eusebius mentions Dionysius in connection with the eleventh year of Marcus Aurelius. According to Eusebius’ statement in this same chapter, Dionysius’ Epistle to the Romans was addressed to the bishop Soter, and as Eusebius had the epistle before him, there is no reason for doubting his report. Soter was bishop from about 167 to 175 (see above, chap. 19, note 4), and therefore the statements of the Chron. and the History are in accord.
9. There is extant also another epistle written by Dionysius to the Romans, and addressed to Soter, On Soter, see chap. 19, note 2.
This practice of the Roman church combined with other causes to secure it that position of influence and prominence which resulted in the primacy of its bishop, and finally in the papacy. The position of the Roman church, as well as its prosperity and numerical strength, gave it early a feeling that it was called upon in an especial way to exercise oversight and to care for weaker sister churches, and thus its own good offices helped to promote its influence and its power. who was bishop at that time. We cannot do better than to subjoin some passages from this epistle, in which he commends the practice of the Romans which has been retained down to the persecution in our own days. His words are as follows:
10. “For from the beginning it has been your practice to do good to all the brethren in various ways, and to send contributions to many churches in every city. Thus relieving the want of the needy, and making provision for the brethren in the mines by the gifts which you have sent from the beginning, you Romans keep up the hereditary customs of the Romans, which your blessed bishop Soter has not only maintained, but also added to, furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints, and encouraging the brethren from abroad with blessed words, as a loving father his children
11. In this same epistle he makes mention also of Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians, On Clement’s Epistle to the Corinthians, see Bk. III. chap. 16. showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows: “To-day we have passed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.”
 
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟27,453.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.”
draw advice NOT be admonished...
Thanks for making my point.
 
Upvote 0

Trento

Senior Veteran
Apr 12, 2002
4,387
575
AZ. Between the Holy Cross river and the Saint Rit
Visit site
✟30,034.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Yes polo and I went through this whole translation thing I beleive in our formal debate along with a number of times on here...Fact is trento knows that already!
Furthermore you won't even find a single catholic university translation like trentos...


All I know is that it is not my translation. It stands as it is here.
 
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟27,453.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
you posted:
"Today, therefore, we have kept the holy Lord's day, on which we have read your letter, which we shall always have to read and be admonished, even as the former letter which was written to us by the ministry of Clement."
CCEL:
“To-day we have passed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.”

SEE THE DIFFERENCE???????????????????????
 
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟27,453.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Here is your difference.



That whole cut n paste was not only senseless but useless as well...

Is it impossible for you to ever admit a lack of follow through or a lack of discrimination?
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
[/i]
2 Timothy, my dear son, be strong through the grace that God gives you in Christ Jesus.
2 You have heard me teach things that have been confirmed by many reliable witnesses.
Now teach these truths to other trustworthy people who will be able to pass them on to others.



My pastor speaks like this to us too.
:thumbsup:
He makes us take notes so we can take
what he's taught us, and go teach others.
Well, he dont MAKE us, but he mentions it
often ;)


As those taught by the Apsotles said, I wish to be taught by the church that the Apostles taught and be sheep to the Shepards that are in a line to the Apsotles.

I am sure your pastor is a good person and someone you like. But I have different criteria.

:cool:
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And if you close your eyes and click your red slippers together a hundred times whilst you utter "Peter is the Pope," it still won't make it true. :p


Does this mean you live in OZ? ;) :p
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.