The Orthodox view on Transubstantiation

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MariaRegina

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Dear friends in TAW:

My dear Internet friend, Brian Daniel, asked a question over in OBOB about transubstantiation which I will quote here, as I too would like to hear what the TAW scholars have to say:

Brian Daniel said:
Question about transubstantiation

This is a question seeking nothing more than the Roman Catholic response to this argument against transubstantiation. I am not attacking the doctrine in this post, but I am looking for information to evaluate the strengths of the argument.

The argument was that the omnipresence of Christ's physical body and blood in transubstantiation confuses the two natures of Christ by applying an attribute of the divine nature to the human nature. According to Chalcedon, Jesus is one Christ, with two unconfused natures. What arguments are there against this, and what do you think are the strengths and weaknesses of this argument? I promise that I won't give a rebuttal.

If you will refer to our previous TAW thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t92705&page=1
http://www.christianforums.com/t44752&page=6

You will discover that the Orthodox also accept Transubstantiation, but not defined to the point as the Catholics do. With this point of view, what arguments do the Orthodox have here?

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth
 

readerpaul

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With respect, the nature of the question and response provided indicates why this is a question we shouldn't get into. Orthodoxy doesn't like the word "transubstantiation" precisely because it gets almost immediately into the thickets of scholastic philosophy. As defined by our Western brothers and sisters, transubstantiation is not accepted by the Orthodox Church.

The Holy Eucharist is one of the "mysteries," because ultimately we can't explain how it "works"---any more than we can explain any of the miracles of the New Testament. We can't understand it and we can't explain it. We believe it.

Don't get me wrong---I'm certainly not condemning anyone who wishes to speculate about this---but just think it's ultimately fruitless. The bread and wine really become Our Lord's Body and Blood---but how, why, when all that happens, I can't explain, and in trying to explain a miracle, I may unintentionally distort or seem to "limit" God.
 
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countrymousenc

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Most of what I have heard and read agrees with what readerpaul posted. Transubstantiation is considered rationalistic, an attempt to explain something that is ineffable. Also, because it is grounded in Aristotelian world-view, it is subject to being very successfully disputed by science, which I think is another good reason to avoid it. Perhaps if it helps someone initially to accept Christ's real presence... but, imho, one shouldn't cling to it.
 
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Stone_Lock_Comanche

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Wisdom from Saint John of Kronsdat: Why should it be wonderful if God himself, the creator of all things visible and invisible, transforms, transubstantiates bread and wine into his most pure body and his own most pure blood? In these- in the bread and wine- the son of God does not become incarnate, for he was already once incarnate, and this is sufficient unto endless ages; but he is incarnate in the very same flesh in which he was before incarnate, in the same manner as he multiplied the five loaves and fed with these five loaves several thousands of people. There are a great many mysteries in nature which my mind cannot grasp, although they have concrete forms, yet they exist, with their mysteries. So also, in this sacrament of the life giving Body and Blood, it is a mystery for me, how the bread and wine are made into the body and blood of the Lord himself, but the mystery still exists, although it is incomprehensible to me. My creator (I am only His clay, for God formed me of flesh and blood and endued me with a spirit), as the most wise infinitely Almighty God, has innumerable mysteries: I my self am a mystery, as the work of his hands. For my soul there is the spirit of the Lord, and for my soul and body there are His Body and Blood.
 
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MariaRegina

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http://www.christianforums.com/t92705

Please go to the above posted url ....

This is taken from a post I previously posted in TAW in July of 2003:

I asked a devout scholarly Greek Orthodox Priest, who prefers to remain unnamed, about the local councils of the Greek Orthodox Church and their effect on the life, belief and practices in the Greek Orthodox parishes specifically in relation to the Holy Mysteries. Here is the complete message he sent me without any deletions, corrections or additions:

Greek Orthodox Priest said:

<1. The sentiment expressed at the Council is consistent with the Orthodox Faith. Going back to St. Basil himself, it is the Faith that bread and wine become truly and really the Holy and Precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.>

<2. The word "transubstantiation", taken in the sense that the bread and wine are truly transformed as being actual Body and Blood of Christ (through the grace of the Holy Spirit) is not un-Orthodox. However, it is not consistent with Orthodox thinking that the word "transubstantiation" should be taken to mean a "chemical or physical" change (though, in some way undetected) of the bread and wine into actual flesh or blood-plasma. This latter "scientific" way of thinking was never advanced by the Holy Fathers and is truly inconsistent with the Orthodox view of "mysterion".>
 
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Stone_Lock_Comanche

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True it is that often our evil and blind flesh, or the prince of the world, who dwells in our simple flesh , whispers to us that the sacrament contains only bread and wine and not the very Body and Blood of our Lord himself, and sends sight, taste and feeling as his crafty witnesses to this. But we do not allow ourselves to listen to these calumnies and reason thus. To thee, Lord, everything is possible: Thou createst the flesh of men, animals, fishes, birds, reptiles, of all creatures, Is it possible that for Thyslef, Thou, "Who art everywhere, and fillest all things," will not create flesh? not only this, Thou changest a dead substance into a living one, for instance Moses' rod into the serpent -and there is nothing impossible for thee. Canst Thou not, therefore, create flesh for thyself out of bread and wine, which are so near to our flesh , being used for our food and drink, and thus converted into our own flesh and blood? Thou dost not test our faith more than it can bear, for thou didst not transubstantiate a lump of earth ino thy most-pure body, but white bread, soft, clean, pleasant to the taste; and thou dost not create thy blood from water, but from wine, called in holy scripture " the blood of the grape", corresponding in colour to that of blood, agreeable to the taste, and rejoicing the heart of man. Thou knowest our infirmity, the weakness of our faith, and therefore Thou condescendest to employ in the sacrament of Thy Body and Blood substances most suitable to them. Let us therefore believe that under the form of bread and wine we communicate of the true Body and true Blood of our Lord; that in the mystery of holy communion, Jesus Christ Himself will dwell with us "always, even unto the end of the world"
 
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Stone_Lock_Comanche

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When the matter relates to God's mysteries, do not inwardly ask; HOW CAN THIS BE? You do not know how God created the whole world from nothing; you cannot and may not know here either how God mysteriously works. Gods mystery must remain a mystery for you, because you are not God, and cannot know all that is known to the eternally wise, Almighty God. You are the work of his hands: his most insignificant creature. Remember that there was a time when there was nothing and that afterward all that now exists was created out of nothing by the word of God. " Without him not anything was made that was made."
 
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readerpaul

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Aria:

Your Greek Orthodox priest says it all: if transubstantiation merely means the transformation of the Holy Gifts into the Savior's Body and Blood, there would be no problem. But transubstantiation means much more than that. It would be unwise and unfair for me, a non-Catholic, to try to explain what Roman Catholic dogma is, but it does involve ideas like substance and accidents and all kinds of philosophical categories and definitions that Orthodoxy just doesn't get into.

I do think it fair to say that if you define transubstantiation strictly, then strictly speaking Orthodoxy rejects it.
 
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Oblio

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DjHurricane said:
Orthodox believe in transubstantiation too but some choose to reject the Roman terminology even though the content is agreed with.

If you mean the content of the doctrine, you err. This is not the position of the Orthodox Church. You may personally believe it (and this may be allowed in the Church, I am unsure) but as was stated before the content of the RC doctrine of Transubstantiation is NOT Orthodox.
 
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Rick of Wessex

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From Bishop Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Church":

The Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

As the words of the Epiclesis make abundantly plain, the Orthodox Church believes that after consecration the bread and wine become in very truth the Body and Blood of Christ: they are not mere symbols, but the reality. But while Orthodoxy has always insisted on the reality of the change, it has never attempted to explain the manner of the change: the Eucharistic Prayer in the Liturgy simply uses the neutral term metaballo, to &#8216;turn about,&#8217; &#8216;change,&#8217; or &#8216;alter.&#8217;

It is true that in the seventeenth century not only individual Orthodox writers, but Orthodox Councils such as that of Jerusalem in 1672, made use of the Latin term &#8216;transubstantiation&#8217; (in Greek, metousiosis), together with the Scholastic distinction between Substance and Accidents

(In medieval philosophy a distinction is drawn between the substance or essence (i.e. that which constitutes a thing, which makes it what it is), and the accidents or qualities that belong to a substance (i.e. everything that can be perceived by the senses &#8212; size, weight, shape, color, taste, smell, and so on). A substance is something existing by itself (ens per se), an accident can only exist by inhering in something else (ens in alio). Applying this distinction to the Eucharist, we arrive at the doctrine of Transubstantiation. According to this doctrine, at the moment of consecration in the Mass there is a change of substance, but the accidents continue to exist as before: the substances of bread and wine are changed into those of the Body and Blood of Christ, but the accidents of bread and wine &#8212; i.e. the qualities of color, taste, smell, and so forth &#8212; continue miraculously to exist and to be perceptible to the senses).

But at the same time the Fathers of Jerusalem were careful to add that the use of these terms does not constitute an explanation of the manner of the change, since this is a mystery and must always remain incomprehensible (Doubtless many Roman Catholics would say the same). Yet despite this disclaimer, many Orthodox felt that Jerusalem had committed itself too unreservedly to the terminology of Latin Scholasticism, and it is significant that when in 1838 the Russian Church issued a translation of the Acts of Jerusalem, while retaining the word transubstantiation, it carefully paraphrased the rest of the passage in such a way that the technical terms Substance and Accidents were not employed (This is an interesting example of the way in which the Church is &#8216;selective&#8217; in its acceptance of the decrees of Local Councils (see above, p. 211)).

Today Orthodox writers still use the word transubstantiation, but they insist on two points: first, there are many other words which can with equal legitimacy be used to describe the consecration, and, among them all, the term transubstantiation enjoys no unique or decisive authority; secondly, its use does not commit theologians to the acceptance of Aristotelian philosophical concepts. The general position of Orthodoxy in the whole matter is clearly summed up in the Longer Catechism, written by Philaret, Metropolitan of Moscow (1782-1867), and authorized by the Russian Church in 1839:

Question: How are we to understand the word transubstantiation?

Answer: &#8230;The word transubstantiation is not to be taken to define the manner in which the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord; for this none can understand but God; but only thus much is signified, that the bread truly, really, and substantially becomes the very true Body of the Lord, and the wine the very Blood of the Lord (English translation in R. W. Blackmore, The Doctrine of the Russian Church, London, 1845, p. 92).

And the Catechism continues with a quotation from john of Damascus: &#8216;If you enquire how this happens, it is enough for you to learn that it is through the Holy Spirit ... we know nothing more than this, that the word of God is true, active, and omnipotent, but in its manner of operation unsearchable (On the Orthodox Faith, 4, 13 (P.G. 94, 1145A)).
 
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gzt

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In other words, it seems to me that a good summary is that we believe that the bread and wine really and truly change into the very body and blood of Christ, but afterwards they still look, feel, taste, are digested like, etc bread and wine. We use the term "transubstantiation" insofar as it means that, though we do not elaborate on the manner of change or the metaphysics of the whole thing.
 
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DjHurricane

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Oblio said:
If you mean the content of the doctrine, you err. This is not the position of the Orthodox Church. [...]the RC doctrine of Transubstantiation is NOT Orthodox.
hmmmm I am not sure, I know a lot of priests like to say they don't believe in transubstantiation but when i explain the concept to them without the name they always say that is correct.
 
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Matrona

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DjHurricane said:
hmmmm I am not sure, I know a lot of priests like to say they don't believe in transubstantiation but when i explain the concept to them without the name they always say that is correct.
Then you are not explaining the concept completely or correctly.
 
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Stone_Lock_Comanche

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Matthias said:
Who are YOU to judge if someone is explaining something completely or correctly? Don't worry about her.
NO Orthodox Priest would agree with or say that he knows exactly how the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of our lord. Which is what the Roman Catholic Legalistic doctrine tries to do. Like wise with all of there other distorted doctrines such as there view on, Salvation, their view on the Theotokos, their view on the head of the church, on the fall of man, on the crucifixion of Christ, on sin, on repentance, on death, on priest marital status, etc.
 
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Matrona

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Stone_Lock_Comanche said:
NO Orthodox Priest would agree with or say that he knows exactly how the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of our lord. Which is what the Roman Catholic Legalistic doctrine tries to do. Like wise with all of there other distorted doctrines such as there view on, Salvation, their view on the Theotokos, their view on the head of the church, on the fall of man, on the crucifixion of Christ, on sin, on repentance, on death, on priest marital status, etc.
Thank you, Stone Lock, for explaining that for the heterodox here. You're a jewel. :)
 
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Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

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I have an idea.:idea: How about we make a new forum rule that states that if a person makes a comment about priests that have done or said X, or an Orthodox Church that has done X, that person must list the names of the priests who they are referring to, the name of the parish(es), and whether or not that parish is cannonical. It is too easy for someone to just say something like that to make their own opinions sound more valid. This could be a dangerous thing, because a person could make up anything, claim that priests and EOC's are doing/saying it, and then Orthodoxy gets misrepresented to inquirers. How about we start putting our money where our mouth is???
 
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Oblio

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I loath rules

Unless they are absolutely necessary :)

I think history shows that when someone here claims to speak for what the Church believes when in fact she does not believe it or has no opinion, they get rebuked pronto.
 
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gzt

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I'm against that idea, though I do agree some accountability is needed. First, some people are concerned [rightly or wrongly] about retaining some degree of anonymity on the internet - especially on a site this large which is accessible to all. Naming a priest one has personal contact with indicates a location. Second, the priest may have misspoke, been misinterpreted, or misremembered. Attaching a name to such a quote is unfair unless there is something in print to justify it. It's not fair to the priest, either, even if he did say it. For most claims, I do not think establishing whether priests really did say such-and-such is more important than these privacy concerns.

As for transubstantiation: there's a difference between the basic concept of transubstantiation [that it really is changed into the body and blood of Christ and only the perception of it as bread and wine persists] and the full RC doctrine of transubstantiation. Any Orthodox priest would certainly agree with the concept behind the doctrine, the question is whether the priest would agree with the full explication of the RC doctrine.
 
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